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BlankSystemDaemon posted:how you can have preemptive multitasking without privilege separation is a mystery to me i am sure the bsd thread will get right to the bottom of this mystery of why someone was running a weird old operating system with obvious technical deficiencies
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Dec 7, 2021 11:30
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if you stare too long at the abyss known as kernel filesystem code, the abyss looks back into you good thing you got out when you did
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Dec 7, 2021 11:32
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:i am sure the bsd thread will get right to the bottom of this mystery of why someone was running a weird old operating system with obvious technical deficiencies *taps forum name*
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Dec 7, 2021 11:53
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Zlodo posted:*taps forum name* the intended joke was that the bsds are themselves weird old operating systems with obvious technical deficiencies
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Dec 7, 2021 14:02
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:i'm so sad that i passed on a sparcstation that'd been retrofitted with four hypersparc cpus at 200MHz from ross hell, i'm sad you passed on that. sb hermit posted:netbsd on arm is nice, and it's not like you can run much anything else except raspbian or pidora still, what arm box are you going to have a reasonable NetBSD experience on where you couldn't just have gotten something x86 that was less expensive, lower powered, and faster?
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Dec 7, 2021 14:41
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strtj posted:
If you can seriously find something x86 that operates in the 5 watt range then I'd be seriously impressed.
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Dec 7, 2021 18:12
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sb hermit posted:If you can seriously find something x86 that operates in the 5 watt range then I'd be seriously impressed. There were a number of Atom processors that had TDPs well under 3W. I think there were even one or two under 1W.
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Dec 7, 2021 19:09
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sb hermit posted:If you can seriously find something x86 that operates in the 5 watt range then I'd be seriously impressed. it's not quite that low wattage but i have an embedded jetway that has an x86 celeron, w/ four threads and keeps under 20 watts fully loaded. most of the time it's <10 watts under normal use. i installed openbsd (and arch on another drive), and most of the time it runs my text terminal. also has the ability to install a cellular modem + sim card for computing from anywhere Broken Machine fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 19:19
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strtj posted:There were a number of Atom processors that had TDPs well under 3W. I think there were even one or two under 1W. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 19:21
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strtj posted:There were a number of Atom processors that had TDPs well under 3W. I think there were even one or two under 1W. good point But they are just the processors. What about an actual system that, in its totality, still fits within that envelope?
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Dec 7, 2021 19:24
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At any rate, at the embedded and low power computing range, ARM has x86 beat. Especially when you also include availability. Would I want to use these low power systems to compile software? Hell no. But for network appliances, sensors, displays, and related tasks, they work great. It's just too bad that embedded Linux has such a stranglehold on the mindshare of people that want to develop on these platforms (unless you want to go microcontrollers like the pi pico or arduino) because I think netbsd can probably hold its own.
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Dec 7, 2021 19:33
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There's no situation in which you should have to consider compiling software on low-watt CPUs, with the TARGET and TARGET_ARCH environment variables of BSD make.
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Dec 7, 2021 19:39
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no one's mentioned this hot garbage yet. can't imagine why... I had a coworker a long time ago who, at a previous job, actually used this in a production environment. he was... shall we say not eager to use it again.
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Dec 7, 2021 21:54
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Feels like Haiku is the most user-friendly of the alternative OS's, pity it works with even fewer hardware.
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Dec 7, 2021 22:23
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Maximo Roboto posted:Feels like Haiku is the most user-friendly of the alternative OS's, pity it works with even fewer hardware. ah yes, for the five people in the world who absolutely can't live without BeOS as their daily driver honestly, I run a good dozen or more operating systems on various machines, and I've never given a poo poo enough about BeOS to install it on real hardware (of any sort)
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Dec 7, 2021 23:03
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and I should mention that my grandfather owned and ran a real BeBox as his primary machine for many years. "it was cute" is about the nicest thing I can say about it
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Dec 7, 2021 23:06
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strtj posted:no one's mentioned this hot garbage yet. can't imagine why... - the ipfw firewall and its use of a jit compiler to generate bpf code at runtime - mutex(9), ie. mutual exclusive locking
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Dec 7, 2021 23:44
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I used BeOS 5 for a bit back in the day. They were honest about it being just a single user desktop OS, and it did a decent job of that. Being all written from scratch, it was really fast and responsive. The database feature of the file system ran really fast given the hardware of the time. You could save a query as a folder, and it would just update the contents in the background. It also had a neat feature where if you put an audio CD in, it would mount an extra "mp3" folder, and you could drag the audio tracks out of that to your hard drive and it would automatically encode them. Every so often I grab a USB image of Haiku to see how they are coming along. I'm never impressed enough to really use it though. But at this rate, Haiku will probably make a version 1 release before Hurd does.
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Dec 8, 2021 05:28
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Beowulfs_Ghost posted:I used BeOS 5 for a bit back in the day. don’t jinx them, op. they’re trying
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Dec 8, 2021 05:44
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Broken Machine posted:it's not quite that low wattage but i have an embedded jetway that has an x86 celeron, w/ four threads and keeps under 20 watts fully loaded. most of the time it's <10 watts under normal use. i installed openbsd (and arch on another drive), and most of the time it runs my text terminal. also has the ability to install a cellular modem + sim card for computing from anywhere a celeron j1900 is quad core and 10w tdp, both of my home servers use them and they are deeply ok
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Dec 8, 2021 06:03
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strtj posted:ah yes, for the five people in the world who absolutely can't live without BeOS as their daily driver The icons own bones, sorry you weren't born until Metro came out https://twitter.com/ragzouken/status/1327009760529555463 https://twitter.com/waddlesplash/status/1327252643991969792
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Dec 8, 2021 06:49
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:if you're using irssi, it supports capsicum as of quite a while ago this would be of interest if there were any reason for me to learn capsicum this tangentially reminds me that i have a copy of https://www.amazon.com/Design-Implementation-FreeBSD-Operating-System/dp/0321968972 it is an excellent reference as to _what_ is in freebsd, and to a lesser degree a good overview of how to design OS components a partial read brought me to the conclusion that i had almost no chance of encountering an employer who cared about understanding low-level OS poo poo. interesting, but rather useless unless your job was already writing kernel code
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Dec 8, 2021 08:05
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Maximo Roboto posted:The icons own bones, sorry you weren't born until Metro came out your argument for why people should run BeOS and/or derivatives is that they have cool icons?!?
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Dec 8, 2021 14:36
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strtj posted:your argument for why people should run BeOS and/or derivatives is that they have cool icons?!? i mean, this threads argument for why people should run bsd is (??!?) i'll certainly take the haiku icons, and the lovely dotted text underlines, over having all the tools to crosscompile some garbage for my garbage computer because it is too slow to do anything useful itself
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Dec 8, 2021 14:36
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CMYK BLYAT! posted:this would be of interest if there were any reason for me to learn capsicum it is a beautiful book that I carried in my backpack in my teen years. they don’t write em like they used to; it’s all beta content on the publisher website
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Dec 8, 2021 16:48
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CMYK BLYAT! posted:this would be of interest if there were any reason for me to learn capsicum Cybernetic Vermin posted:i mean, this threads argument for why people should run bsd is (??!?) in close to a quarter century that i've used freebsd and netbsd, i've seen people give tons of reasons why they tried it, and there's no rhyme or reason to whether the stated reason was why they stuck around, or whether it was something else - but the fact remains that people do find something that appeals to them if you're happy with what you're using, that's great - i'd think you'd want people to be happy with what they're using too, even if they find that from something you don't appear to like mawarannahr posted:it is a beautiful book that I carried in my backpack in my teen years. they don’t write em like they used to; it’s all beta content on the publisher website
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Dec 8, 2021 16:51
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Maximo Roboto posted:The icons own bones, sorry you weren't born until Metro came out beos has always had a nice aesthetic
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Dec 8, 2021 16:51
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:i mean, this threads argument for why people should run bsd is (??!?) All operating systems are pieces of poo poo OP.
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Dec 8, 2021 16:57
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:why is there always someone who's making this argument as if there's something wrong with trying out different things and maybe finding an appeal to it that's new? thanks for agreeing with me in my defense of haiku op
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Dec 8, 2021 17:06
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i once tried netbsd on an amiga 1200 and it was slow as gently caress. garbage os, case closed
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Dec 8, 2021 17:15
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AnimeIsTrash posted:All operating systems are pieces of poo poo OP.
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Dec 8, 2021 17:33
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strtj posted:your argument for why people should run BeOS and/or derivatives is that they have cool icons?!? i mean... the icons are pretty cool. pretty sure there's an icewm theme with them though
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Dec 8, 2021 21:55
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Zlodo posted:there was no MMU on the first few amiga models and even though they could probably have done something in hardware to isolate some memory for exclusive usage of the kernel in supervisor mode it probably would have been too expensive both amigaos and macos (not the current macos which is really nextstep 20 or whatever, i'm talking about the original 1980s macos) fell into the same trap: 1. use motorola 68000, it has no mmu so process isolation is not possible 2. trying to bring computers to the mass market, so not much RAM or disk, primary focus is on just making it work 3. gotta rush to market, can't have rumored other systems beating you out the door these factors resulted in not giving enough thought to possible future problems, such as what happens once you've got ten applications running at once amigaos did give more consideration to that than original macos by a long shot, but still didn't design for MMUs. that was expensive big-boy hardware and amiga was originally going to be a game console before commodore bought it and made it a computer. iirc that history meant they had to really rush the software side since the change in market was late in the development cycle so both ended up doing poo poo which made retrofitting isolation extremely hard. amigaos had a bunch of stuff which i can't remember the details of or rationale for, but iirc by design processes routinely pointer-chased through each other's memory and did a bit of writing on their way, not just reading
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Dec 8, 2021 22:51
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just use multi-finder, op anything more is bourgeois decadence
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Dec 8, 2021 23:40
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No honest person needs more than a single maximized application at any time.
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Dec 8, 2021 23:51
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KozmoNaut posted:No honest person needs more than a single maximized application at any time. your multitasking is a piece of poo poo
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Dec 9, 2021 02:26
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When both your RAM and disk space are less than 1 MB, you don't really architect the system to run more than one application.
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Dec 9, 2021 07:29
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Something something 640kB.
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Dec 9, 2021 07:39
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sb hermit posted:When both your RAM and disk space are less than 1 MB, you don't really architect the system to run more than one application. Macintosh was originally planned to have some degree of multitasking, with Finder running alongside the current application just like the Desktop did on Lisa, but that was found to be infeasible with 64KB of ROM and 128KB of RAM they came up with the Open and Save dialogs as a replacement they tried for a bit though they never could’ve supported an MMU though, the board space just wasn’t available that said, the 68K doesn’t need a full MMU for the most basic privilege separation, just a couple of addressable range comparators (e.g. ganged addressable latches and comparators) to generate an interrupt—still not something that would’ve fit on the Macintosh board, but probably would’ve on the Amiga or Atari ST hell even without the MMU the OSes could’ve just run OS code in supervisor mode and user code in user mode, even if it didn’t make a difference until the next generation of hardware or two, since it was available…
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Dec 9, 2021 10:10
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eschaton posted:hell even without the MMU the OSes could’ve just run OS code in supervisor mode and user code in user mode, even if it didn’t make a difference until the next generation of hardware or two, since i. Not t was available… In the case of the Amiga not using supervisor mode for the os wasn't the main issue with retrofitting memory protection, it was that data structures and pointers to them were passed back an forth between applications and the os. Also a lot of applications just poked around inside internal os data structures. If they wanted to do it they'd have had to create a sandbox for legacy application with a shared address space to collectively poo poo up and to force newer applications to use a completely redesigned abi It would have been possible if commodore lived long enough to see it through, which was never going to happen anyway The succession of clowns that tried to take over and update/reboot/re-implement Amiga os went with the classic method of deluding themselves into believing that not having difficult-to-implement memory protection was A Good Thing, Actually
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Dec 9, 2021 11:10
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