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im the vertically mounted 24 inch computer monitor in teslas that replaces all physical nobs and rejects the 100 years of incremental automotive interface design
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Jan 19, 2022 19:00
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someday steve jobs will be held to account for his crimes
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Jan 19, 2022 19:01
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rotor posted:i swap between a mouse and a wacom tablet wacom tablets are pretty great. i think its very interesting how a lot of players of games like OSU! use the really small ones and comp precision by using all of the muscles in their arms, which is a technique usually used not only by artists in traditional media but also musicians like guitar players and even drummers. specifically, you're taught or incentivised to spread the load across multiple muscles and so by using multiple muscles, you have multiple points of input and thus correction vs using only the wrist or fingers. my favourite usecase of this is the recent discovery of rolling in very high level tetris, over hyper-tapping popularized by Thor Aackerlund in 1990. the game has an input limit called delayed autostop akin to when you hold keys down on your computer, which has a 1 frame input, then a 12 frame wait, then a 12hz input rate. hyper-tapping goes all the way to 14hz immediately with zero delay, letting you input much faster. rolling, discovered by player cheez this year has the finger select the direction and then uses four fingers against the back of the NES controller to chord multiple inputs at a rate of what's thought to be around 40hz. this means Cheez is able to make inputs at a level which previously were considered super-human, blasting through the level 29 killscreen (at which no human input can continue to effectively play the game) and went well beyond into level 50 or so in a recent world record attempt. video if you want more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-BZ5-Q48lE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GefEJZltuNk tetris, i say again, is a phenomenal example of human factors engineering at work not only for the players and their discoveries of techniques but also the differences in the versions of the game, the psychology of how high level play works vs automaticity phenomenon which arise, the literal tetris effect phenomenon where players start hallucinating the blocks outside of play or in dreams and the way the game itself has changed over the years with variants and major changes in not only the core game loop but also the depiction of the game or tools provided to players (eg, grandmaster tetris which gives you a 4 piece lead and doesn't lock shapes to the stack on impact, permitting players to brute-force search at insanely high speeds or chord and hold pieces with advanced knowledge to perform some really crazy stacking phenomenon) watch a documentary called Ecstacy of Order http://watch.ecstasyoforder.com/ if you wanna know more about it. it was also the backbone of the promotional campaign of the recent game, which i honestly think was a very enjoyable trailer and i've watched it five or six times now, spotting easter-eggs each time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr8fVT_Ds4Q i really like tetris Silver Alicorn posted:this is a good thread even if I don’t understand it. I use a trackball i use a trackball too. botched my arm up in an accident as a kid which makes using a mouse extremely painful after a while. what trackball do you use? mine's an mx ergo. i'd really love to get an 8ball trackball for the ergo, or get it in white but the modding scene for trackballs is nothing close to that of keyboards or mice, which makes me really sad. Expo70 fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 19:05
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Asymmetric POSTer posted:im the vertically mounted 24 inch computer monitor in teslas that replaces all physical nobs and rejects the 100 years of incremental automotive interface design touch screens are honestly one of the worst things to happen to cars because they saturate you so drat quickly. what gets me is they don't even have a finger-well so you can afford your hand against the screen and use your thumb to make inputs to comp out shaking and road conditions like passenger aircraft with these features do. even with a car, your control ribbon (the row of buttons what works the things) should really be vertical, not horizontal, and it should rank the buttons by frequency of observation at your eyeline vs frequency of input closest to the resting positions of your hands during normal driving. they should all be marked with clear icons, and lights depicting their status. if they have toggle switches which can depress themselves, they should mechanically depress themselves rather than digitally so you are notified of it happening spatially with your own drat hearing and the vibration of the cockpit. if you are mucking about in menus to do poo poo, you aren't driving. if you have to muck about in menus to do simple things, you aren't maintaining driving during what should be standard operation of the vehicle. this poo poo makes me so goddamn angry. MononcQc posted:It can be: https://worldwarwings.com/1950s-study-reveals-no-such-thing-as-average-pilot-you-might-have-a-chance/ ah its the same logic consumer preference research came to!: "there is no perfect pickle, there are only perfect pickles!" Howard Moskowitz research is super interesting but i'm annoyed that malcom gladwell was how i was exposed to his work edit: two for the price of one, sorry Expo70 fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 19:13
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also they don't work with gloves or mittens in winter and commodity tablets and phones can overheat by just being left on a table in the sun and a car's habitacle sure is not the best place for that either. it's mis-adapted to all use cases and only a shortcut for bundling poo poo software and adding functionality later
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Jan 19, 2022 19:16
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its worth remembering that gorilla-arm interfaces from resistive touch screen times in the 80s were inflicted on people because they seem fine in a sales cycle. really if you accept that sales and procurement is the only way a whole bureaucracy has to interface with reality you get to understand why dipshit things like that happen. the rafale example - no military industrial sales cycle goes through without looking at native industry first. the procurement is explicitly nationalist and usually pretty racist, the lobbyists are in their native element, etc etc. it was always gonna be that lockmart or boeing was gonna get that contract and then they figure things out
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Jan 19, 2022 19:19
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bob dobbs is dead posted:its worth remembering that gorilla-arm interfaces from resistive touch screen times in the 80s were inflicted on people because they seem fine in a sales cycle. yeah, i don't like that they make things what make people dead an stuff but the research they do because of all of the money they spend is very interesting. bureaucracy and doin wars should be abolished honestly and i look forward to fully automated luxury gay space communism.
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Jan 19, 2022 19:24
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Expo70 posted:i use a trackball too. botched my arm up in an accident as a kid which makes using a mouse extremely painful after a while. what trackball do you use? mine's an mx ergo. i'd really love to get an 8ball trackball for the ergo, or get it in white but the modding scene for trackballs is nothing close to that of keyboards or mice, which makes me really sad. I use an Elecom HUGE, it’s a really premium device and looks cool. I think Neo had one in the new Matrix movie
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Jan 19, 2022 19:30
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Silver Alicorn posted:I use an Elecom HUGE, it’s a really premium device and looks cool. I think Neo had one in the new Matrix movie oh wow that is cool as heck looking also i really enjoyed that movie. not to go off topic, but the people who didn't like it i think are the people it was specifically addressing and they lack the media literacy to realize they're the subject of the movie's inherent problem in its thesis. does the elecom have any tools for tilting it or anything like that? i got the ergo mainly for the magnetic tenting to reduce wrist strain. i'm kinda curious to see what the elecom does to set itself apart from the crowd beyond being finger driven, over thumb driven. wouldn't this make horizontal movement slower, thus needing it means differential horizontal/vertical acceleration curves, and thus that it would have other problems with psychological pairity?
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Jan 19, 2022 19:35
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I don’t know of any accessories for it but I haven’t looked very deep. idk about movement. thumb trackballs feel weird to me though. I’m probably using it wrong but I’m pretty good at flicking the ball around to cover more distance
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Jan 19, 2022 19:46
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Silver Alicorn posted:I don’t know of any accessories for it but I haven’t looked very deep. ye, flicking across multiple screens feels awesome.
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Jan 19, 2022 19:48
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Expo70 posted:i think in terms of actual applied versions of this concept successfully, my favourite is the primary mfd optics on the rafale, which use special lensing so the human eye doesn't have to refocus from distant to near from reading the hud's optics in infinity focal length sighting. net result is that display is *always* used when you're reading the world as it is part of your lower periphery so you use the other two either side when engaging with bvr and any information you need during dynamic response, you do in an entirely different focal length which cuts down on eye fatigue but massively leverages spatial reasoning similarly to how hmd systems often do as an entirely new optical anchor-point. Also just quoting this from page one because this is hella clever.
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Jan 19, 2022 20:08
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MononcQc posted:Also just quoting this from page one because this is hella clever. yeah, its honestly way more advanced than most of the touchscreen cockpit metaphor we're seeing in the F35 and other 5th generation fighters. There's even a second one in the rear if its a tandem. I wish I had the source (link-rot, time, memory), but at one point they were debating whether or not to go with a CRT reflector for their HMD based on the same concept, with a micro CRT next to each cheekbone beaming a picture onto the visor so you wouldn't have the settling problem common to VR headsets, and then they wanted digitally tintable visors which could paint elements. in testing, it solved "the shaking problem" common to a lot of LCD display technologies painting glass at high AOA due to its ultra high variable refresh-rate which was supposed to be complimentary against the frequency of the shaking of the helmet measured by accelerometers or something. the reflectance of this was also then to be used in colors humans couldn't see to then make assessments on what the gaze data of the user was, which is seen as a very difficult problem again due to the tracking noise caused by vibrations in IR based trackers like your tobii 4c and stuff like that (if you don't own one, get one and play with it, its very fun to pair fire-control and inferrence tasks w/ an argmax determinator to it in your own software) the goal was basically to use the two crts to paint a picture at different focal distances, to create a sort of "differing spatial reasoning" virtual cockpit which overlaid the hud and standard mfds for data visualization. the goal was to future proof for loitering platforms (eg, flying weapon-rails) and for awacs visualization of sigint to determine engagement ranges and make informed decisions reactive based on what the awacs knows without employment instruction over radio which would gum up the chain and cause the loitering deployment method to take too long to be effective. obviously this was very expensive and the expertise to miniaturize it was nowhere to be found and it got shitcanned early on, but the fact they *considered* it and there were patents floating around and people were talking about it in optics communities in the early 2000's (I think it as like 1996 when the research was underway???) a lot of natural features of crts just completely bypass problems with vr like screen door and pixel gaps and their color output and refreshrate are crazy well suited for this task https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p12QaZUZDnM the main problem in this demo here is actually the pi just being weak as hell, and the fact he's recording -- when he's not recording its bonkers smooth the compromise they went for was to use a collmiated display to leverage the stuff they learned about spatial domain reasoning i'm sad we're not all wearing crts instead of tapping glass but advertisers would have/will still make ar into hellworld anyways i know IBM were doing something similar with freakin lasers that painted pictures on your retina bouncing it off of a pair of glasses using much the same method with the Vaunt in 2018 so maybe it might still happen and companies like DigiLens are also looking at this stuff too imo the real money will be direct display, not indirect display with something that sits on your cheekbone, doesn't have glasses, and knows how your eye works which seems doable within 20 years as the natural party trick of "smart glasses without the smart glasses" without using a waveguide so you bypass the optics problems of having a waveguide like uniformity or defects or warping entirely who knows maybe laser/crt might make conventional displays obsolete soon can you imagine a world where oled/lcd are seen as fondly as crt are? me neither. edit: aggressively f5'ing. most fun i've had online in a while. Expo70 fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 20:23
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Expo70 posted:oh wow that is cool as heck looking also i really enjoyed that movie. not to go off topic, but the people who didn't like it i think are the people it was specifically addressing and they lack the media literacy to realize they're the subject of the movie's inherent problem in its thesis. I don't think elecom makes any tenting accessories, but you could make a wedge that slots into the hole on the underside of the trackball really easily
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Jan 19, 2022 22:01
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I think there's a bunch of potential for looking at the choices of functionality in social networks and how they ends up affecting the community, even feeding back into behavior of the individuals on that community. Not really a UI/UX issue specifically but more of a tooling issue. For example the bookmark feature in SA leading to small numbers of long threads, and where lack of voting on individual posts means that influence ends up fairly proportional to volume/frequency of posts. Or Twitter where the retweet feature ended up making it the place to go for kneejerk hard-line takes on current events. Reddit's scoring system meanwhile results in the opposite - lots of milquetoast reposts that never deviate from local popular opinion, under a system that's easy to manipulate by marketers. But there's also the smaller "non-structural" stuff like the laughing emoji response being available on all Facebook posts, where it can be used as a high visibility way to discredit tragedies.
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Jan 20, 2022 01:46
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Progressive JPEG posted:I think there's a bunch of potential for looking at the choices of functionality in social networks and how they ends up affecting the community, even feeding back into behavior of the individuals on that community. Not really a UI/UX issue specifically but more of a tooling issue. yeah this is actually under human-factors rather than ux/ui stuff, which is what this thread really is at its heart. the psychology of how an interface biases community natures (eg, anonymous users are more likely to be sociopathic in their behaviour due to their lack of accountability) is a really big thing, and its often a set of weights and behaviours humans didn't naturally evolve to work with. in that sense, yeah - what's an "effective" system is not what is seen offhand early on as a "useful" system. 100% this.
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Jan 20, 2022 01:51
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Yeah the idea of an anonymous swamp where posts are judged by their ideas instead of their pedigree is an attractive one, but the response highlight feature sets up a dopamine reward loop that rewards maximum engagement, and combining that with a lack of accountability inevitably leads people to seek negative engagement since it is much easier to accomplish than positive engagement. If you wanted to deliberately design a cauldron of hatred you probably wouldn't be able to do much better than a Chan site.
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Jan 20, 2022 05:04
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Crossposting from techbubble thread cuz you guys might be interested idkPIZZA.BAT posted:still catching up to this but expo maybe the best way forwards is to get your project to a rough but demo-able state, add a little pizazz to it, and throw it up on kickstarter or pattern with an outline of what your larger vision is. tons of things flip here but if it tingles enough nerd brains you can probably get enough funding to keep your head above water or maybe even hire an artist or two maybe. I'm not sure i could take people's money and do a kickstarter on them. i don't tend to work reliably: its either a huge burst of work or weeks of just nothing trying to find the motivation to code. i'm cooling off on working on an altitude control subsection of the booster controller so the robot can automatically hover a set distance above a surface of water, or maintain a specific altitude within the physics system and some collision avoidance stuff rn i thought i'd put some thoughts to the test, and do another pass on a controller concept for the project and its nearly at a state where i can start doing clay mockups and photography before bringing the photos into illustrator, then those into cad to start making shells for the teentsy board and components. image here there's some obvious ergonomic stuff which needs solving with the analogue stick and some other stuff but i'm pretty confident this solves most of the interesting problems with controlling mecha and big 6dof machines that i care about i also really want to test a theory about control and capacitive surface conventional face/4-buttons, where the finger resting position is known by the system, doubling up the buttons, basically with a second contact stage. i'd love to track movement or velocity (position is unreasonable at this size) with a hall sensor too but i think that's pushing it. a normal controller does it just fine but this is sort of the more indulgent full fat "everything you normally don't have access to" approach that i'm going to hide away in some control bindings menu or something and just be particularly pleased with. --- edit: critique and questions welcome, rip the design a new rear end in a top hat. if you have any questions, i'm disgustingly happy to answer them. Expo70 fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 20, 2022 07:08
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Expo70 posted:Crossposting from techbubble thread cuz you guys might be interested idk It's all the same people. Yospos has like 10 active posters. Threads are separately maintained only for the benefit of the lurkers. Content leaks a lot because no one can keep track of what thread they're in.  Like if you would have just quoted a post from that thread here directly I'd have no idea.
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Jan 20, 2022 14:45
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i took HCI as my major for my master because the girls to math courses ration was appealing. ive since yet to a encounter a smugger group of fart sniffers and ivory towerers, god drat. and this was pre-iphone too, so they hadn’t had the chance to go super saian yet. welp, that’s my HCI story!
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Jan 20, 2022 19:04
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this is a good thread.
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Jan 20, 2022 19:17
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Kernel Sanders posted:i took HCI as my major for my master because the girls to math courses ration was appealing. I legitimately want to hear more about this
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Jan 20, 2022 20:08
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MononcQc posted:I legitimately want to hear more about this yeah same. I know a lot of the HCI guys are supposed to be so up their own rear end because they know what Fitt's law is and because they have no idea what hfe is so they just follow the meme of design and think they're doing good work which is just dummmmmm the best thing i saw recently that upset them was that flat interfaces make users spend more time making decisions and less time understanding the spaces due to the lower contrast which gives less data to drive recognition processes. https://www.nngroup.com/articles/flat-ui-less-attention-cause-uncertainty/
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Jan 20, 2022 23:46
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hci started off from cog sci, not as an engineering discipline. don norman was a neural net guy before he did psychology of everyday things, for example. but many of their material failures afterwards, and almost certainly their routinely dog poo poo study design, can be chalked up to their innumeracy as a field on the other hand, hfe with roots in engineering proper is plagued by inability at sales leading to obscurity as a field, which is also why the more hfe-style jobs are way shittier than hci jobs in most ways. i do not, after some postin, think expo here is an exception bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jan 20, 2022 |
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Jan 20, 2022 23:50
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HCI has its roots in time & motion studies and jesus christ if you ever wanted to see what hell looks like take a look at the output of some of those studies commissioned for industry
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Jan 21, 2022 00:03
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rotor posted:HCI has its roots in time & motion studies and jesus christ if you ever wanted to see what hell looks like take a look at the output of some of those studies commissioned for industry or, you know, turn off your monitor
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Jan 21, 2022 00:03
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rotor posted:HCI has its roots in time & motion studies and jesus christ if you ever wanted to see what hell looks like take a look at the output of some of those studies commissioned for industry there's the group of peeps who do it and there's the logical consequents of the subject at hand: we are really talkin about the group of peeps who do it, an academic eternal fistfight. SIGCHI, for example, split off from the SIG for "Behavioral Computing" in the 80s, so these peeps are not direct descendants of the peeps who were doing time and motion studies. but the HFES, who do the main journal in hfe nowadays, started off in WW2 doin em time and motion studies and all the pilot poo poo. office of naval research was behind it all, but hci stuff was way more indirect: hfe grants were for like, "figure out em pilot seats" but the grants for the peeps who were gonna be hci peeps were like, "basic research on neurons", "basic research on perceptive cognitive processes" until they split off the SIG bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 00:06
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bob dobbs is dead posted:there's the group of peeps who do it and there's the logical consequents of the subject at hand: we are really talkin about the group of peeps who do it, an academic eternal fistfight. SIGCHI, for example, split off from the SIG for "Behavioral Computing" in the 80s, so these peeps are not direct descendants of the peeps who were doing time and motion studies. but the HFES, who do the main journal in hfe nowadays, started off in WW2 doin em time and motion studies i mean i understand thats what you're talking about, yes
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Jan 21, 2022 00:08
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bob dobbs is dead posted:there's the group of peeps who do it and there's the logical consequents of the subject at hand: we are really talkin about the group of peeps who do it, an academic eternal fistfight. SIGCHI, for example, split off from the SIG for "Behavioral Computing" in the 80s, so these peeps are not direct descendants of the peeps who were doing time and motion studies. but the HFES, who do the main journal in hfe nowadays, started off in WW2 doin em time and motion studies and all the pilot poo poo. you know they did eventually figure out em pilot seats so well that implementing the changes would be questionable because they were worried it would create maintenance problems. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a235181.pdf  this is before we get into absurd poo poo like that maniac Doctor R. Flanagan Gray in the 50's who filled an iron maiden with water and got himself to 31Gs laughing like a maniac who was confident it could go as high as 50G with refinement. https://www.roadsideamerica.com/blog/centrifuge-spinmaster/ that said he was a freakish specimen who could hold his breath for seven goddamn minutes so idk i want research done into subvocalization already. makes me so mad that nobody is looking into it with any meaningful amount of money anymore. pilots should be breathing, not talking. cockpit fulla fluid literally isn't a thing cuz talking while doing that is hard and its a pain in the rear end to suit up and subvo fixes one of those problems. Expo70 fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 00:32
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Don Norman owns
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Jan 21, 2022 02:40
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I like Don Norman very much. Also I like the whole "The best interface is no interface" by Golden Krishna and the general push to avoid just slapping a loving screen onto everything, though the book itself is a bit long (even if the overall book is short, it feels long) for the thesis and the amount of backing it gives it. Reading it is still enough to still make me mad every time I see a touchscreen onto poo poo I don't care about. Like this one: https://twitter.com/lukeweston/status/1474666354976329728
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Jan 21, 2022 02:55
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i use a kensington expert trackball and it's good
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Jan 21, 2022 03:07
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MononcQc posted:I like Don Norman very much. one thing that does super annoy me is the way i'm forced to use a phone app if i want to do anything now. i can't just have a little box on the wall that tells my smart bulbs what to do, i have to take out my phone, unlock it, remember the app's name, find the app, open the app, wait for the app to load, remember the bulb's name, pick the bulb, input the settings, wait two or three times for the lag cycle, then i can turn the phone off. vs getting off my rear end, walking to a box on the wall and fiddling with dials, then going back to my chair. yeah, no, i hate iot
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Jan 21, 2022 03:09
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not even the venture capitalists like iot, most of them havent funded anything hardware for a decade now it's large enterprise industrial dealios and formerly controls eng people who wanna get paid like webdev
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Jan 21, 2022 03:12
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bob dobbs is dead posted:not even the venture capitalists like iot, most of them havent funded anything hardware for a decade now its so drat bad. it needs standardizing and it needs better security (which i imagine in future you're going to ruin).
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Jan 21, 2022 03:15
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i touch a chart dealio, what do you mean in gonna ruin iot security
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Jan 21, 2022 03:16
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bob dobbs is dead posted:i touch a chart dealio, what do you mean in gonna ruin iot security nm i keep thinking you're the quantummy person from the other thread anyway weird thought i love the idea of iot being ancient and there being bots online in the 2030's or 40's which sit looking for iot with crap protection just triggering random behaviors in them and some new-tube musician or something using the raw data of all these bots fiddling with random ancient iot devices after some massive security change to make procedurally generated music or to use it as a source of randomness for something entertaining in a video. the future of super niche obscure videos of people messing w/ tech for entertainment is going to be so weird
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Jan 21, 2022 03:18
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no, i do the quantum poo poo but its been nonconstructive proof for a quarter or so cuz theres an issue in diagonalizing
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Jan 21, 2022 03:23
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Expo70 posted:one thing that does super annoy me is the way i'm forced to use a phone app if i want to do anything now. i can't just have a little box on the wall that tells my smart bulbs what to do, i have to take out my phone, unlock it, remember the app's name, find the app, open the app, wait for the app to load, remember the bulb's name, pick the bulb, input the settings, wait two or three times for the lag cycle, then i can turn the phone off. wtf why don't you just have normal lights?
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Jan 21, 2022 03:25
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you can even get The Clapper if ur too lazy to get up
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Jan 21, 2022 03:25
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