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egon_beeblebrox posted:I'm about halfway through seerfasunon 6 of Buffy/Season 3 of Angel, andd it really feels like the quality of "Buffy" fell off a cliff after season five. This is the first time I've watched the shows in at least a decade, always liked season six a lot when I was younger. Eh, tastes change. Holtz is the best Angel villain, you understand exactly where he is coming from and feels more threatening than the other big bass to me.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:22
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I rewatched all of Buffy a couple of years back (S5 was incredibly hard going as I was going through similar real life issues at the time - the scene where Buffy first gets the news from Joyce, does the dishes and breaks down crying was about as All Too loving Real as any TV show has ever gotten for me, not to mention you-know-what later) and what struck me was both how surprisingly well the series mostly held up, and how much more I appreciated S6 nowadays (and Tara full stop - “was it sudden?” “No. And yes. It’s always sudden” destroys me). I think if I were to rank the seasons now, it’d be S5/S3 > S2 > S6 > S1/S4 > S7. Overall, I really enjoyed re-watching Buffy for the most part, personal circumstances notwithstanding. Angel, on the other hand, I have never finished. I gave up a few eps into S5 back in the day and never liked it enough to persist with a re-watch. The hatchet job it does on Cordy mortally offends me to this day.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:26
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Pan Dulce posted:I only gave Buffy a shot because I was depressed and wanted something to zone out to. It was crazy how sucked in I got and how much S6 depresso-Buffy mimicked how I felt about life and the world around me. I'm better now, but I often wonder why they never let Buffy talk to a Watcher or a witch, some form of supernatural therapist. The whole "I wanna show you the world, Dawn" picking herself up by her bootstraps felt unearned. I think probably because a big part of the season is about the character struggling without any support network or safety net -- no parental support, no friends, no money, but a full time responsibility in slaying, a second one in Dawn and crushing depression. (A confluence of factors which are probably the only reason she'd possibly turn to Spike). Getting a therapist would be ideal, sure, but between money and time (and the way depression eats up your time) I don't see how she'd have been able to. But I never know how much we're meant to think about the issue of money -- e.g. Willow (and co.) basically spending all of Joyce's legacy and then living in Buffy's house without apparently contributing to household costs probably isn't meant to be something we hold against the character.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:33
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Did Giles' actor schedule to leave S6 or something though? I just hated how someone who was a father-figure to Buffy just up and bailed on her in her greatest time of need, "for her own good." I mean, back in the day, Watchers were EVERYTHING to their Slayers, from providers to counselors and Giles just did the not-true-to-character thing of leaving her high and dry. Did the actor not wanna be on the show anymore? Was there behind-the-scenes drama?
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Jul 31, 2022 01:45
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Pan Dulce posted:Did Giles' actor schedule to leave S6 or something though? I just hated how someone who was a father-figure to Buffy just up and bailed on her in her greatest time of need, "for her own good." I mean, back in the day, Watchers were EVERYTHING to their Slayers, from providers to counselors and Giles just did the not-true-to-character thing of leaving her high and dry. Did the actor not wanna be on the show anymore? Was there behind-the-scenes drama? he wanted to leave the show/go to recurring so he could spend more time in england with his family. no drama has been attributed to it. can't blame him for that after 5 years, but it doesn't make any sense for giles to do that and ruins his character from that point on. it's 'outta the house when you're 18' style bullshit. ah yes buffy i see that you're falling apart after the most traumatic year of your life, but you're 21 now and it's time to bootstrap immediately goodbye. they could've done something else. have the watcher's council revoke his green card because buffy was brought back with black magic and he wasn't keeping things under control. then he's gone for half the season back to england while the gang deal with the council every so often trying to get him back until finally they agree when willow goes nuts or something. anything other than abandoning his adopted daughter. roomtone fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jul 31, 2022 |
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Jul 31, 2022 01:49
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"I'd like to test that theory" is such a badass line to walk back in on. I fuckin love Giles.
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Jul 31, 2022 02:27
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roomtone posted:he wanted to leave the show/go to recurring so he could spend more time in england with his family. no drama has been attributed to it. I will give them the faintest praise that assuming they are somehow required to go with the dumb “I’m holding you back and must let you fly free” bullshit, like Carlos the Eel is gonna break Whedon’s legs if that doesn’t happen, given that, Anthony Stewart Head does a really good job with that garbage material and makes the medicine go down smooth. He’s charismatic enough that as long as he’s actively talking you can zone out and his voice just naturally has enough pathos that you believe him. Of course, then the scene continues and you go, “Wait no that’s the loving stupidest poo poo and I’m dumber for having heard it what the gently caress.” So basically Tony Head is a really good actor and him and the casting director back in season one did a good job, is what I’m saying.
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Jul 31, 2022 02:51
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Tony Head rules even when he's being a dick head on Ted Lasso. WATCH TED LASSO
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Jul 31, 2022 03:01
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Xiahou Dun posted:I will give them the faintest praise that assuming they are somehow required to go with the dumb “I’m holding you back and must let you fly free” bullshit, like Carlos the Eel is gonna break Whedon’s legs if that doesn’t happen, given that, Anthony Stewart Head does a really good job with that garbage material and makes the medicine go down smooth. He’s charismatic enough that as long as he’s actively talking you can zone out and his voice just naturally has enough pathos that you believe him. One of my favorite scenes is Anthony Head lying to Buffy about how the world works. I think it's season 1? He's just so good you kinda wanna believe him, even when Buffy asked him to lie to her. Also reiterating the Lasso love of Anthony Head. WATCH IT.
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Jul 31, 2022 03:17
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Pan Dulce posted:One of my favorite scenes is Anthony Head lying to Buffy about how the world works. I think it's season 1? He's just so good you kinda wanna believe him, even when Buffy asked him to lie to her. Of course I watched Ted Lasso. What am I an rear end in a top hat. Also the episode you’re thinking of is called Lie To Me, season 2 episode 7 I am broken inside but in my defence the name is kind of obvious.
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Jul 31, 2022 03:19
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Rhyno posted:"I'd like to test that theory" is such a badass line to walk back in on. I fuckin love Giles. It's up there with the bit where Glory turns into Ben for the last time, and Giles comes over to tend to him. "She's a hero, you see." Puts specs on. "She's not like us."
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Jul 31, 2022 08:51
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banned from Starbucks posted:I forgot how bad the Buffy needs to get a job episode was. Especially since by that point half the characters had moved into her house "to help" and werent contributing poo poo. Also, shouldn't the Watchers Council be doing more to support her? They have this massive, global organization dedicated to supporting the slayer, and they can't even give her a stipend?
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Jul 31, 2022 09:05
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SimonChris posted:Also, shouldn't the Watchers Council be doing more to support her? They have this massive, global organization dedicated to supporting the slayer, and they can't even give her a stipend? The Watchers Council is gang of incompetent, misogynistic assholes.
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Jul 31, 2022 09:45
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Alhazred posted:The Watchers Council is gang of incompetent, misogynistic assholes. yeah this is extremely explicit text
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Jul 31, 2022 09:52
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SimonChris posted:Also, shouldn't the Watchers Council be doing more to support her? They have this massive, global organization dedicated to supporting the slayer, and they can't even give her a stipend? Didn't the whole Council get blown the gently caress up in Season 5? I mean, yeah, obviously this Alhazred posted:The Watchers Council is gang of incompetent, misogynistic assholes. so they wouldn't have helped Buffy with living expenses anyway, but per the incompetent portion, they let themselves get blown the gently caress up, too.
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Jul 31, 2022 13:19
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Everyone posted:Didn't the whole Council get blown the gently caress up in Season 5? I mean, yeah, obviously this That was Season 7. I remember how pissed I was because, say what you want about the Council, but Quentin Travers has one of the most badass voices ever and he gives this big awesome speech about how they'll muster all their resources to take on the First Evil. Then cut to an outside shot of their HQ and KABOOM. In retrospect this was a very obvious comedic setup but I was less in the know about common tropes and poo poo when I saw S7.
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Jul 31, 2022 13:24
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The council would've been a more interesting final antagonist than the evil ghost which isn't anything
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Jul 31, 2022 13:46
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I was engaged with season 6 at the time, more than most other people, but the production quality definitely took a noticeable nosedive. The "Buffy turns invisible" episode felt like middle school theater. I think you can rationalize that Buffy didn't want to feel indebted to the Council in any way which is why she rarely if ever goes to them for help. The thing is that...like, I think it made sense to depict Buffy having to deal with real life issues and finances, and it certainly remains pretty topical today...but yeah the show really twisted itself into circles to justify the burdens it kept heaving on Buffy. Looking back on her adult responsibilities today, as an adult myself, it feels a little like the creators -- be it Whedon or Noxon or whoever else -- wanted to tackle the surface pressures of poverty without going into the actual intricacies of how financial burdens actually work. There were realistic -- if not perfect -- solutions for the problems that Buffy was facing, but the show seemed to determined to write around those solutions or just not address them in order to have the plot that it wanted to have, which is how we end up with Willow and Tara living at the house for literal months without contributing anything, Giles leaving his surrogate family to wallow in poverty because they needed his help and then telling Buffy after the fact that she should have asked him for help, and also Buffy's real dad getting retconned into much more of a deadbeat than ever before because issues are just more unsolvable that way.
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Jul 31, 2022 14:14
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I always figured the Council's plan was to remove their active support from her, in the belief that she'd eventually need to come back to them (rendering her dependent upon them again) or she'd just die. Hence her unwillingness to ever really engage with them. Practically speaking, setting them up as major villains would probably just be a repeat of the Initiative arc. But I have to admit I quite like the idea of the First Evil, and how it's used to express different kinds of psychological damage -- generational trauma, crippling doubt, suicidal ideation, intrusive thoughts, full blown misogyny, etc. BrianWilly posted:Giles leaving his surrogate family to wallow in poverty because they needed his help and then telling Buffy after the fact that she should have asked him for help, and also Buffy's real dad getting retconned into much more of a deadbeat than ever before because issues are just more unsolvable that way. Giles does at least leave her some money. I generally assume that money issues aren't overly focused on because American television generally doesn't like to talk about money, poverty, class struggle, etc. It feels taboo. And it would probably have required completely changing Buffy's fashion, hair, etc. But they absolutely could have done a far better job of it, yes.
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Jul 31, 2022 14:27
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Open Source Idiom posted:Practically speaking, setting them up as major villains would probably just be a repeat of the Initiative arc. But I have to admit I quite like the idea of the First Evil, and how it's used to express different kinds of psychological damage -- generational trauma, crippling doubt, suicidal ideation, intrusive thoughts, full blown misogyny, etc. Yeah going up against an institution might brush up into some initiative territory but I think not having them be a government organisation and instead a group of mystical freaks would've made it fit better with the show. I didn't put that much thought into it, I just think the first and the potentials are complete duds. The whole season is bad from concept to me. You bring up the various psychological damages that it represents, but my problem is that even just the things you've mentioned is too wide a range of things to cram into one antagonist, which is what they were going for - the first evil, all forms of badness - but in practice it just ended up being really amorphous to me because it didn't really have a personality and no actor was attached to the role. I've rewritten the show too many times in my head over the years though. In another version, the mayor doesn't die in S3 and continues to lurk in the background until S7 when he puts his ascension plan into action. Still do the Faith stuff with him in S3, but don't turn him into a giant snake and then when Faith comes back in S7 on the good side she can fight against the Mayor and he's all betrayed about it.
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Jul 31, 2022 15:01
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NikkolasKing posted:That was Season 7. I remember how pissed I was because, say what you want about the Council, but Quentin Travers has one of the most badass voices ever and he gives this big awesome speech about how they'll muster all their resources to take on the First Evil. You're right. Season 5 was when the WC tried to take back control over Buffy and she flatly told them that as the only Slayer (who wasn't psychotic/in prison/finding herself or whatever-the-gently caress was going on with Faith at that point) she was pretty much the only reason their lives had any meaning. So they could play ball with her or get the gently caress off her field. They chose to play ball. If I was inclined to fanwank a defense for the show, I'd say that Buffy was mostly too clinically depressed to take anything more than the most auto-pilot steps toward dealing with her financial problems. rear end in a top hat misogynists or not, figure the WC would be fine writing checks large enough to make sure the Slayer was slaying instead of asking people "Do you want fries with that?" But figure Buffy never reached out so they never knew. Or something.
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Jul 31, 2022 17:57
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Rhyno posted:"I'd like to test that theory" is such a badass line to walk back in on. I fuckin love Giles. One of my favorite moments. I liked when he killed Ben at the end of season 5. He really did the dirty work when he needed to.
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Jul 31, 2022 19:16
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Buffy should have just kept the money demon the kid from Home Improvement summons chained up in her basement
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Aug 1, 2022 01:00
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There are a lot of things that Buffy should have done…like not letting Xander become a sad sack of poo poo.
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Aug 1, 2022 01:13
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Bizarro Kanyon posted:There are a lot of things that Buffy should have done…like not letting Xander become a sad sack of poo poo. Xander was always a sad sack of poo poo with, on a good day, some issues with women under the surface. (Many days were not good.) But I think I still understand you.
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Aug 1, 2022 01:16
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Xiahou Dun posted:Xander was always a sad sack of poo poo with, on a good day, some issues with women under the surface. (Many days were not good.) Honestly, rewatching a few years ago with my wife (and now having 2 young daughters), the issues of men wanting to control women was no T subtle at all (even though my young teen self totally did not get it).
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Aug 1, 2022 02:16
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Bizarro Kanyon posted:Honestly, rewatching a few years ago with my wife (and now having 2 young daughters), the issues of men wanting to control women was no T subtle at all (even though my young teen self totally did not get it). God no. He is brazenly a shitlord. His “good days” were just episodes where he wasn’t written actively misogynistic.
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Aug 1, 2022 02:31
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Bizarro Kanyon posted:There are a lot of things that Buffy should have done…like not letting Xander become a sad sack of poo poo. S 7 has this line where Xander after losing an eye to Caleb tears into Buffy by saying "or maybe i just dont't *see* that" and it's always hewed too close to S1 Mean Nice Guy Xander for my comfort. Probably the most true thing they've ever done with the character is have him hook up with The Hot Chick and then totally throw it away by cheating on her with the girl whose romantic advances he spurned because of course his deal was bigger than "why don't any of the cute girls like me and always date the Bad Guys".
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Aug 1, 2022 02:59
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I think Kanyon meant the show Buffy could have treated him better. Not Buffy as a character in the show.
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Aug 1, 2022 03:26
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That is true. They could have tied in his Soldier Costume programming into being more disciplined or paid Brendan to, iono, get jacked or something? They had him be a successful tradesman. Did that get tossed in the trash before he started dating Dawn in the comics??
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Aug 1, 2022 03:44
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Xiahou Dun posted:I think Kanyon meant the show Buffy could have treated him better. This, not the character. Sorry for the confusion. Buffy, the character, did not control him nor was it her responsibility to. Every few seasons, Xander would act like a dickhead because who Buffy was dating. It seemed like the only reason it was written in there was so the character could give a speech declaring how dumb Buffy was just for who she was with and how this was all her fault. Honestly, he has a bunch of incel moments throughout the show that only now really would be recognized as such.
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Aug 1, 2022 04:02
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FilthyImp posted:That is true. They could have tied in his Soldier Costume programming into being more disciplined or paid Brendan to, iono, get jacked or something? IIRC Whedon threw a fit when Brendan showed up in season 2 looking fit because he wanted a more schlubby character.
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Aug 1, 2022 04:23
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Yeah, there was behind the scenes drama because Branden, for pretty obvious career reasons, didn't actually want to be a permanent schlub. It's one of the reasons for Xander getting a construction job so they could explain him being in shape. And thus we got that scene in season 4 where the girls are watching Xander dig without a shirt on.
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Aug 1, 2022 04:34
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Hahaha, Xander sucks. He's sucked since season 1 and it doesn't ever end. He's an incel before those existed and perma-"Nice Guy." Thus, apt when Whedon calls him his stand-in. To be fair though, I give a lot of characters slack for being awful if they're interesting. Spike's a dick and an absolutely awful "boyfriend" to have from every girl he's been with. Compilations of how he acted with Harmony are sickening with how much of an abuser he was. But he's my second favorite character because he was interesting. Xander doesn't even have that going for him. I'm rewatching Buffy with my husband who's never seen the show, but I can't get past S2 and the Angel debacle. I can't stand Angel either. Angelus is neat on his own show, but his torture of Buffy makes me sad.
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Aug 1, 2022 04:45
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Xander is obviously intended to be a literal nice guy, a kind of geeky everyman with pluck and a good sense of humor who can fill out the group with raw humanity. But he's written by a literal Nice Guy so that was never gonna actually get pulled off and if you want to get even halfway there, or even just to "tolerable", you have to mentally rewrite half the god drat show. It's one of the biggest discrepancies between what the show is trying to tell the viewer and what it's showing, up there with pretending that Joyce and Giles aren't cool and sexy as poo poo.
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Aug 1, 2022 04:58
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GoutPatrol posted:IIRC Whedon threw a fit when Brendan showed up in season 2 looking fit because he wanted a more schlubby character. Joss: "How dare you? YOU ARE MY SELF INSERT!" Brendon: "What?" Joss: "What?"
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Aug 1, 2022 12:49
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To be fair, ultimately Brendon was working as an actor and it’s completely reasonable for the showrunner to want him to look like his role.
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Aug 1, 2022 14:28
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Not every actor is Christian Bale.
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Aug 1, 2022 17:34
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banned from Starbucks posted:Not every actor is Christian Bale. And now I'm trying to imagine Xander as played by Christian Bale, which kind of works because Nicholas Brendon is actually about three years older than Bale. Right now I'm just imagining Patrick Bateman with a stake.
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Aug 1, 2022 19:54
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Bale would have gone all method. If Whedon told him to get fat he'd have been the fuckin blob.
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Aug 1, 2022 23:45
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