Army Thread: Heart and Sesame Bagels

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Retrowave Joe: Jul 20, 2001

It�s a New Year folks. A lot of us made it through 2021, some of us didn�t. Please take a moment to remember those you may have lost.

Let�s start off the year by talking about things to come or things that just occurred Army-wise that are noteworthy.

The ACFT is still on indefinite suspension until an independent commission conducts a survey, thanks to the new NDAA. A Critical Review of the underlying study popped up on the web and the SMA�s PAO is beefing with the author. I�ll throw up links when I can.

The Integrated Personnel and Pay System - Army (IPPS-A) Release 3, bringing on Active Duty and the Army Reserve, has been delayed until Sep 22. The Guard has been using it since Jan 2019, and while I was plugged in pretty heavily then, I haven�t kept up. I�d be curious to know how well it�s working for you in your state.

Army 365�s transition is still a mess. Apparently the contract didn�t include enough licenses for E4 and below, so great job there.

What�s new in your shop?

# ? Jan 4, 2022 00:43

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# ? Apr 27, 2025 23:26

PeterCat: Apr 8, 2020; Believe women.

There's a running joke that soon the Guard will be back to sending letters prior to drill.

# ? Jan 5, 2022 02:45

Retrowave Joe: Jul 20, 2001

Here are the links to the ACFT hooplah:

Kyle Novak, a PhD mathematician and fellow for Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, the ranking member Senate Armed Services Committee, was asked to review the Baseline Soldier Physical Readiness Requirements Study done by the University of Iowa after reports came out about the high failure rate amongst female soldiers. Here's his analysis, also freely available on arxiv.org:
https://www.reddit.com/r/army/comments/rmepf3/a_critical_review_of_bsprrs_acft_study/

SMA's PAO didn't take kindly to the disparagement of the ACFT, and issued his response here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/army/comments/rml5sc/a_critical_review_of_a_critical_review_of_bsprrs/

Dr. Novak responded in kind:
https://www.reddit.com/r/army/comments/rugg8j/a_critical_review_of_a_critical_review_of_a/

This ain't happening in April, folks.

Some choice quotes:

"The underrepresentation of women during the development of the model was so significant that the Army researchers stated: �following an external review by the University of Iowa, Virtual Soldier Research Center, reviewers suggested we bootstrap additional women into the FT Riley sample to provide a more balanced model and determine if women used a different solution set for WTST performance.� Bootstrapping is a technique where data is resampled from already counted
data. In effect the researchers simply copy/pasted already overly underrepresented women, virtually cloning an extra 92 women from the original 49. Unlike in electronic music, resampling will not create anything fresh."

"When researchers asked one professor of kinesiology whether height and weight affect performance on a proposed fitness assessment, he wrote back in all caps �THIS IS BASIC HUMAN PHYSIOLOGY AND SO ROBUST AS TO RENDER IT AXIOMATIC.�

"Saying that leg tucks (or push-ups) have any real relevance as predictors in the model is a bit like giving credit to an airline passenger for a safe landing, simply because he was included on the flight manifest along with the pilot and other crew members."

"In the Army�s attempt to construct a gender neutral-test, they eliminated sit-ups, the one test that was truly gender neutral."

"Recommendations. Be truthful about the model performance and limitations. Stating that the ACFT is over 80 percent predictive is bullshit."

Retrowave Joe fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Jan 6, 2022

# ? Jan 6, 2022 15:05

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

When I saw instructions to every single lowest-common-denominator in the Army of any kind, soldier or civilian, to make their own .pst, export it, transition to A365, and import it, I knew from miles away it was going to be a nuclear powered cluster gently caress and boy howdy was that right. So, so glad my job had nothing to do with that because the help desk guys have been drinking away the pain it has caused for months.

Did not even see the licenses issue coming. Impressive.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 18:12

Retrowave Joe: Jul 20, 2001

We were provided an 86-slide PowerPoint with detailed step-by-step instructions, complete with pictures and arrows pointing where to click and everything, and almost everyone on my team still managed to gently caress it up, including me, and I'm the guy they all go to before going to the 6 lol. There's no hope for this poo poo.

# ? Jan 6, 2022 19:32

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

No no. This is how it's supposed to work. You see the commander doesn’t need an email box.

# ? Jan 7, 2022 13:33

MightyJoe36: Dec 29, 2013; Cat Army

Retired 24 years ago and it still looks like not too much has changed.

# ? Jan 7, 2022 15:03

Icon Of Sin: Dec 26, 2008

Has there been a reply-all clusterfuck yet to really seal it off?

# ? Jan 7, 2022 15:44

Naked Bear: Apr 15, 2007; Boners was recorded before a studio audience that was alive!

Retrowave Joe posted:

Dr. Novak responded in kind:
https://www.reddit.com/r/army/comments/rugg8j/a_critical_review_of_a_critical_review_of_a/

If we could, please, just admire this gem for a moment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/army/comments/rugg8j/a_critical_review_of_a_critical_review_of_a/hqzb4lx/?context=10000

# ? Jan 7, 2022 16:57

Carteret: Nov 10, 2012

The automod set to trigger off of "overhead yeet" is an excellent use of someones time

# ? Jan 7, 2022 17:13

Retrowave Joe: Jul 20, 2001

Carteret posted:

The automod set to trigger off of "overhead yeet" is an excellent use of someones time

THE OVER-HEAD YEET MEASURES THE ABILITY TO JUST loving SEND IT. ON THE COMMAND, �GET SET�, ASSUME THE POSITION BY SPINNING THE BALL TWICE IN YOUR HANDS, THEN TRY TO DRIBBLE IT LIKE A BASKET BALL ONLY TO REALIZE IT WONT BOUNCE BACK UP TO YOU. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET) OR HOWEVER YOU WANT, JUST KEEP YOUR rear end BEHIND THAT CONE. ON THE COMMAND �GO�, CHANNEL YOUR INNER TREBUCHET AND HEAVE THAT THING INTO ORBIT. THEN, RETURN TO THE STARTING POSITION AND TURN AROUND TO INSPECT IF YOU DOMED ANYONE. THE SCORER WILL REALIZE HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE WHERE THE BALL LANDED BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID HE WOULD GET HIT, SO HE STOOD TOO FAR AWAY, HE WILL THEN PLACE HIS FOOT ON THE MEASURING TAPE AND JUST GUESS.

# ? Jan 7, 2022 20:18

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

Trigger warning that poo poo geez.

# ? Jan 7, 2022 20:27

LtCol J. Krusinski: May 7, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Seriously thinking about a name-change to OVERHEAD YEET. Because that poo poo is hilarious to me for some reason. I lose it at �Just loving send it� every time. I wish Deathy were around to do voiceover stuff again because he could make the overhead yeet thing perfect.

# ? Jan 7, 2022 23:57

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

I'm the only male in my shop and the females pretty solidly outperform me. Of course they actually give a gently caress, and I don't at this point.

# ? Jan 8, 2022 05:28

11b1p: Feb 5, 2008; This picture is worth 20 words or something.

I always had the suspicion that the test was meant to be the primary roadblock to females in combat arms. Now, I am all profiled up and I was making GBS threads a brick at the bicycle test standard. I would have barely passed, and I had been absolutely smoking that test before.

# ? Jan 8, 2022 18:15

Nimmy: Feb 20, 2011; Soon young Melvin.
Your time will come.

I find the minimum standards to be quite easy to meet, with the exception of the leg tuck. I could show up drunk and pass the other 5 events, assuming I'm not so drunk that I would fall down on the run.

It is, of course, an extremely elaborate test that accomplishes the same thing as pushups, situps, 2MR

Just go back to APFT, and call it a win because now every unit has one of those Beaver Boxes they can use.

Nimmy fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jan 9, 2022

# ? Jan 9, 2022 17:06

Mustang: Jun 18, 2006; “We don’t really know where this goes — and I’m not sure we really care.”

Oh yeah, the good ol' Beaver Box, it makes you dam strong!

You guys are doing great things for your country, thank you for your service

# ? Jan 9, 2022 17:35

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Wait �overhead yeet� is a real world thing?

# ? Jan 12, 2022 01:21

PookBear: Nov 1, 2008

when do the fat bodies get kicked out

# ? Jan 12, 2022 01:21

Carteret: Nov 10, 2012

PookBear posted:

when do the fat bodies get kicked out

what's retention like? That'll probably answer that

# ? Jan 12, 2022 01:53

Retrowave Joe: Jul 20, 2001

FrozenVent posted:

Wait �overhead yeet� is a real world thing?

It�s called the Standing Power Throw, but yeah.

# ? Jan 12, 2022 02:26

PeterCat: Apr 8, 2020; Believe women.

Retrowave Joe posted:

It�s called the Standing Power Throw, but yeah.

Possibly one of the dumbest things I've seen in the Army. Right up there with putting pull up bars at every base and armory across the country, then not using them to do pull ups.

# ? Jan 12, 2022 03:15

Mr_Ruckus: Jul 8, 2008

Retrowave Joe posted:

We were provided an 86-slide PowerPoint with detailed step-by-step instructions, complete with pictures and arrows pointing where to click and everything, and almost everyone on my team still managed to gently caress it up, including me, and I'm the guy they all go to before going to the 6 lol. There's no hope for this poo poo.

I'm the 6 and still hosed it up with some slides to go by.

# ? Jan 12, 2022 03:34

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006; Utterly Dethpicable

It sounds like you need the good slides, the Glengarry slides.

# ? Jan 12, 2022 15:57

pmchem: Jan 22, 2010

A.o.D. posted:

It sounds like you need the good slides, the Glengarry slides.

coffee is for yeeters

# ? Jan 12, 2022 16:31

rifles: Oct 8, 2007; is this thing working

Retrowave Joe posted:

It�s called the Standing Power Throw, but yeah.

Embarrassingly the hardest thing for me in the entire ACFT. I can max the leg tucks (lmao) but throwing a ball backwards over my head just doesn't compute.

# ? Jan 12, 2022 17:56

MightyJoe36: Dec 29, 2013; Cat Army

PeterCat posted:

Possibly one of the dumbest things I've seen in the Army. Right up there with putting pull up bars at every base and armory across the country, then not using them to do pull ups.

Pull ups I can see, as they actually translate to functional strength you would use in combat. WTF good is throwing a ball over your head backwards?

# ? Jan 12, 2022 19:55

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

MightyJoe36 posted:

Pull ups I can see, as they actually translate to functional strength you would use in combat. WTF good is throwing a ball over your head backwards?

It's for after WWIII when we're all reduced to throwing rocks off of walls at each other again.

# ? Jan 12, 2022 22:50

Diarrhea Elemental: Apr 2, 2012; Am I correct in my assumption, you fish-faced enemy of the people?

I've got an exercise science degree and I'm really struggling to think of a justification for that bullshit over... Almost literally anything else I can think of.

# ? Jan 13, 2022 05:24

Mustang: Jun 18, 2006; “We don’t really know where this goes — and I’m not sure we really care.”

Diarrhea Elemental posted:

I'm really struggling to think of a justification for that bullshit over... Almost literally anything else I can think of.

This, but for everything else the Army does too.

# ? Jan 13, 2022 05:29

PeterCat: Apr 8, 2020; Believe women.

Diarrhea Elemental posted:

I've got an exercise science degree and I'm really struggling to think of a justification for that bullshit over... Almost literally anything else I can think of.

Some General thought it was a good idea after his WOD.

To me it just seems like a good way to injure yourself.

# ? Jan 13, 2022 06:39

Icon Of Sin: Dec 26, 2008

PeterCat posted:

To me it just seems like a good way to injure yourself.

Army thread: it just seems like a good way to injure yourself.

# ? Jan 13, 2022 06:52

rifles: Oct 8, 2007; is this thing working

Diarrhea Elemental posted:

I've got an exercise science degree and I'm really struggling to think of a justification for that bullshit over... Almost literally anything else I can think of.

I really only see two positives out of the entire ACFT debacle..

1. Units have equipment now, even in the guard supplies have trickled down to company level in most areas.

2. The fitness trainer courses are apparently decent now? I wonder if anyone else has any knowledge of specifics, being in the guard it's basically a zero-interaction thing for me but for active that seems like it could be a good thing?

# ? Jan 13, 2022 14:44

Retrowave Joe: Jul 20, 2001

rifles posted:

I really only see two positives out of the entire ACFT debacle..

1. Units have equipment now, even in the guard supplies have trickled down to company level in most areas.

I�d have to check our unit/command�s current policy but during the rollout we were only authorized to use that equipment for the test.

# ? Jan 13, 2022 16:42

PeterCat: Apr 8, 2020; Believe women.

This seems important if you're in the Guard.

ulmont posted:

Opinion! Technical retirement opinion about National Guard technicians and that�s it.

BABCOCK v. KIJAKAZI, ACTING COMMISSIONER OF SOCIAL SECURITY.
TLDR:
Retirement payments made to a �dual-status military technician� are not �based wholly on service as a member of uniformed service� and therefore reduce Social Security payouts, because they are based on employment not subject to Social Security taxes.

Holding / Majority Opinion (Barrett)
The Social Security Act generally reduces the benefits of retirees who receive payments from separate pensions based on employment not subject to Social Security taxes. The reduction is not triggered, though, by payments �based wholly on service as a member of a uniformed service.� We must decide whether this exception applies to civil-service pension payments based on employment as a �dual-status military technician��a federal civilian employee who provides technical or administrative assistance to the National Guard. We hold that it does not.

Retirees receive Social Security benefits according to a statutory formula based on average past earnings�But the formula originally did not count earnings from jobs exempt from Social Security taxes, so it calculated artificially low earnings for retirees who spent part of their careers in those jobs. As a result, those retirees received an artificially high percentage of their calculated earnings in Social Security benefits�plus, in many cases, payments from separate pensions to boot.

Congress responded to this �windfall� by modifying the formula to reduce benefits when a retiree receives such a separate pension payment. But it exempted several categories of pension payments, including �a payment based wholly on service as a member of a uniformed service.� The upshot is that pensions based on uniformed service do not trigger a reduction in Social Security benefits.

This case concerns the application of the windfall elimination provision to a unique position in federal employment: the �military technician (dual status).�...On one hand, the dual-status technician is a �civilian employee� engaged in �organizing, administering, instructing,� �training,� or �maintenance and repair of supplies� to assist the National Guard. On the other, the technician �is required as a condition of that employment to maintain membership in the [National Guard]� and must wear a uniform while working.

This dual role means that technicians perform work in two separate capacities that yield different forms of compensation. First, they work full time as technicians in a civilian capacity. For this work, they receive civil-service pay and, if hired before 1984, Civil Service Retirement System pension payments from the Office of Personnel Management. Second, they participate as National Guard members in part-time drills, training, and (sometimes) active-duty deployment. For this work, they receive military pay and pension payments from a different arm of the Federal Government, the Defense Finance and Accounting Service.

[Plaintiff is one of those people and applied for benefits]

The [Social Security Administration] granted his application but determined that his civil-service pension payments, which he received for his work as a civilian technician, triggered the windfall elimination provision. So the agency applied the modified formula to reduce his Social Security benefits by about $100 per month.

[He appealed, then sued, makes it to the Supreme Court]

The dispute is narrow: All agree that Babcock�s separate military pension for his National Guard service does not trigger the windfall elimination provision. And all agree that Civil Service Retirement System pensions generally do trigger that provision. The only question is whether Babcock�s civil-service pension for technician work avoids triggering the provision�s reduction in benefits because it falls within the exception for �a payment based wholly on service as a member of a uniformed service.� The answer depends on whether Babcock�s technician work was service �as� a member of the National Guard.
�
It was not. In context, �as� is most naturally read to mean �[i]n the role, capacity, or function of.� And the role, capacity, or function in which a technician serves is that of a civilian, not a member of the National Guard. The statute defining the technician job makes that point broadly and repeatedly: �For purposes of this section and any other provision of law,� a technician �is� a �civilian employee,� �assigned to a civilian position� and �authorized and accounted for as� a �civilian.�

This statute�s plain meaning �becomes even more apparent when viewed in� the broader statutory context. While working in a civilian capacity, technicians are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. They possess characteristically civilian rights to seek redress for employment discrimination and to earn workers� compensation, disability benefits, and compensatory time off for overtime work. And, as particularly significant in the context of retirement benefits, technicians hired before 1984 are members of the �civil service� entitled to pensions under Title 5 of the U. S. Code, which governs the pay and benefits of civil servants. These provisions demonstrate that Congress consistently distinguished technician employment from National Guard service.
�
Determining whether Babcock�s technician employment was service �as� a member of the National Guard does not turn on factors like whether he wore his uniform to work. It turns on how Congress classified the job�and as already discussed, Congress classified dual-status technicians as �civilian.� Babcock dismisses that distinction as one drawn for purposes of �administrative bookkeeping,� but bookkeeping matters when it comes to pay and benefits.

Babcock�s civil-service pension payments fall outside the Social Security Act�s uniformed-services exception because they are based on service in his civilian capacity. We therefore affirm the judgment of the Court of Appeals. It is so ordered.

Lineup:
Barrett, joined by everyone but Gorsuch. Dissent by Gorsuch.

Dissent (Gorsuch)
Dual-status military technicians hold �a unique position in federal employment.� Not only do they sometimes serve on active duty, as the petitioner did. By statute, they spend the rest of their time working for the Guard�on matters ranging from training others to administration to equipment maintenance. At all times, they must �maintain membership� in the National Guard and wear a Guard uniform while on the job. The authority to discharge or discipline these individuals, too, rests with the Adjutant General. Given these features of their employment, I would hold that dual-status technicians �serv[e] as� members of the National Guard in all the work they perform for this country day in and day out.

I appreciate the analogy to police officers moonlighting as private security guards. But to my mind dual-status technicians are more like part-time police officers employed in their outside hours by the same police department to train recruits, administer the precinct office, and repair squad cars�all on the condition that they wear their police uniforms and maintain their status as officers. I suspect most reasonable officers in that situation would consider the totality of their work to constitute �service as . . . member[s]� of the police force. So too here I expect most Guardsmen who serve as �dual-status technicians��who come to work every day for the Guard, in a Guard uniform, and subject to Guard discipline�would consider all of their work to represent �service as . . . member[s]� of the National Guard. I would honor that reasonable understanding and would not curtail servicemembers� Social Security benefits based primarily on implications extracted from other, separate �bookkeeping� statutes.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-480_b97c.pdf

# ? Jan 13, 2022 20:26

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; Mods please perma this sicko!

J/K! Exordia is actually excellent and way less horny than that post might imply.

Hello army people,

I have a book coming out soon* and there is a bunch of army poo poo in it. The book is an alien first contact story set in Kurdistan and it's pretty fun. I could really use an expert reader who can talk to the little details of how infantry circa 2013 would communicate with each other, complain, command, and fight. I figure cribbing off NATO publications from the 1980s is not going to work out well. I promise the book is good, you'll enjoy it. If anyone's interested, or if you can recommend someone to me, please shoot me a PM!

Sorry for busting in to your professional space with my stupid writer stuff.

*soon in publishing time, it'll hit shelves in late 2023

# ? Feb 9, 2022 16:57

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

Just a bunch of farting and grunting. With some pointing.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 19:47

bulletsponge13: Apr 28, 2010

I don't know if it's possible, but it might work better as a brain trust thing, because even between units things might be slightly different.

If you have questions about specifics, I think more eyes is better.

Bear is mind also, no expects it to be perfect. Even in fiction written by dudes who did the poo poo, they will screw up something. Unless your main audience is a bunch of Veteran's, don't sweat it too terribly much. I'm a nitpicky gently caress, but I normally forgive sins in media, provided they aren't completely pants on head wrong.

Totally interested in reading it, but useless to help you.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 19:55

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

If nobody draws a dick on a wall I won't believe a thing.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 20:03

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# ? Apr 27, 2025 23:26

ASAPI: Apr 20, 2007; I invented the line.

bird food bathtub posted:

If nobody draws a dick on a wall I won't believe a thing.

Also, a private needs to lose their weapon/helmet.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 20:27

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