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I was told there might be interest in this, so here. thought about calling this "PYF nuke thing" but "favorite" is a weird word to use around nuclear bombs and accidents. but like that kind of vibe. (also I'm not an expert, so if you know better than me on things correct me) I mentioned SL-1 in the tiktok thread. it was an experimental reactor, it's the only US reactor incident that killed anyone "instantly" rather than "eventually," and was bad enough that they threw out the entire reactor design. they shut it down for Christmas in 1960, since they weren't running any experiments over the holidays, and came back in january to turn it back on. part of turning it back on meant pulling out the central control rod "a few inches" so it could be reconnected to the mechanical bits. the reactor operator pulled it out... more than a few inches. SL-1 had an intended output of 3 megawatts. in maaaaaybe five or ten milliseconds, it jumped up to 20 gigawatts, almost 7000 times too high. the fuel immediately melted down and caused a steam explosion, which blasted the remaining un-steamed water into the top of the reactor so hard that the reactor jumped nine feet straight up and, unfortunately, the plugs in the reactor's shield got ejected at about 60 mph. one of the three guys who died here was going to die no matter what happened, but what did happen is that because of where he was standing, one of those plugs went 60 mph into his body, entering through the groin and popping out his shoulder. And between the 60 mph ejection and the reactor giving it a nine-foot head start, the plug got stuck in the ceiling. while still stuck in him. took them five days to figure out how to get his body down, and that process was about as ugly as getting stuck up there had probably been. Something that comes up a lot in early nuke studies is that people thought they totally knew what the gently caress was going on and they definitely didn't. did you see Chernobyl? know how they're like "our reactors are safe, something else must have happened" for half the show? same here. the dosimeters said there was a nuclear event of some kind, and the scientists were like "impossible, this is a safe reactor, there must have been a chemical explosion that released some fuel!" right up until they got the bodies out and the dude's watch was radioactive now. then it was a scramble to figure out how something could have gone wrong. the official explanation, supported by both investigation and simulations, was the reasonable idea that the control rod got stuck, the reactor operator pulled on it hard to unstick it, and that meant that once it was unstuck it came out too far. the people who still believed an accident was impossible decided that the reactor operator's wife had called him just beforehand and told him she wanted a divorce, and also he was jealous of the guy who got stuck in the ceiling for getting promoted ahead of him, so he intentionally pulled the rod out too far in the most extra murder-suicide ever. Regardless of why he pulled it out too far, the big common sense outcome here was that a smart new rule was put in place for all future US reactors: if any one single control rod, no matter how important, gets pulled out too far or even completely withdrawn, the reactor must not explode.
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Feb 13, 2022 06:38
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your nuclear hardware is a piece of poo poo.
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Feb 13, 2022 06:51
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taepodong is a type of north korean nuke missile
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Feb 13, 2022 06:59
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that poo poo is insane nuclear intrigues and scares the poo poo out of me. it’s a poison in a way nothing else is. it’s amazing because basically everything on earth is the electromagnetic force and it’s all in gravity, but nuclear stuff is a window into other forces thanks for making the thread
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Feb 13, 2022 08:04
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the elephant's foot is the scariest thing in the world to me and i have nightmares about the chernobyl tv show roof scene that i only saw 90 seconds of
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Feb 13, 2022 08:27
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disaster pastor posted:I was told there might be interest in this, so here. thought about calling this "PYF nuke thing" but "favorite" is a weird word to use around nuclear bombs and accidents. but like that kind of vibe. (also I'm not an expert, so if you know better than me on things correct me)
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Feb 13, 2022 08:58
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I was told that the Chernobyl design was optimized to enrich plutonium instead of produce power, is that accurate?
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Feb 13, 2022 09:09
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as in it was primarily a weapons plant that produced power as a happy side product
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Feb 13, 2022 09:10
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anyway my dad worked at Rocky Flats most of his life keeping you ungrateful shitheads safe from the communist menace and told me a lot of stuff but dad was also known to tell a tall tale or two so it can be hard to separate fact from fiction
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Feb 13, 2022 09:11
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just share because it’s gonna be interesting regardless
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Feb 13, 2022 09:50
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cool thread ty for making it. what would you say are the top 3 misunderstood things about nuclear that are also kind of tough to explain. i'll take my answer on the air
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Feb 13, 2022 14:28
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oh, yeah, I meant to say: other people should post stuff, too! this isn't a monologueLady Radia posted:wait, just to clarify: the other two guys in the room also got slammed? to be clear, yes, all three guys died. only the one got pinned to the ceiling like a butterfly exhibit, though. of the other two, one died instantly as well, one was unconscious but technically alive when found and died shortly after. their cause of death was general "being in the same room as a massive nuclear-fueled explosion," not specific "a piece of our drat reactor spiked me to the roof during that massive nuclear-fueled explosion," so they don't get remembered as much. rotor posted:I was told that the Chernobyl design was optimized to enrich plutonium instead of produce power, is that accurate? I'm not the expert but my understanding is "originally yes but really no." in the initial design they considered a dual-function reactor also used to enrich plutonium, but it wasn't a good plan and everyone gave up on it early on, well before the design was finalized. as a result of having the idea, though, there are things that did make it into the RBMK design that are there because they would have been part of the plutonium plan, like the fact that the fuel can be removed and replaced without powering the reactor down. rotor posted:anyway my dad worked at Rocky Flats most of his life keeping you ungrateful shitheads safe from the communist menace and told me a lot of stuff but dad was also known to tell a tall tale or two so it can be hard to separate fact from fiction  Kenny Logins posted:cool thread ty for making it. what would you say are the top 3 misunderstood things about nuclear that are also kind of tough to explain. i'll take my answer on the air this is a good question and I have to run out, I'll think about it and get back to you. probably be some Chernobyl stuff in there though
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Feb 13, 2022 14:31
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disaster pastor posted:...the plugs in the reactor's shield got ejected at about 60 mph. one of the three guys who died here was going to die no matter what happened, but what did happen is that because of where he was standing, one of those plugs went 60 mph into his body, entering through the groin and popping out his shoulder. And between the 60 mph ejection and the reactor giving it a nine-foot head start, the plug got stuck in the ceiling. while still stuck in him. took them five days to figure out how to get his body down, and that process was about as ugly as getting stuck up there had probably been.
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Feb 13, 2022 14:33
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disaster pastor posted:this is a good question and I have to run out, I'll think about it and get back to you. probably be some Chernobyl stuff in there though
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Feb 13, 2022 14:35
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https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1220/ML12205A469.pdf I'm reading this and it's a lot of bad process engineering
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Feb 13, 2022 14:51
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you can't just trust people will do things right, you have to make sure they can't do them wrong
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Feb 13, 2022 14:54
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Silver Alicorn posted:you can't just trust people will do things right, you have to make sure they can't do them wrong
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Feb 13, 2022 14:58
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3 workers in a russian plant were supposed to drain a large vessel of uranyl nitrate into 6 liter bottles, they got impatient halfway through and decided to unbolt the vessel and pour it out (into what is unclear). as they were setting it down on the floor there was a bright flash, they all died 5 days later and a 4th worker in the room got cataracts and went blind
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Feb 13, 2022 15:10
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the vessel went critical because the 3 workers and the concrete wall were reflecting neutrons back into it. the stuff basically got nervous because people were crowding it out
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Feb 13, 2022 15:12
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this is a cool thread and it really puts my own work gently caress ups into perspective
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Feb 13, 2022 15:16
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Kenny Logins posted:it's more of a prompt for you to do what you evidently do well instead of just looking at wikipedia. awww, thank you! so I thought about it and here are the top 3 misunderstandings in my opinion today: 1) the meaning of critical. this is actually where this discussion started in the tiktok thread, because it's easy to misunderstand, because basically every movie, book and TV show gets it wrong. "the reactor's going critical now!" "we have ten minutes before the fuel reaches criticality!" good! if your reactor is critical, it's working. critical just means that each fission event causes at least one other fission event; that is, you have the chain reaction you need for the reactor to sustain itself. supercritical means the reaction is accelerating, which might be bad if you don't want it to, but also is normal; when power demands go up, the reactor goes supercritical so its output also goes up. prompt critical is the bad one all these movies and shows think "critical" is, where the reaction is genuinely too fast for human or computer control, but it's never something that "is happening." if your poo poo goes prompt critical, the bad stuff has happened before you had a chance to notice it. SL-1 in the OP went prompt critical, nuclear weapons go prompt critical. 2) nuclear reactors and nuclear bombs are very different things. you can't turn one into the other even if you want to, let alone accidentally, because they don't use the same fuel. nuclear weapons are intentionally designed to explode catastrophically, nuclear reactors are intentionally designed to never, ever do that. when things go bad in a reactor, it's a huge, terrible problem, but it's still orders of magnitude less huge than detonating a hydrogen bomb. meltdowns are not explosions (you'd think the name would give it away to people) and though they can cause explosions and spread nuclear fuel and ruin everyone's day, it's not equivalent to a nuclear weapon going off. Chernobyl was not an impromptu nuke, it was a steam explosion caused by an overheated core, and it only had the widespread effects it had because that explosion put a giant hole in the building that let a whole lot of radioactive stuff out. like Chernobyl, SL-1 didn't have a proper containment structure, but because the explosion wasn't big enough to open the building up, the widespread effects were almost nil. 3) there's an assumption that people who work around nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons are the best of the best of the best, always working their hardest, unfailingly responsible and perfectly attentive. this simply isn't true. any job is much like any other once you get used to it, and there are certainly people who have slacked, been lazy, been unsafe, pinched pennies, etc. often it was just an attitude of "yeah, it could happen, but it probably won't, so why worry?" the RBMK control rod flaws were known in advance, but Chernobyl happened anyway because people were just like "ah, these only matter under specific circumstances that'll probably never happen." SL-1? "why would anyone pull the control rod out too far? they know they're not supposed to!" the Brits allegedly had a nuke armed in flight because the cookie they ate with their tea could explode at high altitudes, and one day one exploded and caused a short circuit in the "should we arm the nukes?" part of the computer. and US history alone is full of trigger-happy commentators, generals and even presidents who just don't understand why using nukes would be that bad! any stupid issue you could have seen in IT, you could probably also see in nuclear history.
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Feb 13, 2022 18:59
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any fun stories about the software/automation for nuclear reactors? always fun to read about stuff like that
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Feb 13, 2022 20:17
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Selklubber posted:any fun stories about the software/automation for nuclear reactors? always fun to read about stuff like that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNLQ-O-Qx3Y
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Feb 13, 2022 20:25
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a+ thread and op, op i'm utterly fascinated by nuclear stuff and generally just a big fission fan two things that i've always enjoyed reading and learning about in terms of weird nuclear poo poo. 1.) tsar bomba, Царь-бо́мба most of you are probably familiar with this  the most powerful fusion weapon (or weapon, or explosion of any kind humanity has ever seen) ever tested (presumably be created, but this is impossible to know). in its original form it was designed to be 100 megatons. the actual weapon topped out at "only" 50 megatons or so (roughly equivalent to 1700 times the energy released by both of the bombs used in japan, or 10 times the energy of all other weapons and explosives used in world war ii), because the weapons designers left out the U238 fusion tamper to reduce fallout. scientists working on the project suggest that the design could be increased to a theoretical yield of at least a gigaton. the bomb itself, weighing 27 metric tonnes, was delivered in an aircraft (accompanied by a second research plane) specially designed for the purpose. it had several interesting features added to give the people in the planes a fighting chance of escape, including special reflective paint to minimize heat damage. bomb bay doors and fuselage fuel tanks were removed to make room. the bomb was deployed via an 800kg parachute, designed to slow the descent sufficiently to allow the planes to get far enough away - and they were only expected to have a fifty percent chance of survival. the bomb was detonated in late '61 in the russian arctic on an island in the barents sea. it was expected that the fireball would actually touch the ground despite detonating high in the air, but the shock wave from the explosion actually bounced off of the ground and pushed the fireball up. the fireball itself was a rough sphere measuring 8 kilometres in diameter:  the mushroom cloud itself reached 67 kilometres high, well into the mesosphere.  here's a great retelling from one of the cameramen: some russian dude posted:The clouds beneath the aircraft and in the distance were lit up by the powerful flash. The sea of light spread under the hatch and even clouds began to glow and became transparent. At that moment, our aircraft emerged from between two cloud layers and down below in the gap a huge bright orange ball was emerging. The ball was powerful and arrogant like Jupiter. Slowly and silently it crept upwards...Having broken through the thick layer of clouds it kept growing. It seemed to suck the whole Earth into it. The spectacle was fantastic, unreal, supernatural.” the seismic wave induced by the detonation circled the earth three times. the pressure wave in the atmosphere was recorded three separate times in new zealand. windows were shattered 800 kiliometres from the bomb's detonation. atmospheric ionization interfered with radio comms for hundreds of kilometres for most of an hour. despite all this, the high fusion:fission ratio meant that just a couple of hours later, scientists were at the bomb site and there wasn't sufficient radiation to prove dangerous. russia declassified information and footage from the project, which is totally awesome and available on youtube. it's obviously all in russian but the english subtitles are excellent and give an overview of the development from getting the bomb to the plane on a special-built railcar to its detonation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbC7BxXtOlo 2.) the demon core  (this picture is a recreation with a plutonium sphere surrounded by tungsten carbide) this project was responsible for a number of criticality incidents during the development of the american nuclear weapons programs as well as its first deaths. the first incident occurred when a lab assistant managed to drop a tungsten carbide brice ontop of a plutonium-gallium sphere; the subsequent release of radiation, combined with the gamma radiation received during disassembly, killed the 24-year old tech 25 days later. the second one, which always sticks in my mind for how ridiculous it is, involved a manitoban physicist by the name of louis slotin. slotin was actually a colleague of the man who died in the original accident. in this incident, slotin had encased the sphere inside of two 9-inch hemispheres made of beryllium, used because it reflects neutrons. as long as the two beryllium cups were kept apart, the device would remain subcritical thanks to neutron escape. the top cup had a thumbhole like a bowling ball for gripping with one's hand. the shims separating the two hemispheres had been removed, and slotin was keeping them separated using a standard screwdriver held in his right hand while he lifted the top hemisphere with his left. naturally, the screwdriver slipped. this caused the neutrons to be reflected back into the core which immediately went prompt critical as a result; each neutron released was able to knock out others, leading the reaction to be more than self-sustaining. slotin immediately tasted sour and felt his hand burning. he and the other several scientists in the room all noticed the air glowing blue as it was ionized.  slotin immediately jerked the top half of the shell off and dropped it to the floor, ending the reaction. he had already sustained a lethal dose of neutron radiation. nobody was wearing dosimetry badges at the time; they were all locked away. thus there is no record of how much radiation the scientists were subjected to, but estimates for slotin are thought to be around 900rem, nearly double a lethal dose. everyone involved was treated and released from the hospital four days later, though slotin deteriorated rapidly after this and died just nine days after the incident. others in the room suffered variably from acute radiation poisoning, and though none died immediately in the after math, some developed conditions later in life that probably had their start in that room. mediaphage fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 13, 2022 20:47
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mediaphage posted:others in the room suffered variably from acute radiation poisoning, and though none died immediately in the after math, some developed conditions later in life that probably had their start in that room.
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Feb 13, 2022 21:03
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Kenny Logins posted:the stochastic nature of certain levels of radiation poisoning is one of the scariest things about it. some people get very lucky and some absolutely do not imo a nontrivial part of that has been a relative lack of understanding
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Feb 13, 2022 21:29
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Marie Curie didn't die of her experiments with radium, she died from performing radiography unprotected in WW1
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Feb 13, 2022 21:31
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Just went past on my blog feed poor monké, killed by men who didn't have a clue and were just loving around trying poo poo to figure it out.
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Feb 13, 2022 22:05
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NoneMoreNegative posted:Just went past on my blog feed wish we'd improved in the intervening half century
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Feb 13, 2022 22:10
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thankyou. I read every word this shits so interesting and also terrifying. who the hell would line up to work on this stuff which is so dangerous in a way nothing else is is enrichment of radioactive elements a process of taking a lot of mildly radioactive isotopes and ending up with a small amount of the correct isotope and loads of useless isotopes ? i’m sure the process is complex
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Feb 14, 2022 00:25
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echinopsis posted:is enrichment of radioactive elements a process of taking a lot of mildly radioactive isotopes and ending up with a small amount of the correct isotope and loads of useless isotopes ? i’m sure the process is complex looks like it’s a process of separating out the small quantities of the right isotopes. I thought there would be a process where you somehow managed to shift neutrons around but no
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Feb 14, 2022 00:33
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Selklubber posted:any fun stories about the software/automation for nuclear reactors? always fun to read about stuff like that I don't have any good reactor software stories that come to mind, but I hope someone else does because i bet it'll be interesting mediaphage posted:the mushroom cloud itself reached 67 kilometres high, well into the mesosphere. hey so let's talk about the second-biggest mushroom cloud in that pic, Castle Bravo remember how I said a common thing with nuclear development was people thinking they knew what the gently caress was going on and definitely not knowing? Castle Bravo is a big one there. they planned it out very well, they thought, and expected a 6 megaton yield. they wanted to try deuterium-tritium fusion for the first time, using lithium as their fusion fuel. if you bombard lithium-6 with neutrons, you get tritium, an alpha particle, and a bunch of energy; when that tritium fuses with deuterium, you get another alpha particle and three times as much energy. so they used partially enriched lithium in the warhead: 40% lithium-6, to produce tritium, 60% lithium-7, the most common lithium isotope and presumably nonreactive on the timescale of a nuclear explosion. pretty good plan! except lol, turns out at such high energies, lithium-7 doesn't just absorb a neutron and then decay later; it also splits into tritium and an alpha particle, plus an extra neutron. so they got a lot more deuterium-tritium fusion than they expected from all that extra tritium, plus a lot more uranium fission than they expected from all those extra neutrons. and instead of 6 megatons, they got 15. on one hand, they learned that they could use cheap, common lithium-7 as their fusion fuel. yay! but on the other hand... pretty much everything else went wrong. the instruments that were supposed to transmit data right up until they got destroyed were destroyed too quickly. the instruments that were supposed to record data and survive didn't survive. the biggest US nuclear explosion ever and they got almost none of the data they wanted. and that was only the start of it. bigger explosion means more fallout, and because of the extra uranium fission, that extra fallout was incredibly dirty. fifteen islands suffered radioactive contamination and some had to be evacuated, probably more than were actually evacuated and for longer than they were; 70% of children under 10 at the time of the test developed thyroid tumors, and even decades later, women in the Marshall Islands were found to die of cervical cancer at a rate sixty times higher than normal. and a Japanese fishing boat was under the fallout plume and the entire crew got radiation sickness, with one eventually dying and the others spending over a year in the hospital. this caused a huge diplomatic incident: the official position of the US government was that bigger explosions did not create additional fallout, so the fishermen clearly could not be suffering from radiation sickness; consequently, they refused to provide Japanese doctors with the composition of the fallout, since that could be used to reverse engineer both the bomb's operation and the fuel it used, and that was an unacceptable security risk given that the fishermen clearly could not be suffering from radiation sickness; and the head of the Atomic Energy Commission went so far as to tell Eisenhower that he thought the fishermen were actually Soviet spies on a mission to discredit the US and also to discover the workings of their fusion bomb. but there was a huge international backlash, and the US ended up compensating Japan (albeit meagerly, and on the condition that the fishermen were not accorded the same status or benefits as victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki). and Japan's offense at suffering from yet another american nuclear explosion was a contributing factor to the creation of godzilla later that year
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Feb 14, 2022 01:12
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disaster pastor posted:I don't have any good reactor software stories that come to mind, but I hope someone else does because i bet it'll be interesting right! that blew my mind when i read that. an interesting side effect of that property of lithium is that it's theoretically possible to line the walls of a tokamak fusion reactor with it so that neutrons escaping from the plasma can strike the lithium and so breed tritium which could be used to fuel further fusion reactions. this property is actually necessary if we ever expect traditional deuterium-tritium fusion to take off: currently there's enough tritium on the planet for the experimental ITER reactor and literally pretty much nothing else. so even if we get d-t fusion working we have to hope we can sustainably breed tritium via lithium mediaphage fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 01:23
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echinopsis posted:looks like it’s a process of separating out the small quantities of the right isotopes. shifting around neutrons is basically what's happening inside nuclear reactors. that's how you get stuff like plutonium or medical isotopes.
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Feb 14, 2022 04:48
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rotor posted:anyway my dad worked at Rocky Flats most of his life keeping you ungrateful shitheads safe from the communist menace and told me a lot of stuff but dad was also known to tell a tall tale or two so it can be hard to separate fact from fiction while nuclear power plants get a bad rap, nuclear weapons plants were heinously bad. just total ecological and safety disasters. idk about rocky flats but i know the hanford cleanup has been an unending shitshow.
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Feb 14, 2022 08:34
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mediaphage posted:2.) the demon core slotin's death was just so unnecessary, too. he was loving around thinking he was cool by "tickling the dragon's tail" or whatever, he got told he was going to kill himself loving around, and then he found out.
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Feb 14, 2022 08:37
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:slotin's death was just so unnecessary, too. he was loving around thinking he was cool by "tickling the dragon's tail" or whatever, he got told he was going to kill himself loving around, and then he found out. i know, right?? and he was close with the first dude who died from it, too
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Feb 14, 2022 08:44
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I'm sure if you have interest in this thread you'll have already read it, but on the off chance: pick up a copy of Eric Schlosser's COMMAND AND CONTROL https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_and_Control_(book) it will have you hooting and hollering and wondering how people are still alive in any numbers on this earth.
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Feb 14, 2022 13:10
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:slotin's death was just so unnecessary, too. he was loving around thinking he was cool by "tickling the dragon's tail" or whatever, he got told he was going to kill himself loving around, and then he found out. just unending stories of terminal arrogant stupidity which brings us to the guy who was standing behind Slotin when his arrogant stupidity became terminal, Alvin Graves! his dose was comparable to, but lesser than, the dose Daghlian got in the first demon core incident, and he was given a 50/50 chance of survival. he spent two weeks under medical care and weeks after that too ill to do much but lie in bed. he'd die a few months short of his 56th birthday. and despite all that, and despite also the fact that Slotin had died of radioactive melting before Graves was even allowed to sleep in his own bed after the incident... quote:Having survived his own exposure, Graves came to believe fallout worries were "concocted in the minds of weak malingerers" and recommended that radiation exposures be compared to on-the-job accidents. A dose of fifteen roentgens, for example, could be the equivalent of a "cut finger not requiring stitches," he suggested. "Such a guide would not only be useful for operational decisions but would be extremely useful for public relations purposes." now, if dude wants to be stupid about his own exposure, whatever, it's his future funeral. but Graves went on to be in charge of a whole bunch of nuclear tests. including Castle Bravo. in fact, when the test team pointed out that the wind, which had been blowing north the day before (and into open ocean) was now blowing east (and over inhabited islands), the person they pointed it out to was Alvin Graves, who said, essentially, "so what?" the worst part about terminal arrogant stupidity is that it can be terminal for other people disaster pastor fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 15:02
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disaster pastor posted:now, if dude wants to be stupid about his own exposure, whatever, it's his future funeral. but Graves went on to be in charge of a whole bunch of nuclear tests. including Castle Bravo. in fact, when the test team pointed out that the wind, which had been blowing north the day before (and into open ocean) was now blowing east (and over uninhabited islands), the person they pointed it out to was Alvin Graves, who said, essentially, "so what?" the worst part about terminal arrogant stupidity is that it can be terminal for other people same energy as the guy who invented leaded gasoline who inhaled the vapor of some of the additive during a press conference to "prove" that it was safe
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Feb 14, 2022 15:42
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