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Rooney McNibnug
Sep 2, 2008

"Life always hopes. When a definite object cannot be outlined, the indomitable spirit of hope still impels the living mass to move toward something--something that shall somehow be better."


https://twitter.com/mcguinnessjohn/status/1492277653998505985

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tote up a bags
Jun 8, 2006

die stoats die



hosed up to think Ultemecia's greatest crime was being unwilling to play Triple Triad

jiggerypokery
Feb 1, 2012

...But I could hardly wait six months with a red hot jape like that under me belt.



She did nothing wrong!

itry
Aug 23, 2019






Ultimecia just wanted to create the best TT tournament ever, with players from all over time.


Edit: But no one arrived, which is why she was in a fighting mood when SeeD came knocking :(

X-Ray Pecs
May 11, 2008

New York
Ice Cream
TV
Travel
~Good Times~


Ultimecia forcing all challengers to go through the gauntlet of beasts to cover for the fact that she only has like Creeps and Geezard cards.

itry
Aug 23, 2019






The requirement of leaving any personal equipment at the door to discourage cheating came to bite her in the rear end and everybody died.

man nurse
Feb 17, 2014




Kurse all Kards

Randallteal
May 7, 2006

The tears of time


SeeD is also basically an elite organization to dominate Triple Triad since like half of the best unique cards in the game are Balamb students. It would be funny if you ran into some nobody in Galbadia Garden holding an OC card of themselves with 9/9/A/A or something ridiculous.

zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

yospos


If you're not a big cards player it feels like the Queen of Cards is stalking you since the card maker makes cards based on the Queen's travels and all the good cards are you and things you fought.

I think the more charitable interpretation is when you play the game correctly and the party plays so much cards with, around, and with people who know the queen so your party and your stories are the most interesting thing the card maker has heard in a while.

Dark_Swordmaster
Oct 31, 2011


I did not even play the tutorial for TT in my playthrough. To this day I don't know anything about it or how it works. I loving hate tacked on RPG minigames so I'm glad it was 100% optional and you didn't even need the tutorial match.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

I was terrified at first, but I think I'm okay with it.



ďtacked onĒ

loving yikes, dude.

Dark_Swordmaster
Oct 31, 2011


Not literally obviously. But pazaak, caravan, even loving gwent, no thanks. I'm here for the main RPG, not a side card game diversion.

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless


Triple Triad is very easy to play. You put cards down in a way that you think will make you win, and then the game says "actually there's a new rule that says you lose everything" and the computer takes all your cards.

man nurse
Feb 17, 2014




Itís fun and you can directly transform cards into items and magic that are extremely powerful. I think itís an elegant way of incorporating a side game while also not making it mandatory.

Smh, imagine playing something like Witcher 3 and not touching Gwent.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Dark_Swordmaster posted:

Not literally obviously. But pazaak, caravan, even loving gwent, no thanks. I'm here for the main RPG, not a side card game diversion.

But Gwent is the main RPG? It just has that lovely ARPG combat system bolted on.

Dark_Swordmaster
Oct 31, 2011


If gwent is so good maybe it should get its ow.... Oh huh. Well now if I ever want to play gwent I can intentionally do that instead of install a 90 gb game.

zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

yospos


I hate Gwent and most mini games. Triple Triad isn't a mini game, it's an alternate progression mechanic.

X-Ray Pecs
May 11, 2008

New York
Ice Cream
TV
Travel
~Good Times~


Dark_Swordmaster posted:

I did not even play the tutorial for TT in my playthrough. To this day I don't know anything about it or how it works. I loving hate tacked on RPG minigames so I'm glad it was 100% optional and you didn't even need the tutorial match.

Is there even a Triple Triad tutorial? It starts really simple and gets more confusing as the game goes, but if you just play with Balamb rules, itís very simple to grasp.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk


College Slice

someone make a hack where all battles are resolved via triple triad instead of the normal RPG combat

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

I was terrified at first, but I think I'm okay with it.



ngl a Triple Triad game like Thronebreaker would immediately wreck me.

Itís me. Iím the person that collected every one of the 350+ triple triad cards in FFXIV.

man nurse
Feb 17, 2014




Mordiceius posted:

ngl a Triple Triad game like Thronebreaker would immediately wreck me.

Itís me. Iím the person that collected every one of the 350+ triple triad cards in FFXIV.

im the thread icon whenever clearing a quest reveals an NPC to be a new triple triad opponent

VideoGames
Aug 18, 2003



ďWanna play some triple triad?Ē - Videogames, 2022 to every character in FFVIII remastered.

My first time through the game this year and it was magical and wonderful and fantastic and everything I was hoping for. It was an amazing time and even though it took me 57 hours I could have spent another fifty hundred just playing triple triad. I also bought it for my switch just so I could play triple triad on the move. :)

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011



I probably played more Triple Triad than I did the entire rest of the game proper. Friend of mine convinced me to play XIV with him almost solely by going "It's got Triple Triad in it".

itry
Aug 23, 2019






I recalled that there used to be a web pvp TT somewhere (years ago), so I went searching...

Is this it? I don't remember :shobon:


Edit: Also there's this thing http://itdelatrisu.github.io/triple-triad-html5/ :haw:

Dark_Swordmaster
Oct 31, 2011


Started FFIX last night and it's a perfect loving example. The rules to its card game are minimally explained at the start of it and I promptly lost every beginner match to where the game told me I couldn't play anymore. Cool, I likely never will again.

OhFunny
Jun 26, 2013

EXTREMELY PISSED AT THE DNC


I finished FFVIII.

Someone on the design team must have loved Resident Evil. The whole final zone was reminiscent of a RE game. A mansion with a main hall that has a huge staircase, a falling chandelier, sewers, clock tower. You have to explore to find keys and do puuzles to unlock the different zones.

Story really went off the rails in the last third, but I'm a sucker for a happy ending so the final camcorder cutscene mad me :kimchi:

Music was banging.

Truspeaker
Jan 28, 2009



Dark_Swordmaster posted:

Started FFIX last night and it's a perfect loving example. The rules to its card game are minimally explained at the start of it and I promptly lost every beginner match to where the game told me I couldn't play anymore. Cool, I likely never will again.

FFIXs card game is near universally reviled, while FFVIIIs is near universally beloved. The only thing tetra master is a perfect example of is a poo poo card game.

Sally Sprodgkin
May 23, 2007

get money


I've played an unhealthy amount of Tetra Master because winning 2x games is a required part of the (otherwise pretty chill) FFIX speedrun. Rant about how bad Tetra Master is below.

The biggest issue with the game is the fact that attack/defence card battles work on a 0-X randomised roll and every card can roll a 0 on attack/defence. This adds a level of randomness that would make even the most hardened of Hearthstone implosion-abusing wild zoo lock mains cry.

eg. I play an 'A' attack minion into your 1 defence minion. My A attack minion has a roll of 0-255 and your 1 defence minion has a roll of 0-15. There is a very non-zero chance my A-tier minion is going to lose because I rolled 1/255 and you rolled 4/15. This poo poo becomes far more obvious when you're playing within 2-3 tiers of the enemy (ie most games) wherein the chance to lose an aggressive action can be quite high (20%+ kinda thing even in match-ups where the numbers say you should be a shoe-in). As far as I know, this mechanic is never properly explained in game or in any of the paraphernalia. This mechanic means that it's basically impossible to ensure 100% that you will win any particular game based on good play alone. Particularly if there isn't a huge gap in card quality between you and your opponent.

They also more or less included the 'combo' rule from Triple Triad which I'm pretty sure was universally disliked as a mechanic. Also, you can combo multiple of your own cards to your enemy based on a failed aggressive battle.

The winning strategy is more or less:

A) Don't expose too many arrows because you can get 3+ cards flipped and lose
B) Don't ever 'battle' cards unless you are behind and need to win the battle to win the game, always just take cards with vulnerable sides
C) Pray you don't go first because your likelihood to win instantly goes down by 15+%. Going first is just so bad - the enemy gets the first chance to flip a card (which, if it happens, means you're immediately playing defensively) and also the last chance to flip a card. This imbalance kind of exists in Triple Triad, but isn't as obvious because you can just shove an A/9 card in a corner and be relatively safe if you go first.

People use some other strategies (getting a goblin card with lots of arrows and just baiting a large combo with the last arrow is popular, but can be unpredictable) but the extent of the randomness means there is no 100% guaranteed way to win every time even vs relatively simple AI opponents with optimal play.

All of this put together makes for a horrible gameplay experience. I think the only thing they got right with Tetra Master over Triple Triad was no rule changes based on getting to the next zone or whatever. Triple Triad was so good because it made immediate sense when you picked it up, RNG was pretty tame and the powerful cards felt powerful and fun to play with and collect.

Sally Sprodgkin fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Feb 16, 2022

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔


I'm not the biggest fan of FF8, but it's a fascinating mess of a game to me. My first playthrough was back when me and a buddy were going through all the FFs, and he was both into breaking games and following optimal strategies, so he had a guide open and we just broke everything. It was hilarious, but it also showed how much story we thought was stupid there actually is, and how little game you have to play - Enc-None is optional, so we put that on immediately, and then it's just running from boss to boss and playing cards. And there's not even that many bosses!

I often wonder how the game was actually meant to be played. Full on 3k life from the start and limit spam with 100+ Str can't have been the intention, right? Some designer must have thought "okay, at this part of the game, the party will reach the threshold for the enemies getting better spells to draw, so we outfit these dudes with Firaga and those ones with Meteo..." etc

But I don't know what that "intended" way might be. How often would you play cards? Which abilities would you get, when would you start refining?

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011



Final Fantasy VIII is completely beatable without even really delving too deeply into the systems. Just fight or run as you feel necessary from fights as per JRPG standards, futz about with the draw, junction, and GF systems, and don't care about or even really notice the enemy scaling, and stumble on sidequests. It is a pretty bog standard level of difficulty for a JRPG at that level.

Just treating it as a standard JRPG with some bolted on mechanics strikes me as the 'intended' way to play. Those mechanics are hilariously busted, though, once you really look at them, and why the game because hella easy once you really use them.

The other intended way to play is to view the rest of the game as just a vehicle to more Triple Triad.

AngryRobotsInc fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Feb 16, 2022

Randallteal
May 7, 2006

The tears of time


The first time I played it I'm pretty sure I didn't know what level scaling was, got all of my magic from drawing and had a horrible rats nest of spells on every character, and basically just summoned GFs constantly in combat and it still basically worked out fine.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011



Randallteal posted:

The first time I played it I'm pretty sure I didn't know what level scaling was, got all of my magic from drawing and had a horrible rats nest of spells on every character, and basically just summoned GFs constantly in combat and it still basically worked out fine.

Yeah, it is very much designed so you don't need to know the ins and outs of the various systems (I sure as gently caress didn't know there was a GF compatibility mechanic for summoning speed until way later). It's when you do figure those systems out that the game becomes Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy because they are completely busted in the player's favor. Which is why even just messing about with them works out just fine.

jiggerypokery
Feb 1, 2012

...But I could hardly wait six months with a red hot jape like that under me belt.



I wish they had spent 2 years on it instead of 1.

It was more compelling than 9 in a lot of ways. It deserved getting more fleshed out.

zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

yospos


Simply Simon posted:

I'm not the biggest fan of FF8, but it's a fascinating mess of a game to me. My first playthrough was back when me and a buddy were going through all the FFs, and he was both into breaking games and following optimal strategies, so he had a guide open and we just broke everything. It was hilarious, but it also showed how much story we thought was stupid there actually is, and how little game you have to play - Enc-None is optional, so we put that on immediately, and then it's just running from boss to boss and playing cards. And there's not even that many bosses!

I often wonder how the game was actually meant to be played. Full on 3k life from the start and limit spam with 100+ Str can't have been the intention, right? Some designer must have thought "okay, at this part of the game, the party will reach the threshold for the enemies getting better spells to draw, so we outfit these dudes with Firaga and those ones with Meteo..." etc

But I don't know what that "intended" way might be. How often would you play cards? Which abilities would you get, when would you start refining?
You can sort of see the degree of tacked on mechanic with the different forms of draw and refining. Magic is originally gated by enemy level, enemy presence, and map draw points. If you play no refine conduct, you're generally going to be fine just drawing what's in front of you and the game is at it's most balanced this way, sort of, arguably. Item refine still gives a degree of gating by presence, although it's obviously a little less thought through considering early access to big refiner payoffs like tents. Card refine guts the whole system and let's you get end game magic a couple hours in.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011



Yeah, the second you even touch refining magic the game is busted wide open, because welp it's not even the end of the first act and now I have several thousand HP and perma-Limit Breaks.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔


zedprime posted:

You can sort of see the degree of tacked on mechanic with the different forms of draw and refining. Magic is originally gated by enemy level, enemy presence, and map draw points. If you play no refine conduct, you're generally going to be fine just drawing what's in front of you and the game is at it's most balanced this way, sort of, arguably. Item refine still gives a degree of gating by presence, although it's obviously a little less thought through considering early access to big refiner payoffs like tents. Card refine guts the whole system and let's you get end game magic a couple hours in.

Yeah, I think "just" not refining might make the game play more smoothly instead of going full challenge and/or "I have no idea what I'm doing" run. Another idea I had is not changing the order GFs learn abilities, so you'll actually have to fight a bunch before you get the crazy stuff.

Another mechanic I was wondering about is all the GF stuff, with compatibility and such - it seems completely superfluous. Maybe it'd be fun to explore that a little as well. Get some mileage out of those cool animations.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011



You can get the charge time for summoning a GF down to like 3 seconds or so, with compatibility. That's the only effect it has. It is a pretty hilariously complex system for basically nothing. Using different spells raises or lowers compatibility. Using different GFs lowers compatibility, with some having a boosted effect (like Shiva and Ifrit give +20 to themselves, -1.6 to every GF that's not one of the two, but -10 to their opposite). Except Eden, which gives +2 to itself, and +1 to every other GF. And they all have items that will raise their compatibility, but lower others'.

So much....for so little.

jiggerypokery
Feb 1, 2012

...But I could hardly wait six months with a red hot jape like that under me belt.



They could have balanced triple triad a bunch, making many more cards behave like the player/gf cards and only available later in the game and/or from specific people.

All the mechanics have basically been added with little to no balancing.

It doesn't really matter though. If you want a "harder" playthrough you can just ignore card-mod and even if you do, combat in final fantasy games tends to be so easy except for optional bosses it largely serves as a distraction from discovering the world through NPC dialogue which is the real draw of these games.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔


I'm the kind of weirdo who plays these games to poke at the combat and character building systems so FF8 breaking so easily and simply never gelled with me. I think ignoring refine is a good first step to make it a bit more varied and interesting. Maybe I will replay it at some point with that in mind!

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AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011



Honestly, the best way to play it for the 'intended' experience is like you're coming in fresh, and pretend you never even glanced at a guide. Especially no deep dive mechanics guides. Interact with the various mechanics as you like, and as feels necessary. Maybe you find a game breaking combo! If so, cool. If not, it's not going to make it unwinnable or anything.

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