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harperdc
Jul 24, 2007

This doesn’t bode well for accountability or actual root-and-branch change, IMO. Article includes a quote about how football clubs are “unique environments,” and if that doesn’t ring the alarms I don’t know what will.

https://twitter.com/afl/status/1574231977628094465

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Solemn Sloth
Jul 11, 2015

Baby you can shout at me,
But you can't need my eyes.
Surely “football clubs are unique organisations” is a large part of the problem

MysticalMachineGun
Apr 5, 2005

Also love the term "historical", it was like, within the last 5 years

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007

Solemn Sloth posted:

Surely “football clubs are unique organisations” is a large part of the problem

Ding ding ding

Thinking this is all to get a voice on that panel who knows the old boys clubs and argues to keep them that way.

You Am I
May 20, 2001

Me @ your poasting

Geelong's Mad Monday from the nursing home is going well:









https://twitter.com/dangerfield35/status/1574258566571372544

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

harperdc posted:

This doesn’t bode well for accountability or actual root-and-branch change, IMO. Article includes a quote about how football clubs are “unique environments,” and if that doesn’t ring the alarms I don’t know what will.

https://twitter.com/afl/status/1574231977628094465

loving hell, they really want the panel to sign off on it just being normal. They need outsiders that have never been involved in the AFL.

cmndstab
May 20, 2006

Huge Internet Celebrity!

harperdc posted:

This doesn’t bode well for accountability or actual root-and-branch change, IMO. Article includes a quote about how football clubs are “unique environments,” and if that doesn’t ring the alarms I don’t know what will.

https://twitter.com/afl/status/1574231977628094465

quote:

"Football clubs are unique environments," Nicholson said.

"They become a second home for players, and coaches are often required to be much more than just football mentors.

"Coaches are regularly called on to provide advice and support on non-football related issues, particularly with younger players who have left home to join an AFL club.

"It would significantly enhance the investigation if someone who intimately understands that environment and has deep experience in managing the wellbeing of players was included on the panel."

Jesus Christ.

Spedman
Mar 12, 2010

Kangaroos hate Hasselblads

harperdc posted:

This doesn’t bode well for accountability or actual root-and-branch change, IMO. Article includes a quote about how football clubs are “unique environments,” and if that doesn’t ring the alarms I don’t know what will.

https://twitter.com/afl/status/1574231977628094465

No wonder the Indigenous players in question have lawyered up and will only work with an actual independent investigation.

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007

Spedman posted:

No wonder the Indigenous players in question have lawyered up and will only work with an actual independent investigation.

Didn’t know that, and that is a very good thing if accurate. Collingwood was bad enough, but from that ABC article there’s enough to warrant actual serious repercussions this time. Imagine considering any of those actions in a “normal” workplace.

BrigadierSensible
Feb 16, 2012

I've got a pocket full of cheese🧀, and a garden full of trees🌴.

quote:

Football clubs are unique environments," Nicholson said.

"They become a second home for players, and coaches are often required to be much more than just football mentors.

"Coaches are regularly called on to provide advice and support on non-football related issues, particularly with younger players who have left home to join an AFL club.

"It would significantly enhance the investigation if someone who intimately understands that environment and has deep experience in managing the wellbeing of players was included on the panel."

This quote shows that they are already working on their defense. The defense I always knew they would use.

"We were just trying to protect those poor young kids. Protect them from the horrible responsibilities and burdens of having a life, family, and connections outside of football. And hanging around with 'those kind' of people. It's a pure coincidence we did it only with young, vulnerable, suggestible indigenous kids from country towns."

Also, even though it is likely nothing of real significance will change, given they have been named, Clarko and Fagan are surely hosed, and their top positions made untenable. At least for now. Watch them both sit out 2-3 years of "punishment/penance" and get rehired.

gently caress them all. Burn it to the ground.

NTRabbit
Aug 15, 2012

i wear this armour to protect myself from the histrionics of hysterical women

bitches




BrigadierSensible posted:

This quote shows that they are already working on their defense. The defense I always knew they would use.

"We were just trying to protect those poor young kids. Protect them from the horrible responsibilities and burdens of having a life, family, and connections outside of football. And hanging around with 'those kind' of people. It's a pure coincidence we did it only with young, vulnerable, suggestible indigenous kids from country towns."

Also, even though it is likely nothing of real significance will change, given they have been named, Clarko and Fagan are surely hosed, and their top positions made untenable. At least for now. Watch them both sit out 2-3 years of "punishment/penance" and get rehired.

gently caress them all. Burn it to the ground.

North and Brisbane have already 100% backed them, they won't be sitting out

Spedman
Mar 12, 2010

Kangaroos hate Hasselblads

NTRabbit posted:

North and Brisbane have already 100% backed them, they won't be sitting out

I think both clubs have done that to make it 100% AFL/Hawthorns problem, because if they’re found to be forcing abortions the clubs will drop them like a hot potato, if they’re cleared they’ve still got their coach they want. I think it’s a purely cynical/calculated move

aejix
Sep 18, 2007

It's about finding that next group of core players we can win with in the next 6, 8, 10 years. Let's face it, it's hard for 20-, 21-, 22-year-olds to lead an NHL team. Look at the playoffs.

That quote is from fucking 2018. Fuck you Jim
Pillbug

Solemn Sloth posted:

As mentioned before, Quarters are shorter because time isn’t called off for stoppages.

Players aren’t as capable for a couple reasons:
- elite women athletes aren’t as strong as male counterparts
-AFLW doesn’t pay a full time wage so players can’t put full time equivalent into skills or physical development
- We still haven’t reached a draft year where the players involved have known right through juniors that an elite pathway is available to them
- School, juniors, and representative programs don’t put as much effort into boys as girls

This then manifests on the field in a number of ways:

The AFLW set shot range for most players is around 25-30 metres, whereas in AFLM most listed players are capable of having a shot from within the 50m arc

This means the area you need to defend is much smaller, and you can create congestion more easily by allowing players relatively free or under zone defence outside 30 or so metres.

It also means there’s an extra disposal required while maintaining possession for most scoring chains, even in the men’s comp this would reduce scoring, but the women’s game has much lower disposal efficiency overall which multiplies this.

Smaller kicker range and lower disposal efficiency also promotes more congestion around the ball. There’s no use staying 60m forward of the ball if your team is extremely unlikely to get it that far without a stoppage. Similarly there’s not much use sitting 50m behind the ball as a goalkeeper. There’s also a lot of missed handballs that would general be hit by most AFLM players which mean instead of the ball getting to the outside in possession, it remains in the contest and potentially another stoppage.

It’s a lot easier to spoil a mark than take it, so in a lower skilled competition you have less marks taken, both from possession and intercept.

The combination of kicking distance and fewer marks is hard to overstate. Most AFLM teams under minimal pressure would take one kick from the midpoint of the ground to having a shot on goal. For AFLW it’s two kicks both of which are more likely to end up as contested ball than marks. If two teams are evenly matched, you need more coin flips in a row to go your way to score.

As someone pretty new to watching the sport frequently, this was cool ty

gay picnic defence
Oct 5, 2009


I'M CONCERNED ABOUT A NUMBER OF THINGS

quote:

Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Mark Evans were accused by a fellow Hawthorn coach of running the football department like the “Russian Mafia’’, the club’s review of its handling of Indigenous players reveals.
Two pregnant partners of players lost their unborn children during the “traumatic events’’, the explosive Hawthorn-commissioned report also noted.

The report further concluded that between 2010 and 2016, coaches Clarkson, Fagan and Jason Burt used “bullying and intimidation’’ against Indigenous players and their partners, with the incidents so serious as to “amount to human rights abuses’’.

The Herald Sun has exclusively obtained the full report titled Cultural Safety Review: Of Past and Present Indigenous Players and Staff of the Hawthorn Football Club.

Clarkson, who was appointed North Melbourne coach in August, has categorically denied any wrongdoing.

On Tuesday, Brisbane coach Fagan said: “I confirm, as I said in my earlier statement, that I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club, and that I intend to defend myself.’’

It is not possible for the Herald Sun to independently verify the claims or assertions made in the report and the paper does not suggest they are completely true and accurate, only that they have been made and are being investigated by various bodies.

The report asserted that the alleged treatment at the club of First Nations players involved “bullying and intimidation tactics … to be used to isolate First Nations players from their families and communities”.

These “aggressive intimidatory actions were undertaken by the most senior of the coaching and management hierarchy’’, wrote the review’s authors, led by project manager Phil Egan.

A Hawks coach, who the Herald Sun has chosen not to name, told the reviewers: “If you dare question their methods, you were frozen out.”

“I knew this day would come,’’ the insider told the authors, according to the report.

The whistleblower coach, who is not Indigenous, “reached out’’ to the authors of the report who up to that point had only interviewed Indigenous people in order to corroborate parts of the testimonies from players and their partners.

“He went on to say Evans, Clarkson, Fagan and Burt operated the football department like The Russian Mafia,” the report said.

The review includes several pages of harrowing testimony from three partners of players and another player.

As was revealed last week, one testimony claimed Clarkson told a player he should terminate their unborn child.

The report asserts that “partners of players who have tabled the serious allegations were in the early stages of pregnancy, with two mothers losing their unborn child during these traumatic events’’.

The testimony of one partner said: “For three grown men (Clarkson, Fagan and Burt) to have walked into my house with no warning, and intimidate, trap and bully me full well knowing I’m carrying a child is just by no means acceptable.

“I was in complete agony after they left, I felt like my world had just come crashing down.

“If anything was to happen to this baby I would have no choice but to hold the Hawthorn Football Club and those three as individuals responsible and it is the last thing on earth I’d ever want to do.’’

A player told the authors: “My partner and daughter were then not allowed to fly over to Melbourne to come and see me until my daughter was four months old, as the club had told my partner and myself that they would be a distraction to my football career.

“When I was delisted, all my past trauma resurfaced, and I have been extremely unwell since. I am now deemed disabled, and I am on disability support pension, and I am also awaiting NDIS funding for a full time support worker to work with me 7 days a week.

“I have had multiple suicide attempts, multiple stays in the mental health unit at the hospital … the trauma that I deal with every day is because of the way the Club treated myself and my family.’’

Another testimony described a Clarkson visit to their home. “Alister (sic) Clarkson came over to visit us one night. I remember his comments as soon as he entered the house because I was so shocked. Clarko – “Oh (player’s name) this house is nice, you have the kids artwork up and it’s nice and clean. You should invite your teammates over for dinner and things. For all they know you’re living in a shack in the desert somewhere”.

‘’I was insulted straight away. It was clear that this Hawthorn official had a view on how Aboriginal people live and he wasn’t shy in voicing it.’’

Burt and Evans were contacted for comment, but did not respond before publication.

Solemn Sloth
Jul 11, 2015

Baby you can shout at me,
But you can't need my eyes.
Burn it down and go through every other club with a loving microscope and a sledgehammer

Chairchucker
Nov 14, 2006

The man was stunningly well dressed. He had a smart looking jacket, and a really neat looking cape, the lining of which was shimmering and sparkling in more than Oriental splendour, which is a great deal of splendour indeed, just ask Kipling.




Every time I see this story pop up my FB feed I'm dumb enough to open up the comments. I should stop.

cmndstab
May 20, 2006

Huge Internet Celebrity!
So basically the first line of defence that "well the report itself doesn't allege much, it's just a reporter fishing for stories" has of course proved to be bullshit.

Won't be long now before they all pivot to "well actually it's good that the coaches treated young indigenous players as inferior because actually they are inferior."

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

Selwood calling it a day, had a feeling that it was going to happen since he was so emotional after kicking his goal on GF day and everyone got around him. Plus it's rare for a player to go out on top of the mountain while still playing well.

BrigadierSensible
Feb 16, 2012

I've got a pocket full of cheese🧀, and a garden full of trees🌴.

My doom feeling is that all Hawthorn have to do is find 1(one) non-indigenous young player that Clarkson, or Fagan once had a chat to and said "Hey mate, it'd be better for you to focus on your football in Melbourne rather than muck around with your larrikan mates/family back home."

They will then claim that this is exactly the same as what they did to the kids in the report, (and most likely several others), and that they had the best interests of the young men at heart, a footy club is a community etc. etc. And some dickhead, one-of-the-boys, investigator will agree. Then it will all be swept under the rug and Clarkson and Fagan continue in their highly paid, public roles as influencers of young men.

Also, in a purely practical note. Who the gently caress would want to get recruited by Hawthorn now? Indigenous or non-indigenous. It has been shown that they are more than happy to intefere in your private life, gently caress with your romantic relationships, and it doesn't matter how big a star you are, the top brass at the club will still insult your wife, and tell you how to live your life, (Jeff vs Cyril).

So who would willingly go there, either as a young player, or an experienced one?

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007

BrigadierSensible posted:

They will then claim that this is exactly the same as what they did to the kids in the report, (and most likely several others), and that they had the best interests of the young men at heart, a footy club is a community etc. etc. And some dickhead, one-of-the-boys, investigator will agree. Then it will all be swept under the rug and Clarkson and Fagan continue in their highly paid, public roles as influencers of young men.

Yeah when the AFL talked about wanting somebody with coaching experience on the independent panel, that’s exactly what they’re preparing to do. And it’s being telegraphed from a mile away (or a Ben Brown run-up, whichever is longer)

cmndstab
May 20, 2006

Huge Internet Celebrity!

BrigadierSensible posted:

Also, in a purely practical note. Who the gently caress would want to get recruited by Hawthorn now? Indigenous or non-indigenous. It has been shown that they are more than happy to intefere in your private life, gently caress with your romantic relationships, and it doesn't matter how big a star you are, the top brass at the club will still insult your wife, and tell you how to live your life, (Jeff vs Cyril).

So who would willingly go there, either as a young player, or an experienced one?

This reminds me of the 2007 draft when the Crows took Dangerfield after being widely tipped to take Brad Ebert. Ebert ended up going to West Coast, and his uncle Russell Ebert (who is a legend in SA footy) absolute teed off on the radio, blaming the Crows for sending his nephew to the Eagles where he would be surrounded by all the drug and cultural issues happening there at the time. He was absolutely furious about it, using expressions like "blood will be on your hands" etc. And this was with West Coast just fresh off back-to-back grand final appearances!

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kZNsMn51_mZonP7bWFqZnCw8296-d0mV/view

The Hawthorn emails are really loving bad. TW for exactly what you expected.

Testekill fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Sep 28, 2022

thepokey
Jul 20, 2004

Let me start off with a basket of chips. Then move on to the pollo asado taco.
I cannot imagine how she would have felt after all of that to have received that final reply at the end. JFC put them all in prison

You Am I
May 20, 2001

Me @ your poasting

Joel Selwood has called it a day on his AFL playing career. He made the decision before the West Coast match 6 weeks ago. What a great player he was, hopefully will have a great post game career.

Also a pretty funny story that happened after the GF:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPxC3eUCRNc&t=915s

thepokey
Jul 20, 2004

Let me start off with a basket of chips. Then move on to the pollo asado taco.
He had absolutely no right to make me like him in the final moments of his career

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

put clinton in prison imo


harperdc posted:

This doesn’t bode well for accountability or actual root-and-branch change, IMO. Article includes a quote about how football clubs are “unique environments,” and if that doesn’t ring the alarms I don’t know what will.

https://twitter.com/afl/status/1574231977628094465

A guy who understands the white man's burden, no doubt. It's been 200 years and they're still treating indigenous people like troublesome children who need constant supervision. If that's their defense, it's a bloody weak one that only a sheer narcissist would come up with.

Diet Crack
Jan 15, 2001

In lighter news, look at this hot trash - glad I got a $20 voucher for my birthday specifically to buy this

MysticalMachineGun
Apr 5, 2005

thepokey posted:

He had absolutely no right to make me like him in the final moments of his career

snaeksikn
Feb 28, 2010

:qq::qq::qq::qq::qq::qq::qq:
Weird that Melbourne chased Grundy over Gunston

Weird that Gunston thinks he fits into a stacked Brisbane forward line

cmndstab
May 20, 2006

Huge Internet Celebrity!

Testekill posted:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kZNsMn51_mZonP7bWFqZnCw8296-d0mV/view

The Hawthorn emails are really loving bad. TW for exactly what you expected.

Jesus gently caress, those emails actually make things even worse!! That poor woman, I'm so drat angry about this.

I really hope something is done about this.

gay picnic defence
Oct 5, 2009


I'M CONCERNED ABOUT A NUMBER OF THINGS

cmndstab posted:

I really hope something is done about this.

haha

Even if something is done Clarko has already decided it won't be fair on him.

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

cmndstab posted:

Jesus gently caress, those emails actually make things even worse!! That poor woman, I'm so drat angry about this.

I really hope something is done about this.

Especially the last one, Newbold is just saying "well I can't help you so stop emailing me" and that's heartbreaking. Here's a woman in a lovely situation that the club put her in and the Hawks president just doesn't want to do anything.

gay picnic defence
Oct 5, 2009


I'M CONCERNED ABOUT A NUMBER OF THINGS
oh, essendon got the poo poo scott twin

BrigadierSensible
Feb 16, 2012

I've got a pocket full of cheese🧀, and a garden full of trees🌴.

Testekill posted:

Especially the last one, Newbold is just saying "well I can't help you so stop emailing me" and that's heartbreaking. Here's a woman in a lovely situation that the club put her in and the Hawks president just doesn't want to do anything.

Worse than that.

What he says in that last short terse bullshit email is essentially: "I am not aware of any of the horrible poo poo things that you have been through which you just told me. So not only can't I do anything for you, and am handpassing you off to someone else, I now have a papertrail where I have said I don't know anything about what they did to you, (nor apparently what goes on at my club), and have no power to do anything about it, but I am not responsible in any way. So take your whinging elsewhere sister, and stop wasting my valuable time."

Which is immeasurably hosed up.

thepokey
Jul 20, 2004

Let me start off with a basket of chips. Then move on to the pollo asado taco.
I can’t believe I’m saying this but I’m actually happy we got Brad Scott. I for one welcome our new whinging overlord

Forum Joe
Jun 7, 2001

Every day I'm shuffling!

Ask me about Tasmania!

thepokey posted:

I can’t believe I’m saying this but I’m actually happy we got Brad Scott. I for one welcome our new whinging overlord

I have no problem with his whinging or his personality traits, but does he have the experience of success? He didn’t exactly take north to soaring results…

thepokey
Jul 20, 2004

Let me start off with a basket of chips. Then move on to the pollo asado taco.
I thought he did well with North given what he was working with with that list and resources. Also sure he would have learned a lot from that + his time in AFL HQ (i'm hoping that skill set in particular + his hard edge has him well equipped to deal with the circus that is our club). Also think he's well placed in regards to a return to coaching. He isn't that old, and given that he left a cushy AFL role for coaching would lead me to believe he is pretty dedicated to the role rather than being a stop-gap coach to "right the ship". I feel like he's in it for the long-haul. Also think he should be able to give our list the kick up the rear end it probably needs. I don't know, something about it feels kind of right.

I had this feeling with someone like Yze for example, he could be a great coach, but wasn't really what we need at the moment. He seems better suited to a club that has their poo poo together but are ready for a rebuild. A Geelong/Richmond/Swans/Dogs/Port type when they are ready to start a-fresh with a new young coach to build the next era around. I kinda had the feeling we would probably just ruin Yze. Also I am so loving glad we didn't go back to Hird. That to me is almost the biggest tick in terms of the club turning its ways around.

Solemn Sloth
Jul 11, 2015

Baby you can shout at me,
But you can't need my eyes.

Forum Joe posted:

I have no problem with his whinging or his personality traits, but does he have the experience of success? He didn’t exactly take north to soaring results…

imo he massively overachieved with what he had at north

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007

It's a bit of a re-tread hire, but I think Essendon getting somebody outside of their ecosystem (or aiming for the biggest name like Clarkson pre-all of the Hawthorn news) is probably the right solution for them.

still will chuckle a bit when Bad Scott starts turning chartreuse in the coaches box next season wearing red and black, but it is probably a variety of the right move.

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Solemn Sloth
Jul 11, 2015

Baby you can shout at me,
But you can't need my eyes.
I’m pretty glad we’ve got Yze with us for another year

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