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CONTENT WARNING: UKRAINE IS NOW AN ACTIVE WAR ZONE, POSSIBLE VIOLENT IMAGERY AND VIDEO AHEAD. NO WW3/NUKES/CLANCY CHAT. THIS IS NOT HELPFUL. NATO AND US WILL NOT BE INTERVENING. If you insist, post about it in the Clancychat thread. FOR MACHINE TRANSLATIONS USE DEEPL - https://www.deepl.com/translator READ OTHER THREAD RULES BELOW.  Want to help Ukraine? Visit our donation drive thread.CommieGIR posted:Potential Gangtag by goon Loden Taylor Extended thread rules below.cinci zoo sniper posted:
cinci zoo sniper posted:
CommieGIR posted:
cinci zoo sniper posted:
cinci zoo sniper posted:
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This thread is for Discussion of the ongoing Ukraine crisis and Russian intervention to help take the weight off the Eastern Europe thread, with a focus on current events. We're done with talking about the Azov battalion unless they've gotten murdered by the Russians or did something current. Jesus. Cinci Zoo Sniper remains the thread IK since this remains an EE thread spinoff Active toxxes Silver2195 posted:It will end by "Friday," i.e., within 18 months. Silver2195 posted:Yes. The war will end (or at least be "re-frozen") before November 10, 2023. Keisari posted:It is done. This is the beginning of the end of this imperial misadventure. Resolved toxxes nurmie posted:i propose the following conditions for my counter- HonorableTB posted:I think these are reasonable and accept Toxxes will not be acted upon until the entire D&D Mod Team and Koos review circumstances - Referring to Ukraine as "the Ukraine" is broadly deprecated, what with it being the language of extreme Russian nationalism that rejects the idea of Ukrainians being a real people or a real language group. While we generally set a high bar for language policing these days, this is one of the few things that may be taken as a signal of bad faith engagement. - GJB THREAD: We are aware there are Nazis in Ukraine. We do not constantly have to revisit this issue every 4 pages. Unless its something current events related to the Nazis in Ukraine, or the Nazis in Russia, or whatever: Shutup about it.  P.S. If you're looking for media accounts to follow, this may be useful: cinci zoo sniper posted:Twitter accounts for Russo-Ukrainian war. This is just a compilation of accounts I'm aware of, rather than a recommendation to read all of this, or some kind of “allowed sources” list for the thread. My general suggestions are to use common sense: Somebody fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 19:31
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- visible gore, visible death (any target), likely death (any visible target), clear violence against civilians, cruel treatment of probable POWs
- light wounds, clear violence against military, particularly emotional moments, heavy language, massive fires
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Conspiratiorist posted:Fact is one of the world's largest militaries has concentrated >60% of its fighting power along the border of a country it invaded less than 10 years ago and somehow we still have no loving idea what it's going to do or how they're going to do it.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:36
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Nazis Against Territories for Others (NATO) is at it again: https://twitter.com/RenieriArts/status/1492249342580830211?t=h8jPu2tPEjBhxxToXyg5Sg&s=19 Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 19:40
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Truga posted:so they should have said "you're not getting in" then, and thus avoiding a bunch of suffering for ukrainians because by 2014 clearly russia felt like they can handle propping up an insurgency now I'm gonna answer this here: Weapons shipments can be saber rattling, but I don't think they are in this case. Ukraine is asking for military support, we've actually largely denied them that to avoid a possible US/Russia confrontation. The only one who has stepped on Ukrainian soil with the intent of using military force, or threatened to do so, is Russia. Cpt_Obvious posted:The chief Nazis Against Territories for Others (NATO) is at it again: Yes, she's a loving mess. Surprisingly common with Nationalists. But jesus gently caress Cpt_Obvious, really? Impying NATO is a Nazi aligned org? You could've discussed this hosed up individual without implying all of NATO = Nazis. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 19:42
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CommieGIR posted:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Heusinger quote:Adolf Bruno Heinrich Ernst Heusinger (4 August 1897 – 30 November 1982) was a German military officer, whose career spanned the German Empire, the Weimar Republic, Nazi Germany and West Germany. Heusinger joined the German Army as a volunteer in 1915 and later became a professional soldier. He served as the Operations Chief within general staff of the High Command of the German Army in the Nazi German Armed Forces from 1938 to 1944, before being appointed acting chief of the general staff for two weeks in 1944 after his predecessor (Kurt Zeitzler) resigned his post due to a nervous breakdown. He was then appointed head of the military cartography office when the war ended. He later became a general for West Germany and served as head of the West German military from 1957 to 1961 as well as Chairman of the NATO Military Committee from 1961 to 1964.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:46
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Truga posted:
Weird though that the support for joining NATO was still below staying away from it in 2014 when Russia invaded.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:46
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Continuing the discussion from the other thread.Truga posted:so they should have said "you're not getting in" then, and thus avoiding a bunch of suffering for ukrainians because by 2014 clearly russia felt like they can handle propping up an insurgency now On the other hand could it not be argued that the root cause is due to Russia? Ukraine wouldn't have an interest in NATO if they didn't feel threatened by their neighbour. If Russia wasn't a threatening force then joining NATO would be of little interest. If one starts from the position that Ukraine has the right to self-determination and not to be anyone's pawn than it's only logical to seek aid if you feel threatened by another country. There's a whole rabbit hole delving into what the West could have or should have done in the 90s that may have prevented Russia from developing as it has over the last 30 years but at the root of it is that a country has no reason to join a defensive alliance if they don't feel threatened by anyone else. Presumably the Baltic nations didn't join just for the fun of it.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:46
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Ukrainian President declares February 16th the National Day of Unity. https://www.president.gov.ua/documents/532022-41357
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Feb 14, 2022 19:47
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CommieGIR posted:I'm gonna answer this here: Weapons shipments can be saber rattling, but I don't think they are in this case. Ukraine is asking for military support, we've actually largely denied them that to avoid a possible US/Russia confrontation. western state apparatuses and media are hyping this supposed invasion that's kicking off in 2 weeks, and how we should totally help ukraine (for 8 years straight now i might add), and just generally spreading stupid fear, almost like they're planning some kind of false flag themselves you can't just decouple these things from the weapon shipments, they're connected. it's absolutely saber rattling. i mean, gently caress, try opening cnn or bbc front page, they're loving insane i can't really speak for what putin's end goal is here, seeing how i'm not him, but i can say that as an EU citizen, our leaders absolutely are partially responsible for the bullshit going on e: Wistful of Dollars posted:Continuing the discussion from the other thread. oh certainly, and hindsight is always 20/20, but i still feel like with how much our media portrays our leaders as some kind of beacon of democracy, diplomacy and just general eliteness, surely they could have easily navigated something even i could see coming Truga fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 19:48
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there's also the whole: We were very explicit that Georgia and Ukraine were not being considered for NATO....and then Russian invaded Georgia to support the separatists. Even if we again emphasized they are not being considered, Putin has made it clear through action it really doesn't matter.Truga posted:western state apparatuses and media are hyping this supposed invasion that's kicking off in 2 weeks, and how we should totally help ukraine (for 8 years straight now i might add), and just generally spreading stupid fear, almost like they're planning some kind of false flag themselves .....wait are now claiming this is all a Western false flag plot and that Russia didn't invade Donbass in 2014 or annex Crimea? At what point do you just totally absolve Putin of any action he takes by implying a false flag? Of course they are insane: There's a fuckton of divisions Putin is stacking immediately on Ukraine's border, planning missile drills that block all their ports, and continue to keep adding more men and hardware to the pile? We haven't seen a buildup like this since the US prepped for Afghanistan/Iraq? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 19:48
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenz_M%FCller quote:Vincenz Müller (5 November 1894 – 12 May 1961) was a military officer and general who served in the German army, the Army of Nazi Germany, and after the war in the National People's Army of the (East) German Democratic Republic, where he was also a politician. Müller eventually became a member of the East German parliament, the Volkskammer, and served as chief of staff of the National People's Army.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:50
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Truga posted:western state apparatuses and media are hyping this supposed invasion that's kicking off in 2 weeks, and how we should totally help ukraine (for 8 years straight now i might add), and just generally spreading stupid fear, almost like they're planning some kind of false flag themselves And yet there's only one side that can actually commit to an invasion or back off from it, so why are you blaming Ukraine or NATO for 'sabre rattling'
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Feb 14, 2022 19:50
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Is the mere act of reporting on Russian troop movements and putting out statements saying "Don't invade Ukraine, we will react if you invade Ukraine" considered sabre rattling?
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Feb 14, 2022 19:51
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Do you consider modern Russia a communist country because a lot of current leadership were members of the party some time ago (and are actually alive)?
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Feb 14, 2022 19:52
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Are Nazis in control of Ukraine's government? No. Do they make up a significant or influential part of its legislature? As near as I can tell, no. Do the root causes of Ukraine's conflict with Russia involve Nazis in any significant way? Absolutely not. And with this being the case, my firm belief is that anybody who tries to point to the existance of Nazi militias in Ukraine or lovely individuals on the ground as some kind of gotcha is being both disingenuous and a shithead. Ukraine may have a problem with Nazis, same as many other places — but these problems have absolutely nothing to do with why Russia wants political control over the Ukrainian people and their territory.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:55
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Nazis Against Territories for Others (NATO) is at it again: This is the third post in this thread and it's already looking less like a discussion thread and more like a crazy relative's Facebook timeline, and now instead of discussing the article we're discussing one poster inferring that NATO is a Nazi organization. The link would have worked perfectly fine on it's own without this nonsense.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:55
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CommieGIR posted:I'm gonna answer this here: Weapons shipments can be saber rattling, but I don't think they are in this case. Ukraine is asking for military support, we've actually largely denied them that to avoid a possible US/Russia confrontation. Yea, it’s not like high ranking Nazi war criminals were recruited and welcomed into NATO leadership or anything.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:55
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https://twitter.com/mrsorokaa/status/1493279960424980481 this is in response to about a dozen MPs (out of 424) who have reportedly left the country. most of these MPs are from the pro-Russian Opposition Platform — For Life.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:56
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CommieGIR posted:Of course they are insane: There's a fuckton of divisions Putin is stacking immediately on Ukraine's border, planning missile drills that block all their ports, and continue to keep adding more men and hardware to the pile? We haven't seen a buildup like this since the US prepped for Afghanistan/Iraq? until recently us/korea did bigger joint exercises every couple years on north korean border and it barely even got mentioned in the news lol mmkay posted:And yet there's only one side that can actually commit to an invasion or back off from it, so why are you blaming Ukraine or NATO for 'sabre rattling' not blaming ukraine for anything, their communications have been one of the few voices of reason in this whole clusterfuck
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Feb 14, 2022 19:57
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Truga posted:western state apparatuses and media are hyping this supposed invasion that's kicking off in 2 weeks, and how we should totally help ukraine (for 8 years straight now i might add), and just generally spreading stupid fear, almost like they're planning some kind of false flag themselves There have been people dying for 8 years, almost every day, from Russian artillery. Truga posted:
Oh, this part is absolutely true. They have continued bankrolling Russian army with idiotic energy policy, and continued selling them what they need to modernize it despite 2014. A good number of retired German politicians are literally on Russian payroll and continue influencing its policy. The response in 2014 from them and Obama was basically a green light... But I somehow think you don't mean that.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:58
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ah yeah, let's do more sanctions, those sure seem to hurt the militaries and oligarchs, not average people
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Feb 14, 2022 19:59
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Truga posted:ah yeah, let's do more sanctions, those sure seem to hurt the militaries and oligarchs, not average people Your right, Russia is going for the more peaceful and less harmful route here.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:00
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Hopefully the war is quick and as bloodless as possible. Its increasingly clear the West and NATO only view Ukraine as a pawn in the most cynical chess game around.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:01
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Danger posted:Yea, it’s not like high ranking Nazi war criminals were recruited and welcomed into NATO leadership or anything. I mean by that logic can we point to the USSR version of operation paperclip and say that Russia is also a Nazi country? Seems fair
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Feb 14, 2022 20:02
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Terminal autist posted:Hopefully the war is quick and as bloodless as possible. Its increasingly clear the West and NATO only view Ukraine as a pawn in the most cynical chess game around. I think the desires of the people of Ukraine matter the most, here.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:02
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Truga posted:western state apparatuses and media are hyping this supposed invasion that's kicking off in 2 weeks, and how we should totally help ukraine (for 8 years straight now i might add), and just generally spreading stupid fear, almost like they're planning some kind of false flag themselves While the Western government's (and ghoulish media) messaging has been atrocious, their actions have been the opposite of saber-rattling: they're bending over backwards to avoid an escalation chain with Russia. Removing instructors from Ukraine, diplomats, urging citizens to leave, declaring again and again that they will not send troops to defend Ukraine - that's all intended to make it clear that NATO (collectively or individually) will not get into a direct confrontation with Russia. Other than receiving the new buzzword lethal aid support, Ukraine is on its own. Moral support, though: may they fight the good fight against Russian imperialism down to the last Ukrainian.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:02
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Terminal autist posted:Hopefully the war is quick and as bloodless as possible. Its increasingly clear the West and NATO only view Ukraine as a pawn in the most cynical chess game around. Military force is okay if you are Russia, just be quick. Avoiding a confrontation and World War, there's the real troublemakers. That's an....impressive shifting of goal posts.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:03
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Are Nazis in control of Ukraine's government? No. As other people have said, they Nazis in question came up when people uncritically passed around media reports that whitewashed the fact that they were covering literal Nazis. You can't post poo poo about heroic resistance fighters ready to stand up against Russian aggression and then get mad when people go hey that individual, not all Ukrainians or all Ukrainian armed forces, but that person, was a Nazi. The only reason to get angry when someone points that out is if you think "good" Nazis can and should be embraced as long as they have the right enemies. Which, coincidentally, is a view the West has often had about fascists. Even outside of that specific context, I think it's pretty questionable to suggest it should be verboten to point out the existence of armed quasi-official Nazi organizations in a country. Hell even the US Congress stripped out provisions requiring that military assistance not trickle down to Azov Battalion until 2018, which seems pretty bad to me. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 20:04
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Terminal autist posted:Hopefully the war is quick and as bloodless as possible. Its increasingly clear the West and NATO only view Ukraine as a pawn in the most cynical chess game around. I would not hope for active mass invasion of Russian forces personally, but thats me.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:05
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Sinteres posted:As other people have said, they Nazis in question came up when people uncritically passed around media reports that whitewashed the fact that they were covering literal Nazis. You can't post poo poo about heroic resistance fighters ready to stand up against Russian aggression and then get mad when people go hey that individual, not all Ukrainians or all Ukrainian armed forces, but that person, was a Nazi. The only reason to get angry when someone points that out is if you think "good" Nazis can and should be embraced as long as they have the right enemies. Which, coincidentally, is a view the West has often had about fascists. Except literally nobody on the forums was posting any of those stories. It was just brought up out of nowhere to browbeat the thread into admitting that the fascist dictatorship is actually morally superior to the decadent west and shouldn't be resisted. Unironically stanning for this worldview itt 
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Feb 14, 2022 20:06
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steinrokkan posted:Unironically stanning for this worldview itt That's definitely not my worldview, and you're a bad person for casually suggesting it is.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:10
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Are Nazis in control of Ukraine's government? No. Reposting from the other thread. The far right in Ukraine has absolutely had an influence in domestic politics beyond "some militias". mila kunis posted:Yeah man only the pro russians are ethnic supremacist, there's absolutely nothing going on in the ukrainian nationalist side. The "ukrainization" and "decommunization" drives, discrimination against russian speakers, the banning of eastern ukrainian parties, the suppression of opposition media, the selective prosecution of politicians (I absolutely loved Zelensky being ordered directly not to prosecute Poroshenko), the glorification of nazi and fascist collaborators, all of that has contributed to the polarization and splitting apart of the country. After nearly 30 years as part of independent Ukraine, people in Donbass didn't suddenly decide they wanted out just for fun.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:16
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Are Nazis in control of Ukraine's government? No. Does Ukraine have an entire battalion integrated into it's official armed forces that proudly and openly displays fascist insignia? Ok yes, maybe but lets not forget Russia bad
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Feb 14, 2022 20:17
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Red and Black posted:Ok yes, maybe but lets not forget Russia bad I think the problem is Putin, not Russia as a country or the Russian people themselves. Putin is the one in control here, the one threatening an aggressive war of imperial conquest. He can end this with a word.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:19
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Pretty radical shift in tone. https://twitter.com/jseldin/status/1493302440770379777
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Feb 14, 2022 20:19
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Truga posted:until recently us/korea did bigger joint exercises every couple years on north korean border and it barely even got mentioned in the news lol It's not the worst analogy, though: it's still only a cease-fire, and border incidents aren't uncommon (though mostly less common as time goes on).
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Feb 14, 2022 20:22
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How are u posted:I think the problem is Putin, not Russia as a country or the Russian people themselves. Putin is the one in control here, the one threatening an aggressive war of imperial conquest. He can end this with a word. Even if Russia were a perfect democracy, it would still oppose NATOs expansion into Ukraine. It would still oppose NATO troops in Ukraine. It would still oppose western missiles in Ukraine. (and it would still be called a dictatorship by the western media) This is a matter of a core security concern and not of the personal ideology of one man, who by the way probably isn't as all powerful as you've convinced yourself he is.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:22
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ranbo das posted:I mean by that logic can we point to the USSR version of operation paperclip and say that Russia is also a Nazi country? Seems fair Sure? Go hog wild. What you shouldn't do is divorce current ideological factors from their material historical antecedents.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:23
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What made Zelensky do a 180 on downplaying the invasion's imminence? I'm sure this is just a reconciliation of his private and public positions but what prompted that?
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Feb 14, 2022 20:24
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Both countries have a big problem with fascist ideology but neither one is really dominated by it. I don't think Zelensky is a Nazi I can tell you what would make things worse for them, though: a bloody war. Iran didn't go full psycho mode and start mass executions of communists until the Iran-Iraq war. A Russian invasion could make for extremely bad times in both Russia and Ukraine
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Feb 14, 2022 20:24
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