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StrangersInTheNight
Dec 31, 2007
ABSOLUTE FUCKING GUDGEON

Fiddler on the Reef posted:

I'm not saying anyone's being inauthentic, just as I wouldn't accuse a deeply religious person of being inauthentic. I just take issue with the inherent implication that people who don't id as NB necessarily id as either a male or female gender (both of which cannot be concretely defined outside sexism). Like I don't think gender identity is actually a thing for the vast majority of people. The characterization of it as some unconscious state that exists in everyone, is definitely there, but can only be detected when it causes someone distress seems to be pure mysticism.

We're not gonna get anywhere here since we're coming at this from two completely different axiomatic frameworks (you believe in an innate and universal gender identity, while I do not)...

uh, ok. there's tons of research by people much smarter than you on how gender is a thing that, like, exists socially across various cultures. there's also people from different places who have put a lot of effort into discussing how gender varies for their culture. gender is a role and is perspective- and society-based. it exists for sure, but if your body and gender fit it often goes unnoticed. also if you're not taught any critical thinking skills about gender.

this is like not believing in viral methodology bc you can't see them with your eyeballs or touch them with your fingers, but we do live in TYOOL2022 during a COVID epidemic so I guess I shouldn't be that surprised

(actually it's just your usual blindness of privilege from not experiencing a thing being mistaken for a thing not existing but yeeeeah)

StrangersInTheNight fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Feb 4, 2022

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StrangersInTheNight
Dec 31, 2007
ABSOLUTE FUCKING GUDGEON
'look i'm not saying you're being inauthentic, i'm just saying money doesn't actually exist' is pretty much the same argument and like yeah sure at it's core it doesn't sure i guess but also we're all intensely socially bound by it so try arguing to a poor person that money doesn't exist/matter and see how far you get

queer theory is essentially both recognizing that gender exists but also that it can be broken, destroyed, or even done away with. so if your position is gender shouldn't exist, well yeah then sure that would be great and is a discussion many folks are having. but it's a conversation being had because it does exist, as sure as the day is long, and it matters very much to many people.

StrangersInTheNight fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Feb 4, 2022

syntaxfunction
Oct 27, 2010
Just mentally replace it with "I don't see colour, man, that's all I'm saying" and you're off to the races.

staberind
Feb 20, 2008

but i dont wanna be a spaceship
Fun Shoe

Nikumatic posted:

lol it was the best when one of those open world survival games (rust?) just permanently assigned a race and gender to peoples steam ID at random and all the chuds flipped the gently caress out about it

i mean that’s literally how life works but we can all agree that it would be better if life also had an early access period and after like fifteen years everything just scrambled

Have you somehow forgotten the insanity that was chuds reaction to Cyberpunk 2077's gender choice via voice?

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

My guiding Moonlight...



Fiddler on the Reef posted:

what does it feel like to feel like a man?

Perpetual horniness that's impossible to turn off; misery.

Sweaty IT Nerd
Jul 13, 2007

StrangersInTheNight posted:

(actually it's just your usual blindness of privilege from not experiencing a thing being mistaken for a thing not existing but yeeeeah)

Disco Pope
Dec 6, 2004

Top Class!
My brain exploded in school when a teacher was like "hey, you get gay men are attracted to men, right? So why would liking effeminate things be gay?"

I mean, I don't think that's entirely correct but it made a class of 14yr olds go "whoaaa" about gender expression and identity.

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008

Fiddler on the Reef posted:

what does it feel like to feel like a man? same for woman? and how are they different?

Basically this on repeat in your brain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twQlpFrm5iM

Outrail
Jan 4, 2009

www.sapphicrobotica.com
:roboluv: :love: :roboluv:

sigher posted:

Perpetual horniness that's impossible to turn off; misery.

The misery is even when you're not horny you're supposed to feel horny so there's a feeling of inadequacy which creates a feedback loop so you overcompensate by acting like an Ur stereotype and ohhhh that's what I'm an rear end in a top hat. Society made my dick make me a dick.

mkvltra
Nov 1, 2020

Archer666 posted:

Basically this on repeat in your brain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twQlpFrm5iM

Is this some kind of gay thing?

Spazzle
Jul 5, 2003

mkvltra posted:

Is this some kind of gay thing?

No, its just European. Listen to the accents.

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

staberind posted:

I'm an old goff.
Wearing makeup and jamming around in lace, leather and fun frocks is like, second nature, I've got to 50 and toned it down a little, although, to my regret it did take me a few months to start taking peoples pronouns seriously,
this is weird looking back because while about half of the old crowd I used to hang out with were Gay/Bi/w/ever, after a decade or so, some of them had transitioned as MtoF. On an idividual level its easy to refer to and think of them as their chosen gender, pronouns and all, but some rando on the internet demanding I refer to them as x/y just meant I stopped talking to or referring to them.

(E: "chosen gender" not meaning "the gender they chose", thats idiot nonsense, I mean their pronouns after transition.)

your lucky, a LOT of my old goth friends, who were all gay/bi or very much in favor of gay/bi people and leftism in general, about 10 years ago they turned 30/40 and became right wing assholes...

it's REALLY depressing!

Ocean Book
Sep 27, 2010

:yum: - hi

Archer666 posted:

Oh, it's that simple. I kinda blew by that and went directly into the "Why does that particular answer feel the most correct?" type of questions.

well i agree that if you throw out the “birth sex causes gender identity” hypothesis, then determining a causation for gender identity is very difficult. but that doesn’t mean gender identity is vague in and of itself. like a lot of human things, it’s easy to experience and hard to explain.

personally, i believe gender identity is just a non-rational intuitive thing. on the level of individual people, determining a cause for gender identity isn’t particularly useful or fruitful.

je1 healthcare
Sep 29, 2015

les enfants Terrific! posted:

I don't understand it nor do I feel it ergo it does not exist thank you and goodnight

really though, do you think a cis man will just not care if people started treating him like he was a woman? Or a cis woman, if she was referred to as if she were a man? That's what I mean by "you don't feel it unless something's up," if your gender starts being undermined you're going to realize you're not comfortable with that, because you are/aren't a man/woman, drat it

I've been mistaken as a girl a few times back in middle-school when I had long hair. I found it to be more comical, rather than aggravating, because in each case they made a genuine mistake because I looked like a girl when turned away. But in each case they corrected themselves without me demanding it, because they were attempting to refer to my sex rather than my appearance or behavior. It'd be another thing if it was intended as an insult though

So, I assume that's what it means to live without gender dysphoria, the absence of trauma or stress when gendered or misgendered by others. The best way I can think to put myself in the shoes of someone with gender dysphoria is to imagine if the entire world magically expected me to wear a dress from now on. It would be a real shift, but I can't imagine being suicidal over it because my current wardrobe already exists to appease societal expectations rather than to serve as a form of self-expression.

But the types of cis men or women who were suicidal or self-harming over internalized fears of not living up to a gender role never struck me as examples of "normal" or healthy functioning.

SulfurMonoxideCute
Feb 9, 2008

I was under direct orders not to die
🐵❌💀

precision posted:

your lucky, a LOT of my old goth friends, who were all gay/bi or very much in favor of gay/bi people and leftism in general, about 10 years ago they turned 30/40 and became right wing assholes...

it's REALLY depressing!

Same thing here, except in my city in the 2000s a lot of them were dressing in black buttondowns with their pants tucked into their army surplus jackboots and collecting ww2 paraphernalia which the rest of us at the time thought "nazi fanboys are weird oh well this song is awesome gonna go dance", and then later on they became actual unironic nazis.

Ocean Book
Sep 27, 2010

:yum: - hi

je1 healthcare posted:

So, I assume that's what it means to live without gender dysphoria, the absence of trauma or stress when gendered or misgendered by others. The best way I can think to put myself in the shoes of someone with gender dysphoria is to imagine if the entire world magically expected me to wear a dress from now on. It would be a real shift, but I can't imagine being suicidal over it because my current wardrobe already exists to appease societal expectations rather than to serve as a form of self-expression.

this is a really minimizing view of gender dysphoria. if you are cis it’s genuinely hard to get it.

being misgendered doesn’t just mean someone used a bad word and it made you sad. it means you were miscategorized. gendering pervades our social lives. a constant string of very small miscategorizations in every single social interaction you have, starting in childhood and compounding year over year. who approaches you to be friends? what do your parents teach you? what do your friends approve of you for? what do romantic partners expect from you? ultimately this means that if you just go along with it, you end up with a life you weren’t meant to live. every social interaction is just miscalibrated for who you are meant to be.

gender dysphoria is connected to suicide because people tend to commit suicide when they realize the life they were meant to live is impossible. this happens after divorce, job loss, going to prison, stuff like that. in the case of gender dysphoria, it means when you realize your supposed to live the life of a man or a woman, and yet it’s impossible.

if you haven’t experienced gender dysphoria or transitioned, you probably don’t know how existentially painful it is to be locked out of your gender. maybe you think ‘well can’t you just be a feminine man, or a butch woman?’ but butch women live very different lives than men, and. feminine men live very different lives than women. just an unceasing string of small differences that have become, for a person with dysphoria, acutely painful. over and over and over and over.

interactions between men, between women, between men and women, are not identical. ive lived on both ends. the differences are extremely small but very perceptible. i can’t tell you why it’s better, why i’m meant to be one gender or the other. it’s just how it is. my friendships, at work, my romantic relationships, just being out and about, the world reacts to me intuitively now matches in a way it never did before. and i can’t tel you why that difference is so important, was worth time money, medical intervention, social upheaval. it just was. that’s dysphoria for you

je1 healthcare
Sep 29, 2015

Ocean Book posted:

this is a really minimizing view of gender dysphoria. if you are cis it’s genuinely hard to get it.

being misgendered doesn’t just mean someone used a bad word and it made you sad. it means you were miscategorized. gendering pervades our social lives. a constant string of very small miscategorizations in every single social interaction you have, starting in childhood and compounding year over year. who approaches you to be friends? what do your parents teach you? what do your friends approve of you for? what do romantic partners expect from you? ultimately this means that if you just go along with it, you end up with a life you weren’t meant to live. every social interaction is just miscalibrated for who you are meant to be.

gender dysphoria is connected to suicide because people tend to commit suicide when they realize the life they were meant to live is impossible. this happens after divorce, job loss, going to prison, stuff like that. in the case of gender dysphoria, it means when you realize your supposed to live the life of a man or a woman, and yet it’s impossible.

if you haven’t experienced gender dysphoria or transitioned, you probably don’t know how existentially painful it is to be locked out of your gender. maybe you think ‘well can’t you just be a feminine man, or a butch woman?’ but butch women live very different lives than men, and. feminine men live very different lives than women. just an unceasing string of small differences that have become, for a person with dysphoria, acutely painful. over and over and over and over.

interactions between men, between women, between men and women, are not identical. ive lived on both ends. the differences are extremely small but very perceptible. i can’t tell you why it’s better, why i’m meant to be one gender or the other. it’s just how it is. my friendships, at work, my romantic relationships, just being out and about, the world reacts to me intuitively now matches in a way it never did before. and i can’t tel you why that difference is so important, was worth time money, medical intervention, social upheaval. it just was. that’s dysphoria for you

Of course, my view is limited. And I'm trying my hardest to understand, so I appreciate your input. My description of misgendering was based on what other people had told me about their experiences of going into a multi-day spiral of depression or mental health crisis in response to being misgendered to deadnamed in public, but I suppose not everyone reacts that way.

I have my own clinical experiences with body dysphoria that's also linked to ASD, which I think might overlap with gender dysphoric experiences, but I'm not sure. This thread isn't about me anyway

Bro Dad
Mar 26, 2010


I'm INTJ, OP.

Outrail
Jan 4, 2009

www.sapphicrobotica.com
:roboluv: :love: :roboluv:
I'm ignorant and had to look up what deadnaming is.

Do trans with non-gendered names like Sam/Alex/Quinn tend to pick a new name or just stick with it?

kntfkr
Feb 11, 2019

GOOSE FUCKER

Bro Dad posted:

I'm INTJ, OP.

IN The Juice

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013



Outrail posted:

I'm ignorant and had to look up what deadnaming is.

Do trans with non-gendered names like Sam/Alex/Quinn tend to pick a new name or just stick with it?

That is an individual thing and I don't think it can be generalized that much.

ChunTheUnavoidable
Sep 27, 2021

Thanks to whoever recommended Gnosia this game is awesome

Grape
Nov 16, 2017

Happily shilling for China!

sigher posted:

Perpetual horniness that's impossible to turn off; misery.

Nope.


Outrail posted:

The misery is even when you're not horny you're supposed to feel horny so there's a feeling of inadequacy which creates a feedback loop so you overcompensate by acting like an Ur stereotype and ohhhh that's what I'm an rear end in a top hat. Society made my dick make me a dick.

Yup.

Improbable Lobster
Jan 6, 2012

What is the Matrix 🌐? We just don't know 😎.


Buglord
humans are very gay animals

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

ChunTheUnavoidable posted:

Thanks to whoever recommended Gnosia this game is awesome

yeah it really is i'm gonna play some more today

GNOSIA SPOILERS

i'm at the point where i can set the parameters for the "game" myself. do i just keep loving around and wait for important stuff to happen?

roomtone
Jul 1, 2021
Probation
Can't post for 18 hours!

Outrail posted:

The misery is even when you're not horny you're supposed to feel horny so there's a feeling of inadequacy which creates a feedback loop so you overcompensate by acting like an Ur stereotype and ohhhh that's what I'm an rear end in a top hat. Society made my dick make me a dick.

what situations are you describing? because this is alien to me

je1 healthcare
Sep 29, 2015

roomtone posted:

what situations are you describing? because this is alien to me

The media and entertainment industry portrays men as horny idiots because it's comical, and also because they want to sell them sex (or use sex to sell other products). Teenage and college-aged males do the same thing by encouraging each other to view women as sex objects as a form of machismo. So in past decades, you could be called inadequate, impotent, or "gay" if you prioritized any sort of romantic relationship that didn't immediately involve sex. Even close relationships between heterosexual men became somewhat stigmatized in western cultures, as the word "love" came to refer almost exclusively to romance or sex

So, it's pretty easy to either be bullied into thinking that you're less of a man for not wanting to gently caress 24/7. Even without bullying, one could establish a rigid definition of gender in one's own head by recognizing patterns and taking lessons from the media, or by relying on comedians for tips on how society works, or by being overly-sensitive to perceived criticism or rejection while writing off every male in your community that doesn't fit that definition.

At least, this was the case for me, as I felt the same way up until I was about 16. I can't speak for Outrail

kntfkr
Feb 11, 2019

GOOSE FUCKER
you're not a dish, you're a man

Rockman Reserve
Oct 2, 2007

"Carbons? Purge? What are you talking about?!"

precision posted:

yeah it really is i'm gonna play some more today

GNOSIA SPOILERS

i'm at the point where i can set the parameters for the "game" myself. do i just keep loving around and wait for important stuff to happen?

yeah pretty much, i don't recall if it unlocks right away but there's an "event search" button when you can set the parameters that will kinda bum rush you through the remaining critical scenes

if you don't you'll definitely end up running into most/all of them anyway but it's nice to have the option there to do it either way

ChunTheUnavoidable
Sep 27, 2021

precision posted:

yeah it really is i'm gonna play some more today

GNOSIA SPOILERS

i'm at the point where i can set the parameters for the "game" myself. do i just keep loving around and wait for important stuff to happen?


Yeah I just kept on going and the story continues to unfold. I usually just do the default and Random though. SPOILER: I just got to the Raqio/SQ shower scene lol

Rockman Reserve
Oct 2, 2007

"Carbons? Purge? What are you talking about?!"

ChunTheUnavoidable posted:

Yeah I just kept on going and the story continues to unfold. I usually just do the default and Random though. SPOILER: I just got to the Raqio/SQ shower scene lol

SQ is so hilariously dumb and awful

ChunTheUnavoidable
Sep 27, 2021

when you agree to ally with SQ and she immediately throws you to the wolves

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precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

Rockman Reserve posted:

SQ is so hilariously dumb and awful

SQ and Raqio are my perfect dumb friends :haw:

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