Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009
GRANNY RUINING YOUR VIBES? CUT HER ASS OUT OF YOUR LIFE!


This seems to have garnered enough interest to deserve it's own thread.

There seems to be a general tendency of many posters here to claim that their Republican (most common example, but you can substitute it with your local flavor) family members, friends or co-workers are not bad people despite belonging to, supporting and/or voting for a party that seemingly no poster here disagrees is a fascist party.

I (and at least some others?) disagree.

Personally I believe that if you have failed to convert them into being, you know, not fascists, you need to sever all relations to them to send the message that support for fascism is not acceptable in society.

The only exception is if you are financially dependent on them. That's it, in my book. The other way around? Boot them out.

I'd say people already seem to know where I am coming from, but if it isn't clear, I am willing to elaborate.

Some relevant articles:

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/618457/

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN27I16E

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/27/928209548/dude-i-m-done-when-politics-tears-families-and-friendships-apart

https://theconversation.com/amp/why-friendships-are-falling-apart-over-politics-146821

https://dbknews.com/2020/11/09/election-2020-politics-friendship-relationship/

A thread for more general discussion of family members with abhorrent political views and actions:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3938820&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Again, America focused because duh. Also I feel United States has an especially big issue with this. But I have personally cut out many people out of my life and am not American, and I imagine I am not the only one. So feel free to talk about other countries as well.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Dec 3, 2021

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

selec
Sep 6, 2003

Better Politics Through Intimidation and Blackmail!TM

(Receipts!)

Are democratic voters responsible for all the poo poo the party gets up to? Or is the duopoly such a bottleneck that innumerable political tendencies get sorted into one of two big buckets?

Because if so, I need democrats to renounce Bill Clinton as a rapist non grata to be able to look them in the eye, and also swear fealty to the insurance companies the party has leashed itself to.

The assumptions built into this thread and OP are distinctly not in touch with how American political culture works, imho, but letís sally forth.

Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004



DarkCrawler posted:

l
Personally I believe that if you have failed to convert them into being, you know, not fascists, you need to sever all relations to them to send the message that support for fascism is not acceptable in society.

I question whether this message will be received. There may have been a time when such social pressures could be effective, but with the internet existing you are just cutting off a source of competing info and pushing them deeper into echo chambers.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009
GRANNY RUINING YOUR VIBES? CUT HER ASS OUT OF YOUR LIFE!


selec posted:

Are democratic voters responsible for all the poo poo the party gets up to? Or is the duopoly such a bottleneck that innumerable political tendencies get sorted into one of two big buckets?

Because if so, I need democrats to renounce Bill Clinton as a rapist non grata to be able to look them in the eye, and also swear fealty to the insurance companies the party has leashed itself to.

The assumptions built into this thread and OP are distinctly not in touch with how American political culture works, imho, but letís sally forth.

I would say that "rape" is not an irrevocable part of the party platform of the Democratic Party, used in it's politics to gather supporters and ascribed to by the vast majority of its' voters.

Harold Fjord posted:

I question whether this message will be received. There may have been a time when such social pressures could be effective, but with the internet existing you are just cutting off a source of competing info and pushing them deeper into echo chambers.

I don't honestly care whether the fascists themselves receive that message, more the society around them. What I would question is that any info can compete with their echo chambers at all.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Dec 3, 2021

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP




Is there data to back up that this helps un-fasch people or at least cause the movements to lose power oris this more about personal mental and physical health?

FLIPADELPHIA
Apr 27, 2007

Heavy Shit


Grimey Drawer

Anecdotally I spent a decade or so doing everything I could on social media to engage right wing friends, family, coworkers on issues and sway them away from fascism- using the softest kid gloves imaginable- appealing to their religious sensibilities, etc. I didn't win over anyone and when I think about all that wasted time, it does make me feel some regret.

I've since severed from all the open fascists in my life and I'm much happier without all that negavity. Will this push those people further to the right? I highly doubt it because if anything, their interactions with me almost always resulted in insane doubling down anyway. Even if it does though, I don't particularly care because it's not my job to invest time, effort, and emotional labor into realigning the moral compasses of adults. I have actual children that need that guidance. Adult fascists aren't worth the trouble given their active choice to continually drink from the fire house of fascist propaganda. They have agency. I don't know how to teach them to care about other people.

FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Dec 3, 2021

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP




FLIPADELPHIA posted:

Anecdotally I spent a decade or so doing everything I could on social media to engage right wing friends, family, coworkers on issues and sway them away from fascism- using the softest kid gloves imaginable- appealing to their religious sensibilities, etc. I didn't win over anyone and when I think about all that wasted time, it does make me feel some regret.

I've since severed from all the open fascists in my life and I'm much happier without all that negavity. Will this push those people further to the right? I highly doubt it because if anything, their interactions with me almost always resulted in insane doubling down anyway. Even if it does though, I don't particularly care because it's not my job to invest time, effort, and emotional labor into realigning the moral compasses of adults. I have actual children that need that guidance. Adult fascists aren't worth the trouble given their active choice to continually drink from the fire house of fascist propaganda. They have agency. I don't know how to teach them to care about other people.

The whole reason I ask for data is because I've seen it work. I've seen it not work too. Hopefully there is data and studies by sociologists and similar fields on how this works or doesn't work. And there are many personal reasons for not engaging with lovely people in your life but that's an E/N discussion. In D&D I'm more interested in the question "Does this help the bigger picture? Is it effective or a waste of resources to engage? Can you figure out who is and isn't beyond being changed?" And I'm not sure if anyone even knows but I hope there is some data out there.

Lib and let die
Aug 26, 2004

There's a lot of products that you can buy with money but my posts are the only limited product, that only you can have.



I'm really interested in the advice you might have for people who, due to circumstances, need the aid of Republicans in their lives. When I was in the hospital and at home recovering from a grand mal and shoulder surgery due to injuries sustained while seizing, my wife and I, full stop, would have been homeless if it weren't for the aid of my Trump voting father, sister, father-in-law, and mother-in-law. My wife was a non-salaried worker, meaning any time she took to take me to dr's appointments, physical therapy, diagnostic sessions, making sure I don't fall and grievously injure myself while showering, help me navigate my home and accomplish some tasks that would be considerably more difficult/dangerous to attempt one-armed, and all sorts of various other things that a lot of people seem to take for granted (because I took my ability to do them for granted until I couldn't anymore) would be unpaid time - we would be living in South Florida on a single income of $50,000/yr, where the average rent is ~$1600.

If we'd cut all those people out of our lives, I submit that I'd either still only have the use of one arm, would not have my necessary seizure medication available to me (you need to be able to see a doctor to get Keppra!), or we'd be homeless because we couldn't pay the rent because my wife wouldn't be able to work for the months that it took me to recover.

I haven't seen an argument for "you need to sever" that doesn't stem from some level of conscious or unconscious privilege of being, well, privileged.

Terminal autist
May 17, 2018

Endorsed by:
Pentecoastal Elites!
fart_man_69!
Terminal autist!
Ruzihm!
Judakel!
Dixon Chisholm!
Nix Panicus!
Neurolimal!


Can someone give me a timeline on when every republican became a fascist? Like rascist and lovely sure thats a long record going back decades but what specfic date did they become a fascist movement?

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009
GRANNY RUINING YOUR VIBES? CUT HER ASS OUT OF YOUR LIFE!


Lib and let die posted:

I'm really interested in the advice you might have for people who, due to circumstances, need the aid of Republicans in their lives. When I was in the hospital and at home recovering from a grand mal and shoulder surgery due to injuries sustained while seizing, my wife and I, full stop, would have been homeless if it weren't for the aid of my Trump voting father, sister, father-in-law, and mother-in-law. My wife was a non-salaried worker, meaning any time she took to take me to dr's appointments, physical therapy, diagnostic sessions, making sure I don't fall and grievously injure myself while showering, help me navigate my home and accomplish some tasks that would be considerably more difficult/dangerous to attempt one-armed, and all sorts of various other things that a lot of people seem to take for granted (because I took my ability to do them for granted until I couldn't anymore) would be unpaid time - we would be living in South Florida on a single income of $50,000/yr, where the average rent is ~$1600.

If we'd cut all those people out of our lives, I submit that I'd either still only have the use of one arm, would not have my necessary seizure medication available to me (you need to be able to see a doctor to get Keppra!), or we'd be homeless because we couldn't pay the rent because my wife wouldn't be able to work for the months that it took me to recover.

I haven't seen an argument for "you need to sever" that doesn't stem from some level of conscious or unconscious privilege of being, well, privileged.

Sounds like financial dependence for me. Check the first post.

Darkrenown
Jul 18, 2012
please give me anything to talk about besides the fact that democrats are allowing millions of americans to be evicted from their homes

Lib and let die posted:

I'm really interested in the advice you might have for people who, due to circumstances, need the aid of Republicans in their lives.

Doesn't the OP cover this? "The only exception is if you are financially dependent on them."

Anyway, unrelated to the above quote, I wanted to tell the thread that the :sever: emote exists.

Lib and let die
Aug 26, 2004

There's a lot of products that you can buy with money but my posts are the only limited product, that only you can have.



I guess I don't have much to add then, so long as people understand that being able to sever is, in itself, a form of biasing privilege. :)

Bifner McDoogle
Mar 31, 2006

"Life unworthy of life" (German: Lebensunwertes Leben) is a pragmatic liberal designation for the segments of the populace which they view as having no right to continue existing, due to the expense of extending them basic human dignity.


DarkCrawler posted:

Sounds like financial dependence for me. Check the first post.

I think this really brushes aside what Lib and Let Die is getting at. I suspect that he didn't exactly plan on having a seizure in the first place.

Financial dependence is unpredictable. I got epilepsy that is under control (for now) and my husband has HIV which is under control (for now) so we can both work, live independently and even help out the homeless & whatnot. That just a I get for the now. Personal finances and personal ideology are unpredictable and it would be risky both financially and emotionally to rob myself of a personally meaningful relationship. If they won't shut the gently caress up and are being abusive, that's very different.

I get where the OP is coming from. My husband was the gay son of a fundamentalist preacher and has stayed in touch even though he was a tremendous peice of poo poo. But my husband called the covid pandemic years before it happened. Now his trump-voting disphit dad has enormous respect for him and advocates for vaccines more than some LPNs in his family do.

selec
Sep 6, 2003

Better Politics Through Intimidation and Blackmail!TM

(Receipts!)

Just seems like a recipe for advancing the cause of capitalist alienation and subordination to ideologues that do nothing to help you.

If they cause you emotional distress, you should limit or place boundaries on anyone regardless of their political beliefs.

But if I love grandma and she loves me and we donít discuss politics, what is gained? Itís extremely difficult to change peoples minds, and if in doing so I weaken or destroy previously healthy relationships, well, what are the democrats going to do for me?

Iím sitting here completely isolated in a red state? No more family I can talk to. No more support systems. For a guy who said nothing will fundamentally change. Well some things changed; I managed to completely isolate myself thanks to the advice of people on the internet.

Emotional support is as important as financial support, maybe even more so in some cases.

Pentecoastal Elites
Feb 27, 2007



darkcrawler lives thousands of miles away from the nearest republican

anyway none of this will ever do anything except deprive you of a relationship with whomever you're cutting out and finally and completely abandoned your family member to a propaganda apparatus. If you're unable to compete with the multi-billion dollar mystification machine, kicking them out of your life is not going to "show them the light", nor the people around them, nor "society". This is all just more of the same old dogshit ~personal responsibility~ approach to politics that is the hallmark of conservatism that guys like the OP claim to hate so much: we could get rid of the republicans and everything would finally get better if you just donated more voted blue severed ties with grandma. Everyone will see that I participated in a peaceful march called my congressman cut my dad out of my life and it'll start a movement! Total and complete mystification.

For a forum so obsessed with hating the neighboring forum of ostensible doompilled nihilists, it's legitimately still pretty shocking to me that seemingly none of you can recognize this fully unhinged position of amputating your loved ones from your life in full recognition that it will not actually do anything. For the purposes of, what? Being Right About Politics? Yeah I haven't seen my mother's face in twenty years but guess what bucko, she was a friggin' putin loving trump voter, chief! I'm antifa! I'm saving our democracy! gently caress that old broad! She'll die alone but I'm right. My children will never meet their grandmother but I'm right. That's what really matters!

anyway I am genuinely sorry for those of you that are so fully mystified by the hideous farce of American electoral politics that you're engaging in what I think most normal people would consider significant self-harm. I'm more sorry for your families who have to deal with your profoundly hosed up rear end because they had the bad luck of growing up in a specific area or religious community and sent you to college or whatever.

Pentecoastal Elites
Feb 27, 2007



selec posted:

If they cause you emotional distress, you should limit or place boundaries on anyone regardless of their political beliefs.

something that has come up over and over again in these discussions is conflating "voting for republicans" with "physically or emotionally abusive to me". Plenty of D voters are just as emotionally abusive. Hell, plenty of self-identified socialists and communists are abusive!

There are reasons to cut someone out of your life and "didn't vote for the good politics guys I like" isn't a good one

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005

BAD FAITH TROLL: "Anytime I get bored at work I just argue with the first person I see in whatever the first thread I click on is."

Buglord

World is simple, black and white, good guys and bad guys. No nuance. right?

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Pentecoastal Elites posted:

something that has come up over and over again in these discussions is conflating "voting for republicans" with "physically or emotionally abusive to me".

Voting for bad politics is being physically and emotionally abusive to the world in general, by proxy.

That someone may be nice to you, personally, or may lack the stomach to inflict cruelty directly, I do not think is really a good defence of their general moral character.

A person's politics is how they would treat you, if they didn't know you.

Lib and let die
Aug 26, 2004

There's a lot of products that you can buy with money but my posts are the only limited product, that only you can have.



OwlFancier posted:

Voting for bad politics is being physically and emotionally abusive to the world in general, by proxy.

That someone may be nice to you, personally, or may lack the stomach to inflict cruelty directly, I do not think is really a good defence of their general moral character.

So, do we hold Democrats that voted in support of the various empire-building wars to the same standard?

My mom voted for Obama, and continues to express positive sentiment about him. Obama, objectively, inflicted physical and emotional abuse on the world (remember that time he bombed a children's hospital, and a doctors without borders clinic?). Should we cut Obama-loving liberals out too by the same standard?

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Lib and let die posted:

So, do we hold Democrats that voted in support of the various empire-building wars to the same standard?

My mom voted for Obama, and continues to express positive sentiment about him. Obama, objectively, inflicted physical and emotional abuse on the world (remember that time he bombed a children's hospital, and a doctors without borders clinic?). Should we cut Obama-loving liberals out too by the same standard?

Certainly I hold a pretty dim view of them, I can be sympathetic and understand that they may simply be stupid rather than malevolent but it is quite easy to reach the same place by either path.

Pentecoastal Elites
Feb 27, 2007



OwlFancier posted:

Voting for bad politics is being physically and emotionally abusive to the world in general, by proxy.

That someone may be nice to you, personally, or may lack the stomach to inflict cruelty directly, I do not think is really a good defence of their general moral character.

A person's politics is how they would treat you, if they didn't know you.

L&LD beat me to the punch, but:

quote:

A person's politics is how they would treat you, if they didn't know you.
Is complete and utter bullshit, sorry. This is just something you tell yourself to make you feel like a good person for stepping in to a voting booth or arguing online or whatever. People's -- especially Americans' -- "politics" are seldom more than ad-hoc opinions generated by (first and foremost) the people around them and alarming or sensational things they receive from media sources.

Elephant Ambush
Nov 13, 2012

...We sholde spendedn more time together. What sayest thou?


Nap Ghost

Certainly interesting that the leftists here are the ones falling over themselves to deliver stinging gotchas.

The OP made it pretty clear that severing like this requires some privilege. Nobody is arguing otherwise. And much like Gumball Gumption I've seen severing work too. It's probably like a 1% success rate or something and much like him I'd like to see some actual data on this because I'm curious. I personally haven't had to cut anyone out of my life yet but I'm not afraid to do it if necessary.

If people are being abusive to you (whether it's related to politics or not) and you have the privilege to sever, you should sever. If you're in a position where cutting every reactionary (conservative or liberal) out of your life would ruin you emotionally then don't do it. That's it.

Really looking forward to all the contrived hair-splitting over a relatively simple issue.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


To elaborate and touch on the OP, I would suggest that whether or not I were to excise people from my life, political divides certainly dictate whether or not a relationship with someone is even possible.

I have family I still see who I do not agree with politically, and that absolutely means I can't actually have a relationship with them. Of course I am still related to them and I can still perform the social niceities with them as I can with anybody I don't really know, but as we have fundamentally different pictures of the world, we can never actually connect. They cannot understand me and I cannot understand them, because the political differences we have are extensions of fundamentally different outlooks, different concepts of how the world is. How can we possibly meet as equals with that between us? What can we talk about that is meaningful, how could they possibly understand me, or I them, when we cannot even agree on the nature of the world we live in?

Across that gap there cannot be a real relationship, because they live in a world that appears to me to be a complete fantasy. I can't connect with someone who lives in a dream, we have no relationship, we just occupy the same space sometimes, and I am able to make the motions to get useful things out of them occasionally, but there is no love, no kinship. There cannot be. With that in mind, whether or not I sever contact or not seems quite secondary.

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

Is complete and utter bullshit, sorry. This is just something you tell yourself to make you feel like a good person for stepping in to a voting booth or arguing online or whatever. People's -- especially Americans' -- "politics" are seldom more than ad-hoc opinions generated by (first and foremost) the people around them and alarming or sensational things they receive from media sources.

This in no way contradicts my assertion, however. I would entirely agree that they are often constructed out of those things, and are still how they treat people who aren't you. All that suggests is that people are often extremely flippant and unthinking in how they treat others, that their disposition towards others does not stem from deep consideration, but is as instincitve and thoughtless as their poltiics, for either good or ill.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Dec 3, 2021

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005

BAD FAITH TROLL: "Anytime I get bored at work I just argue with the first person I see in whatever the first thread I click on is."

Buglord

OwlFancier posted:


I have family I still see who I do not agree with politically, and that absolutely means I can't actually have a relationship with them. Of course I am still related to them and I can still perform the social niceities with them as I can with anybody I don't really know, but as we have fundamentally different pictures of the world, we can never actually connect. They cannot understand me and I cannot understand them, because the political differences we have are extensions of fundamentally different outlooks, different concepts of how the world is. How can we possibly meet as equals with that between us? What can we talk about that is meaningful, how could they possibly understand me, or I them, when we cannot even agree on the nature of the world we live in?


This feels like a supremely lovely way to live.

Like if that is all the distance it takes for you to view someone as so inhuman and alien you can not imagine communication what the heck happens to you if you have to talk to someone from another culture or country or religion? Like if your own family can be so different you can't even see them as the same species, what the heck do you do if you meet someone who has actual different outlooks and values and habits at a more fundamental level?

Pentecoastal Elites
Feb 27, 2007



OwlFancier posted:

This in no way contradicts my assertion, however. I would entirely agree that they are often constructed out of those things, and are still how they treat people who aren't you. All that suggests is that people are often extremely flippant and unthinking in how they treat others, that their disposition towards others does not stem from deep consideration, but is as instincitve and thoughtless as their poltiics, for either good or ill.

People hold politics as external to their lives because it is, because for decades and decades your average person has had near zero political power nor any sort of popular movement to participate in. Politics is the guy on the TV and the gas prices going up or down. No one except academics and, now, online guys obsesses over politics (undoubtedly correctly). I don't have a coherent analysis of marvel movies because I don't care that much, not because I'm incapable of organized thought.

Anyway I already regret posting in this thread and D&D in general so I'll leave with the only point that I'm really trying to make, which is that you're all so wrapped up in your own mystified view that paints you as the good guy and everyone else as the bad guy that you're mutilating your relationships to the benefit of no one but the imaginary cheering crowd of oppressed peoples in your head (or other similarly broken posters). I feel bad for your families, but a little heartened to know that someone who destroys a relationship for no reason other than a vote for the wrong team is probably completely loving insufferable anyway.

good luck on your posting journey & I wish you well in the coming year

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Owlofcreamcheese posted:

This feels like a supremely lovely way to live.

Like if that is all the distance it takes for you to view someone as so inhuman and alien you can not imagine communication what the heck happens to you if you have to talk to someone from another culture or country or religion? Like if your own family can be so different you can't even see them as the same species, what the heck do you do if you meet someone who has actual different outlooks and values and habits at a more fundamental level?

I mean I talk to people on here from other countries where we can still agree on the fundamental nature of reality which already makes the conversation far more worthwhile than one I could possibly have with someone who can't manage that, even if I'm related to them.

Like, being related to people by birth doesn't make them automatically a good pick for actual adult relationships with them? They're just a random bunch of people you got thrown in with. I do have people I would count as kin but none of them are in my birth family because why would they necessarily be?

My family can't even comprehend that I'm bi much less why any of the other things that matter to me, actually matter to me. They can't see why I care about the things I care about or why I act the way I act, because fundamentally they do not see the world the same way I do, and that manifests as/is caused by political divides.

They are as human as anybody else, but I can't form a real friendship with every human out there, and that doesn't really improve based on the circumstances of my birth.

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

People hold politics as external to their lives because it is, because for decades and decades your average person has had near zero political power nor any sort of popular movement to participate in. Politics is the guy on the TV and the gas prices going up or down. No one except academics and, now, online guys obsesses over politics (undoubtedly correctly). I don't have a coherent analysis of marvel movies because I don't care that much, not because I'm incapable of organized thought.

Anyway I already regret posting in this thread and D&D in general so I'll leave with the only point that I'm really trying to make, which is that you're all so wrapped up in your own mystified view that paints you as the good guy and everyone else as the bad guy that you're mutilating your relationships to the benefit of no one but the imaginary cheering crowd of oppressed peoples in your head (or other similarly broken posters). I feel bad for your families, but a little heartened to know that someone who destroys a relationship for no reason other than a vote for the wrong team is probably completely loving insufferable anyway.

good luck on your posting journey & I wish you well in the coming year

It's quite silly I think to imagine it as "destroying a relationship" when a more accurate descriptor would be that I changed as I stopped being a child, and they did not, or they changed in a different direction, and now we are different and there is no common ground.

Unless I were to stop being myself, or they themselves, there isn't a way to reconcile that. It really has very little to do with pleasing anybody else, I think I have been quite clear that this is a very personal thing, as I think it probably is for most people.

Politics is not external to our lives, politics is why we have to go to work, politics is why we struggle with secure housing, some of our very existences are political because the supposedly apolitical masses cannot stop making them political. To suggest that we should just stop caring about our own lives so that we can be friends with our blood relatives is very weird. Not even that it's morally wrong, but even down to how could that be possible for us?

If I can't get good work, or a house, and this defines a lot of my life because work and shelter are a massive part of our lives, and my family think that's because I'm not working hard enough or I just need to go and hand out resumes on the street or some boomer nonsense, regardless of whether they or you imagine that is a "political" position, it is going to be quite difficult for me to want to spend any more time around them than necessary, don't you think?

Whether or not you or anybody else identifies things as "political" does not change the fact that there are groups of people in this world with extremely different outlooks on things that are integral to our lives, and those differences cannot be wished away or trivially papered over. And they will affect the nature of the relationships we have with one another, if any are even possible.

So again, I can spend time around people or not, but whether or not there is, or can be, an emotional connection there is very much dependent on what I would call "politics"

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Dec 3, 2021

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP




Elephant Ambush posted:

Certainly interesting that the leftists here are the ones falling over themselves to deliver stinging gotchas.

The OP made it pretty clear that severing like this requires some privilege. Nobody is arguing otherwise. And much like Gumball Gumption I've seen severing work too. It's probably like a 1% success rate or something and much like him I'd like to see some actual data on this because I'm curious. I personally haven't had to cut anyone out of my life yet but I'm not afraid to do it if necessary.

If people are being abusive to you (whether it's related to politics or not) and you have the privilege to sever, you should sever. If you're in a position where cutting every reactionary (conservative or liberal) out of your life would ruin you emotionally then don't do it. That's it.

Really looking forward to all the contrived hair-splitting over a relatively simple issue.

Yeah, the E/N question of "should you remove abusive people from your life?" is easy, yes. The bigger question of what it means politically, does this help or hurt a growing fascist movement, and what is actually effective for influencing people politically is a lot more interesting to me in D&D. My gut is that a general "voting Republican" isn't enough at all and those people can absolutely be swayed and influenced and the danger here is that people who are on the edge will end up in a situation where the only folks they have to turn to is more radicalized fascist who will bring them down that path. But that's also all my gut and I'm curious what if any data there is to actually point to when it comes to any of this.

Doctor Butts
May 21, 2002



There's just no way to get through to my relative because they've taken steps to be in their own bubble.

This person has been good, but they also post a lot about 'liberalism is a mental disorder' based off of the right wing bullshit machine. There's just, no way to get through that constant misinformation.

Plus even knowing that you think they are good deep down, the flip side is that if I wasn't related- how badly would they think of me? Is there a weird block in their mind where I'm one of the good ones?

Well, I just don't feel comfortable knowing what they really think about people who have the opinions I do. So I choose to avoid them and try to cut them out.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009
GRANNY RUINING YOUR VIBES? CUT HER ASS OUT OF YOUR LIFE!


selec posted:

Just seems like a recipe for advancing the cause of capitalist alienation and subordination to ideologues that do nothing to help you.

If they cause you emotional distress, you should limit or place boundaries on anyone regardless of their political beliefs.

But if I love grandma and she loves me and we donít discuss politics, what is gained? Itís extremely difficult to change peoples minds, and if in doing so I weaken or destroy previously healthy relationships, well, what are the democrats going to do for me?

Iím sitting here completely isolated in a red state? No more family I can talk to. No more support systems. For a guy who said nothing will fundamentally change. Well some things changed; I managed to completely isolate myself thanks to the advice of people on the internet.

Emotional support is as important as financial support, maybe even more so in some cases.

This is the conception of politics as a sphere separate from the other spheres of society. I don't ascribe to it. I believe condemning extremism at all spheres - political, social, personal - with no unclear terms is the only way that a society can ultimately function without violent upheaval.

Are you saying that if your grandma was a literal nazi, stalinist, islamist or whatever else you would still see them? No? Then our measures of combating extremism are not at odds here, you simply think American Republicans are not extremist enough for them to be subjected to this measure.

I disagree. I see the Republican Party as an extremist party with no comparable equivalents in either United States or the rest of the developed world, barring parties that have already crossed the threshold to one-party authoritarianism, such as Viktor Orban's Fidesz. The GOP is fundamentally and openly against:

Minority advancement
Minority rights
Immigration of any non-white peoples
Women's rights
Religious freedom and the separation of church and state
Climate change efforts
Criminal reform
Drug decriminalization and/or legalization
Educational reform
Cultural freedom
Environmental and medical regulation
Healthcare reform
Tax reform
Election results denial

and a lot of other things. The amount of GOP representatives who don't ascribe to and advance that platform at 90-100% rate is what, a dozen?

Tofind more parties with as horrible of a laundry list of aims we have to pretty much leave any pretense of democracy behind. The path for GOP to do the same seems clear as the open sky because hell, they have already pretty much done so. Electoral College? Senate? Supreme Court? The United States under GOP has always, barring maybe one Bush term, been a white minority rule country in all of my lifetime.

Like how far do they have to go? January 6 was a Beer Hall Putsch. Trump is their standard-bearer. Their n. 1 topic right now is loving trying to make talking about racism in schools illegal. Every single one of their loved cultural figures are like two degrees away from Goebbels.

With her every vote your grandma advances that.

I'd cut my grandma off if she voted for fascists. That makes her a fascist. I don't support emotional support for fascists.

If this makes me an extremist...well, I don't get pissed if someone else wants to cut me off, so :shrug:


Lib and let die posted:

So, do we hold Democrats that voted in support of the various empire-building wars to the same standard?

My mom voted for Obama, and continues to express positive sentiment about him. Obama, objectively, inflicted physical and emotional abuse on the world (remember that time he bombed a children's hospital, and a doctors without borders clinic?). Should we cut Obama-loving liberals out too by the same standard?



And yeah, Democrats bad. No poo poo not doing poo poo all about right-wing extremism while stomping out left-wing with more boot stomps then a Nuremberg rally tends to turn the whole society towards a more right-wing bent. But hey, that's the options you have in America. Literal fascists or right-wing liberals.


Pentecoastal Elites posted:

darkcrawler lives thousands of miles away from the nearest republican

anyway none of this will ever do anything except deprive you of a relationship with whomever you're cutting out and finally and completely abandoned your family member to a propaganda apparatus. If you're unable to compete with the multi-billion dollar mystification machine, kicking them out of your life is not going to "show them the light", nor the people around them, nor "society". This is all just more of the same old dogshit ~personal responsibility~ approach to politics that is the hallmark of conservatism that guys like the OP claim to hate so much: we could get rid of the republicans and everything would finally get better if you just donated more voted blue severed ties with grandma. Everyone will see that I participated in a peaceful march called my congressman cut my dad out of my life and it'll start a movement! Total and complete mystification.

For a forum so obsessed with hating the neighboring forum of ostensible doompilled nihilists, it's legitimately still pretty shocking to me that seemingly none of you can recognize this fully unhinged position of amputating your loved ones from your life in full recognition that it will not actually do anything. For the purposes of, what? Being Right About Politics? Yeah I haven't seen my mother's face in twenty years but guess what bucko, she was a friggin' putin loving trump voter, chief! I'm antifa! I'm saving our democracy! gently caress that old broad! She'll die alone but I'm right. My children will never meet their grandmother but I'm right. That's what really matters!

anyway I am genuinely sorry for those of you that are so fully mystified by the hideous farce of American electoral politics that you're engaging in what I think most normal people would consider significant self-harm. I'm more sorry for your families who have to deal with your profoundly hosed up rear end because they had the bad luck of growing up in a specific area or religious community and sent you to college or whatever.

There seems to be this bizarre strain of American exceptionalist present in this sort of defense, which I've always found weird coming from a leftist. Your shitheads are not some special lambs who stand apart from our shitheads. You simply have more of them because you tolerate them.

No, I'm not American. So what? That means I can't comment on American issues? I have experience with cutting out fascists, racists, sexists and other assholes out of my life. It did not matter that they were nice to me when they are terrible to other people.

In my society, for example, people who fight regular, reasonable measures to combating pandemics are insane scum. There was no mask debate and anyone who was against them or vaccines is routinely mocked and excluded, latter now by actual law.

It works. These people aren't coddled. I cut off the one person who was against vaccines out of my life, and me and society are better for it. That's like ten percent of the average insanity your average republican supports. I don't give a rat loving poo poo about how nice that sort of person would be to me.

You're completely okay with the same on other classes of people, just not Republicans because you personally know them and they somefuckinghow aren't extreme enough for you yet. Don't get mad at people who can cut out people they personally know. Sorry that you're that weak, I'm not.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Dec 3, 2021

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP




You didn't help society by cutting an anti-mask person out of your life, you helped yourself. Those laws helped society though. Banning fascist symbols, propaganda, and organizations is an effective way to remove fascists from society, yes.

Lib and let die
Aug 26, 2004

There's a lot of products that you can buy with money but my posts are the only limited product, that only you can have.



DarkCrawler posted:

And yeah, Democrats bad. No poo poo not doing poo poo all about right-wing extremism while stomping out left-wing with more boot stomps then a Nuremberg rally tends to turn the whole society towards a more right-wing bent. But hey, that's the options you have in America. Literal fascists or right-wing liberals.

Let's drop the labels for alignments and look at it objectively:

If memaw voted for a politician that not once, not twice, but multiple times, Did A War Crime, and has employed every rhetorical and legal trick available to his office to Not Face Consequences, should I cut her out of my life if I have the material privilege to do so?

World Famous W
May 25, 2007

BAAAAAAAAAAAA

DarkCrawler posted:

It works. These people aren't coddled. I cut off the one person who was against vaccines out of my life, and me and society are better for it. That's like ten percent of the average insanity your average republican supports. I don't give a rat loving poo poo about how nice that sort of person would be to me.
I would like a quick clarification. Have you only had to sever with one person total or only just one over that specific issue?

If you live in red states (or rural areas of most blue states) you can risk near social isolation if you sever on the level you call for

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug
-----------------------------------
SA is funded by your AV purchases, thank you!




Pillbug

We have severed more than a couple family members not just for Conservative affiliation, but their states views about Womens and LGBT rights.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 13 minutes!


Noncommital as it is, my take has always been "People have their own moral calculus for this."
There are too many individual factors to weigh on the matter and there is no One Size Fits All since everyone's got a different situation or comes from a different place.

selec
Sep 6, 2003

Better Politics Through Intimidation and Blackmail!TM

(Receipts!)

the_steve posted:

Noncommital as it is, my take has always been "People have their own moral calculus for this."
There are too many individual factors to weigh on the matter and there is no One Size Fits All since everyone's got a different situation or comes from a different place.

I see an enormous amount of it as liberals looking to make politics matter/have some kind of political agency as the official organs of that agency are decrepit oligarchs.

So if I canít get anything I want from the government, who can I punish?

Again, assuming you have a fairly normal relationship that isnít abusiveówhat political valence does this action carry? Iíd say close to none, but it at least feels like something. Itís the liberal inability to see past individuals, and literally picking the easiest targets, who are probably in their class cohort. Itís an acting out of such impotence.

To DCís point about politics being a separate sphere; itís not, itís just that for most Americans there is no means to actually act our politics out in any meaningful way. Our system is almost wholly unresponsive to us. The only meaningful political power left will be collective action, which will require a lot of bodies in the street.

All of this is to say I get the urge, in the same way I understand other malformed coping mechanisms.

selec fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 3, 2021

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester


It's okay to sever or distance from anyone but you should be prepared for and ready to accept any potential fallout first.

DeepBlue
Jul 7, 2004

SHMEH!!!


I love how everyone in this thread that is advocating for the separation of ties due to people who don't really understand or really don't care about enough about national politics. There is a pretty strong line when it comes to straight up abuse, but unless they are responding to the 'demands of the party' like the 1/6 rioters were then there is no real reason to cut ties with someone you would call family.

I have personally had to deal with this issue, and discerning the issues from over 30 years of neglect and narcissism, juxtaposed with this person being a Republican, was enlightening as it showed where this individual's shortcomings are and where their beliefs led them. I could actually speak to their beliefs and point out where they are fallacious or just wrong. But I would never be able to actually convince them of the 'other side' if I just said gently caress you and severed. I still have boundaries around this person as they are still toxic and their ways have not really changed, but that is another issue as that has more to do with interpersonal relationships than anything else.

I mean you cant have politics without diplomacy. The OP seemed to be coming from a point of view where they are tired of seeing the recklessness of the Republican party (as am I). But it smacks of ignorance around how Politics actually works since the behavior of severing is just confirming adversarial bias and further entrenches into said bias. This is not really any different than how both Republicans and Democrats treat the homeless population, in the sense that you can just 'push away' all the bad poo poo you don't like under the rug.

If you want to get technical about this: If the Dems wanted to do something about this, they had control over enough houses of government to do so over the last 2 years and their dysfunction has nothing to do with an individual's political alignment. Nothing has fundamentally changed, so why should I take it out on my family?

The people yelling about this are probably the same people who would be surprised when Twitter censors their posts that goes against their 'terms and services'. Its baby brained at best and straight up malicious at worse when you consider the various nuances that other posters have made in this thread. If you are unwilling to come up with solid arguments about what you believe in your heart of hearts and stick to that conviction, you have no idea how Politics and Diplomacy works. Its a textbook definition of hubris to commit this type of culturicide.

DarkCrawler has merely capitulated to poor reflex control, and should be ashamed of themselves. This is people's families we are talking about here, and you really have no loving idea who people are until you are able to have a conversation with them without you foaming at the mouth or poo poo stirring to confirm your preexisting biases.

DeepBlue fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Dec 3, 2021

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Per my own moral calculus, since I view rape as an abhorrent crime, I just cut off everyone in my life who's ever voted for a rapist and it works great. I don't have to talk to anybody anymore.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009
GRANNY RUINING YOUR VIBES? CUT HER ASS OUT OF YOUR LIFE!


Lib and let die posted:

Let's drop the labels for alignments and look at it objectively:

If memaw voted for a politician that not once, not twice, but multiple times, Did A War Crime, and has employed every rhetorical and legal trick available to his office to Not Face Consequences, should I cut her out of my life if I have the material privilege to do so?

Did they run on doing war crimes? Because Republicans implicitly run on the things I listed. Their supporters may not agree with each of them but all of them agree with the vast majority. Including war crimes, which I did not list but which the rhetoric of the GOP and their supporters make pretty clear the party is all for.

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

Per my own moral calculus, since I view rape as an abhorrent crime, I just cut off everyone in my life who's ever voted for a rapist and it works great. I don't have to talk to anybody anymore.

Again, is "rape" a party platform of the party this rapist ran in and is it supported by the vast majority of both the representatives and the voters?

World Famous W posted:

I would like a quick clarification. Have you only had to sever with one person total or only just one over that specific issue?

If you live in red states (or rural areas of most blue states) you can risk near social isolation if you sever on the level you call for

Only one over this specific issue, a lot more over other issues.

I suppose if you are stuck in whatever crappy rural hellhole you grew up in and have no means of escape you're in one way or other financially dependent on the people or the community there (because literally everyone with any other option seems to move away as fast as possible) So I would not fault people stuck in that position either.

Me, personally, I don't know anyone I grew up with and in lot of cases that is because of severance. The 2015 refugee "crisis" in Europe took a lot of masks off.

DeepBlue posted:

I love how everyone in this thread that is advocating for the separation of ties due to people who don't really understand or really don't care about enough about national politics. There is a pretty strong line when it comes to straight up abuse, but unless they are responding to the 'demands of the party' like the 1/6 rioters were then there is no real reason to cut ties with someone you would call family.

I have personally had to deal with this issue, and discerning the issues from over 30 years of neglect and narcissism, juxtaposed with this person being a Republican, was enlightening as it showed where this individual's shortcomings are and where their beliefs led them. I could actually speak to their beliefs and point out where they are fallacious or just wrong. But I would never be able to actually convince them of the 'other side' if I just said gently caress you and severed. I still have boundaries around this person as they are still toxic and their ways have not really changed, but that is another issue as that has more to do with interpersonal relationships than anything else.

I mean you cant have politics without diplomacy. The OP seemed to be coming from a point of view where they are tired of seeing the recklessness of the Republican party (as am I). But it smacks of ignorance around how Politics actually works since the behavior of severing is just confirming adversarial bias and further entrenches into said bias. This is not really any different than how both Republicans and Democrats both treat the homeless population, in the sense that you can just 'push away' all the bad poo poo you don't like under the rug.

If you want to get technical about this: If the Dems wanted to do something about this, they had control over enough houses of government to do so over the last 2 years and their dysfunction has nothing to do with an individual's political alignment. Nothing has fundamentally changed, so why should I take it out on my family?

The people yelling about this are probably the same people who would be surprised when Twitter censors their posts that goes against their 'terms and services'. Its baby brained at best and straight up malicious at worse when you consider the various nuances that other posters have made in this thread. If you are unwilling to come up with solid arguments about what you believe in your heart of hearts and stick to that conviction, you have no idea how Politics and Diplomacy works. Its a textbook definition of hubris to commit this type of culturicide.

DarkCrawler has merely capitulated to poor reflex control, and should be ashamed of themselves. This is people's families we are talking about here, and you really have no loving idea who people are until you are able to have a conversation with them without you foaming at the mouth or poo poo stirring to confirm your preexisting biases.

This is another iteration of "people are nice to me so they have to be good people", and is so implicitly childish that I don't understand how anyone can say it with a straight face anymore. We don't determine people's morality by how lovely they are to whatever in-group they belong to. These people are exponentially worse to exponentially more people by the virtue of their actions. Nothing nice they do to a handful of people make up for that level or moral oblivion.

Don't try to pretend I haven't justified any of my arguments. You didn't reply to any of them, you constructed a sad strawman to take down.

Everyone always claims people don't know or care enough about national politics to not see how evil the GOP is but when the party is headed by Donald Trump that is loving bullshit, sorry. That seems to be entirely a myth that allows people to absolve their close ones of any agency or fault on their own.

If the American society is truly this unique of a brainwashing system, why are all of you so mad at your rich people and elected representatives? What, they're immune to the worship of capital and free markets that your society, especially rich society, parrots at every moment? What if they grew up in a rich family of shitheads instead of a poor family of shitheads, how does one make you have full agency and one zero? I would say that a wealthy person is arguably even more removed from the realities of life and the wider society, from cradle to grave.

It doesn't matter to me because I don't ascribe agency by net worth and I think an rear end in a top hat is an rear end in a top hat no matter how they got there, but I would be inter sted in where the functional difference eis that allows one to call every shitlib all the names in the book but clutch pearls when it is about someone they are related to or love otherwise.

Or is brainwashing only applicable if it results into a shithead racist who is poor and not a shithead racist who is rich? Why isn't Joe Biden the product of multiple systems that encourage him to become worse by every step (the Congress as a top of it).

Do you only start having moral agency from the moment you are elected or become wealthy? Because I think that is a terrible loving way to ensure that our elected officials or our wealthy people exhibit any morality whatsoever. if all they know is being able to do horrible poo poo like say, supporting fascism, with no social consequences, I don't think they're receptive to learning it when they have more power over others.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Terminal autist
May 17, 2018

Endorsed by:
Pentecoastal Elites!
fart_man_69!
Terminal autist!
Ruzihm!
Judakel!
Dixon Chisholm!
Nix Panicus!
Neurolimal!


Its ok to cut lovely and toxic put of your life but to be clear this isnt politics or activism. The cool zone in cspam(which is just posting) has produced more direct anti fascist action than any of the potential millions of people severing contact with lovely family members.

Btw OP has your view on how only american cops are bastards changed? Seems like it would be relevant to this conversation

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply