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roomtone posted:Spike's basically never 'evil' on the show the way other villains are, at least not since mid S2 when they realised they weren't killing him off. It's more that he is just only interested in how he feels, and acts accordingly. How he feels can either be good or bad for other people. Him getting the soul just gives him the ability to look beyond himself for a second and realise okay maybe how I feel about this isn't the only or even relevant thing. You need to sort of ignore the usual vampire rules when thinking about Spike and just think about him as a person for a lot of it to work. I thought they handled the 'what does a soul do?' thing pretty well with Spike. Sure, prior to getting re-souled he can logically work out what is the good/evil course of action, and how his actions might affect other people, he just can't actually empathise with anyone. He's like a psychopath trying to live a normal life, he knows what the consequences of his actions might be but he doesn't feel any guilt over them. So of course his love for Buffy is twisted and manipulative, he desperately wants to be with her but he doesn't actually care about her feelings beyond how they influence her actions towards him. If he can manipulate her into ditching her friends and spending more time with him, that's a 100% positive result. How it makes her feel isn't even on his radar. And ultimately of course (in my opinion), the reason he goes to get his soul back isn't because he feels guilty over anything he's done. It's because he realises that without that ability to feel her emotions he's going to drive her away for good. EDIT: Although I admit I really like the contrast they explore in Angel between a vampire that was cursed with a soul and one who sought it out willingly.
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Mar 16, 2022 16:11
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Soulless Spike's morality is a debate that will probably never end and I commented on it just the other day on Reddit where somebody was trying to say he was always a psychopath. In philosophy, there's a theory called psychological egoism. Basically anything a person does or thinks is ultimately selfish or at least self-interested. This leads to all sorts of silly poo poo because you're starting with a conclusion and bending over backwards to explain how everything fits into it. That's how I see people who want to insist Spike was pure evil end of story. This is not even a case of later retcons because even in S2 we have the narrative spelling it out to us via the Judge who hates the love he sees in Spike and Dru but there is not a shred of that in Angelus. In S5, we have two perfect examples where you really have to mangle the facts back into the conclusion of "Spike is a purely evil, selfish being." First, there's how he tries to leave flowers in Joyce's memory completely anonymously. And two, there was how he refused to give up Dawn to Glory even though he was very much a dead man. In neither case can he get any actual benefit from these noble acts. I'm not saying Spike was a great and swell guy. But if we have something like a Good and Evil Meter with 10 is Pure Goodand -10 is Pure Evil, S5 Spike is probably around a 0, maybe even 1 or 2. Angelus or Caleb would be like -10 and his old self probably would be at least a -6 or -7 or something. Sorry for the nerdy numbers, I'm just trying to get across my point as clearly as possible. Spike as a vampire is just a bundle of questions and weirdness. Speaking o Angelus, we see him in life as Liam. We see Spike in life as William. Spike is fundamentally the same person as he was in life but Liam and Angelus have nothing in common with the one being an impulsive lout and the other a methodical and calculating monster. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Mar 16, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 16:13
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NikkolasKing posted:Soulless Spike's morality is a debate that will probably never end and I commented on it just the other day on Reddit where somebody was trying to say he was always a psychopath. I think the conflict is assuming "he's a psychopath" means "he's purely selfish and evil" when it really just means he doesn't feel empathy. Sure, some real-life psychopaths become serial killers but plenty of them lead normal lives (and may actually have an advantage in some careers). Obviously it helps that psychopathy in humans is more of a spectrum, but just lacking empathy doesn't automatically mean you'll behave badly, especially if you put a lot of conscious thought into what the consequences of your behaviour will be. And especially especially if you're consciously trying to be a 'good' person, like Spike presumably is. So refusing to give up Dawn makes sense even if you assume he doesn't feel anything for her, because he doesn't want the world to be destroyed. Both for selfish reasons and because preventing the world being destroyed is obviously what a good person would do. Him leaving flowers for Joyce is harder to explain, but even if he doesn't feel anything for her he still understands the concepts that a friend dying is sad and that leaving flowers is considered a nice gesture. So yeah, it's complicated, but I still think the best explanation for his morality is that he intellectually knows the difference between good and evil, he remembers his life before being vamped and he can usually work out how his behaviour will make other people feel, but he lacks true empathy and he lacks the guilt that comes with hurting others. The reason he's hard to get a read on is because he's often actively trying to compensate for those traits. He just doesn't always do a great job, especially where choosing the 'good' option conflicts with something else he wants. As for the question of "why is he trying to be good now when he wasn't before", I think you can either put it down to him enjoying spending time with the Scooby gang and wanting it to continue, some sort of deeper moral revelation from spending more time around humans and remembering more of his past, or just plain being bored with being the villain. But the biggest factor is probably falling in love with Buffy and wanting to imitate her/impress her, whereas his behaviour before was more driven by his relationship with Dru and Angelus. jabby fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Mar 16, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 17:05
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I've always read Spike as being motivated by self-preservation and the opportunity to engage in something he loves (violence) without the consequences that typically come with how he goes about that. It's been interesting to read other people's opinions. Though yeah, I do think he's often a villain, I don't think he's evil in any absolute moral term. I just think he genuinely enjoys killing and eating people, and would probably be doing it all the time in seasons 4/5/6 if he were able. He certainly pushes the envelope far enough in other ways -- weapons dealing, sexual assault, domestic violence, and the kittens thing is a comedic form of what's essentially animal abuse. He's certainly responsible for a lot of horrible poo poo.
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Mar 16, 2022 17:23
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I did a rewatch of most of Angel/Buffy last year and the constant shock of "no no no" with regards to creepy Jossiness aside, one of the most jarring Joss-self-insertions/"using teens to speak his opinions" was when Buffy goes off to college and ends up in this dorm with a new character and it's meant to be about the hassles of suddenly sharing a tiny bedroom with an adult. There's enough passive aggressiveness and conflict to carry the episode, but before they get into that they try to let us know how irritating this character was and one of the big ones was her music taste. I don't even remember the music she liked, except that it was something today that's just seen as fine music of the era, and that it seemed appropriate that either of them might have enjoyed that music, but for an older weirdo man he couldn't get why anyone would like it so assumed everyone else would feel the same.
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Mar 16, 2022 17:43
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Khanstant posted:I did a rewatch of most of Angel/Buffy last year and the constant shock of "no no no" with regards to creepy Jossiness aside, one of the most jarring Joss-self-insertions/"using teens to speak his opinions" was when Buffy goes off to college and ends up in this dorm with a new character and it's meant to be about the hassles of suddenly sharing a tiny bedroom with an adult. There's enough passive aggressiveness and conflict to carry the episode, but before they get into that they try to let us know how irritating this character was and one of the big ones was her music taste. I don't even remember the music she liked, except that it was something today that's just seen as fine music of the era, and that it seemed appropriate that either of them might have enjoyed that music, but for an older weirdo man he couldn't get why anyone would like it so assumed everyone else would feel the same. if i remember the episode right, it was that she listened to celine dion constantly and had a big poster of her in the room. i was a kid at the time but i remember celine dion being seen as a corny joke. still is, i think? but anyway, not really cool college kid music to gen Xers, which buffy and pals basically are. i don't know why you think this is coming from joss being creepy. cool 20 year olds in 2000 would think liking celine dion was lame. unless i'm forgetting a scene where kathy is listening to indie rock and buffy is disgusted. it's not a very good episode though.
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Mar 16, 2022 17:56
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Isn't it not just Celine Dion, but the same one Celine Dion song on a loop at full blast?
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Mar 16, 2022 18:04
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just went and checked, it's a remix of believe by cher that she's actually listening to. same kind of thing.
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Mar 16, 2022 18:10
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roomtone posted:just went and checked, it's a remix of believe by cher that she's actually listening to. same kind of thing. Wasn't that a bigger club song and a gay anthem at the time? So much more acceptable that fuddy duddy Celine Dion.
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Mar 16, 2022 18:31
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I used to love this show, but I really felt like it should have wrapped with S5. Or if it continued, they should not have gone about resurrecting SMG. Angel was fun, but I also remember abandoning it somewhere only to come back for the finale. Basically it holds a fond spot in my memory, but I like many, have been wary about revisiting it.
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Mar 16, 2022 18:32
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I used to love this show, but I really felt like it should have wrapped with S5. Or if it continued, they should not have gone about resurrecting SMG. Angel was fun, but I also remember abandoning it somewhere only to come back for the finale. Having Buffy the Vampire Slayer the series turn into Faith the Vampire Slayer would have been a little jarring, but unlike Dollhouse where Dushku doesn't seem like she can act some of the roles her Doll was supposed to inhabit, she ALWAYS knew how to play Faith well. I would have been pleased to watch that show about Faith finding redemption in Sunnydale.
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Mar 16, 2022 18:43
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Pan Dulce posted:Having Buffy the Vampire Slayer the series turn into Faith the Vampire Slayer would have been a little jarring, but unlike Dollhouse where Dushku doesn't seem like she can act some of the roles her Doll was supposed to inhabit, she ALWAYS knew how to play Faith well. I would have been pleased to watch that show about Faith finding redemption in Sunnydale. My forever crush on Dushku is entirely because of BtVS  I guess also Bring it On, but I only recognized her there because of Buffy.
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Mar 16, 2022 18:58
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The Notorious ZSB posted:My forever crush on Dushku is entirely because of BtVS I actually really liked her in Tru Calling. Such a shame that got cancelled on a cliffhanger.
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Mar 16, 2022 23:36
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roomtone posted:i don't know why you think this is coming from joss being creepy. cool 20 year olds in 2000 would think liking celine dion was lame. unless i'm forgetting a scene where kathy is listening to indie rock and buffy is disgusted. I said it wasn't his creep tendency, it is what I perceive to be his self-insertion of his opinions about pop-culture tunnelled into teens, and not always just xander. Not liking Cher just feels like a lame 90s dude opinion. I'm not genx, fair, but at best, Cher owns, so I still thought it was a lame target for that episode. My mom is Gen X though but had me super young and we watched the show together when it was new and I don't feel like she would've hated Cher. There are better examples I'm sure that's just the one that pops to mind as a time where I didn't think Buffy was talkin Buffythoughts. Sometimes Buffy is controlled or impersonated by someone else, so ya gotta be on your toes if she's just giving an opinion that sounds weird for her character, rewatching XX years later.
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Mar 17, 2022 00:04
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McSpanky posted:This is why I can't rewatch those shows, Joss was so gross about crossing his (also gross) personal and professional lines that there's no reasonable separation of art and artist possible here. And even if I did, I just don't want to give such a craven abusive manipulative rear end in a top hat any more rent-free space in my head. I remember watching Buffy and Angel during the late 90s and early 00s and liking both of them. I don't think I could do a re-watch because what I've learned about Joss Whedon renders the shows unenjoyable. Except for the Angel Puppet-Time episode which is perfect in every way.
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Mar 17, 2022 00:13
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I've not watched Angel since I finished it, because frankly I remember some of it was a slog, one season especially. But you've reminded me of what a great episode that one was, I might actually rewatch it again.
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Mar 17, 2022 00:45
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My favourite parts of Angel were whenever it was closer to the show I actually wanted all along: Cordelia.
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Mar 17, 2022 00:53
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Something I'm trying to pinpoint is when exactly vampires become a joke on Buffy. I'm on Episode 6 of Season 2 and Buffy herself is still struggling with rando vamps. But I recall later on people like Xander will be staking them. If I had to hazard a guess, probably Season 3 or 4 as by then vamps are old news as main villains. I had forgotten how much of Buffy and Angel is the most blatant teen romance drama (like some other person is flirting with one of them or Buffy stumbles upon Angel and what looks like another girl) except, ya know, with vampires and stuff. It's a bit eye rolly because I know all the cliches now but it's also endearing. I always liked the couple so it has that nostalgic feeling. And of course it helps they are both great actors with great chemistry. I don't know if anybody here plays RPGs but here at the start of Season 2 it suddenly hit me that Merrill in Dragon Age 2 is totally Willow. I've heard the devs themselves admitted Alistair in DA Origins had some Xander in him so it seems very possible there was a direct influence between early season endearing, awkward, rambly Willow and the endearing, awkward, rambly Merrill. I just haven't rewatched Buffy since well before I got into Dragon Age so it took me a while to make the connection, even if the Buffy dialogue type was clearly in effect in the more recent BioWare games. Angel threatening and assaulting some weasel who knows what's up in the underworld, what show did this just turn into? But seriously, a reviewer I read once of Harry Potter attributed its phenomenal success to its ability to capture so many genres. Perhaps you could say the same for Buffy - it's horror, comedy, romance, and now apparently a sort of noir detective show. This is some real nerd power level bullshit I know but Spike is temporarily crippled by some stuff falling on him I remember it being a running gag on Angel that he can be thrown out a window of WR&H's building and fall several stories onto cement and walk it off. Just something that reminded me of old debates I used to have where Angel really seemed to go "bigger" on the power stuff than Buffy. If I have any fairly unpopular Buffy opinions, one of them is my total indifference to Oz. I like Seth Green just fine but Oz as a character never made any impressions on me at all and his relationship with Willow leaves me going "meh." Other than that, S2 has been so much stronger than 1. I just finished the Kendra-two parter and it has been strong from the start to now. Acting, writing, action, all way better. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 03:22
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NikkolasKing posted:Something I'm trying to pinpoint is when exactly vampires become a joke on Buffy. I'm on Episode 6 of Season 2 and Buffy herself is still struggling with rando vamps. But I recall later on people like Xander will be staking them. If I had to hazard a guess, probably Season 3 or 4 as by then vamps are old news as main villains. Speaking of (pencil/paper) RPGs I still have .pdfs of the Buffy/Angel RPGs from Unisystem and all the supplements. Oz... just kind of seemed to be... there. It felt like Joss/whoever wanted him there to not immediately put Willow together with Xander. I dunno. Maybe somebody watched My Stepmother Is An Alien and wanted "lightning" to strike twice or something (haven't seen that movie, don't plan to do so, no idea if there's anything like "lightning" in it but Seth Green and Alyson Hannigan were in it together before Buffy). I much preferred Willow and Tara because Tara came off as much more of a complete person. With Oz it felt like the show just kept adding things to him to try to turn him into one. He's... a guy.... who really likes Willow.... and he's in a band... also he's a werewolf? Honestly the best episode with Oz in it was his last and that's because of the awkward scene when Buffy finally grasps that Willow is in a same-sex relationship now and is clearly scrambling to process this new knowledge about her best friend.
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Mar 17, 2022 03:49
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Oz did nothing for me. Green had some screen chemistry with Hannigan, but they were overshadowed by Xander/Cordy. And then Oz remains an incredibly passive character for most of his time on the show -- it's a shame that Green decided to leave the show just as his character was getting interesting. NikkolasKing posted:Something I'm trying to pinpoint is when exactly vampires become a joke on Buffy. I'm on Episode 6 of Season 2 and Buffy herself is still struggling with rando vamps. But I recall later on people like Xander will be staking them. If I had to hazard a guess, probably Season 3 or 4 as by then vamps are old news as main villains. It's definitely the case by Season 4 -- there are a bunch of opening gags about how little characters are bothered by the vampires, and a lot of the season premier involves subverting and then reinstating this image of vampires as pathetic and unimposing. I'd say it probably happens some time in the third season, when vampires are randomly turning up as unimportant henchpeople.
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Mar 17, 2022 03:55
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I loved Oz as a kid and I remember always being excited when Seth Green was on stuff cause I "knew him from Buffy" but on the rewatch he really doesn't have as strong a part as I remembered. In general I kind of forgot how long they took before she started dating Tara. Her romances with Xander also just, blech. As a kid I had a crush on Willow and thought Xander was just a funny cool nerd guy so I remember rooting for them at one point but drat it just feels weird, just be friends and xander stop being a creep.
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Mar 17, 2022 04:05
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I guess I'm not alone in finding Oz rather uninteresting. It just feels like they wanted some super chill pseudo-stoner character to go with the perpetually awkward and hyper Willow but I don't feel it clicks at all. Season 4 might not be that great but I'm counting the episodes to Tara's introduction. On a happier note, i wanna repost this thing from Reddit. There's a Buffy book that just came out and a lot of reviews of it I'm seeing are negative. It lacks substance, cohesion, horribly biased, etc.. But interviews are interviews and interesting to me. Another appreciation post for SMG! quote:Emma Caulfield: “She’s just so ridiculous…I’m saying it with love. She is so professional, right? Like, humblingly professional…She’s got this intense work ethic, really, like unmatched by anyone I’ve worked with before… And she makes me laugh. She’s such a powerhouse. There’s a literally nothing that girl can’t do. She’s fiercely loyal…“ Whatever Joss Whedon is, Buffy's cast mostly seem like great people.
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Mar 17, 2022 06:48
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Buffy isn't my favourite character or anything but yeah, SMG is asked to do basically everything an actor could be asked to do over the course of the series, even deal with some dodgy writing at times, and she pulls absolutely everything off. There's never a point in the show where I think she could've done something better or differently. Other shows have really strong leads, but Buffy gets possessed by other people, is sometimes a robot, goes from slapstick comedy to catatonically depressed, etc. Pretty impressive. As for Oz - I've always liked him. I think it's cool how they manage to make a guy who intentionally doesn't talk much and is self-aware about how cool everyone thinks he is as likeable as he is. He could've easily been an annoying character, but they balance it out with him being very gentle and understanding. The only person he ever really makes fun of is Xander, who needs it. I always bought Willow being in love with Oz a bit more than I did with her and Tara. Tara and Willow together are fine, and I know that it's a major gay relationship on TV which was big at the time, but since I'm not gay I don't have that emotional investment. I think it's functional with some kind of crappy storylines along the way. I never really understood exactly what Willow loved so much about Tara because she was so mousey, something Willow was trying to get over about herself. I only actually started liking Tara a few episodes before they kill her off, specifically around the time Buffy breaks down in front of her and she tries to help. Her decency and wisdom about things comes through there, and in retrospect was always there like when she talks to Buffy after Joyce dies about her own mum dying. They should have developed her and Buffy's friendship earlier and focused on it more, although that would have risked alienating Willow even more since this is around the time when Willow is at her worst. There's also the issue of retconning that Willow is now 100% gay, which never felt right to me. I think it is basically due to the times and writers/network/whatever not understanding that people can be bisexual. I never got the sense that Willow's relationships with men were aromantic and she just hadn't realised she was gay yet, and they didn't even drop any hints in that direction - I don't count the vampire version of Willow thing, it's just a joke. She was pretty far gone on Xander and Oz, and even talks about having a crush on Giles. There are lines like 'hello, gay now', 'gay, 1999 - present' in the show which make it comes off like a gay switch was hit. roomtone fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 07:18
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I have to say I did not remember that "Ted" is a mid-Season 2 episode. Yes, the episode where a random android is dating Buffy's mom is right after Dru is all powerful again and right before Angelus returns. I forgot they gave an explanation of where he came from at the end but still, weird as hell. Also very uncomfortable as an adult, way moreso than when I saw it as a kid or even a young adult back in 2010 or something. Stuff like this or the invisible girl episode from Season 1 (one of the best eps in Season 1) are very "real" and unsettling, seeing kids being victimized in a "mundane" way. On that note, "Surprise" & "Innocence" remain fantastic. The differences are with me. Once upon a time the Scoobies were cool teenagers, everything a little kid wanted to be. I'm an old man now though and all I see are children suffering and hurting. Every sweet, romantic scene between Buffy and Angel had a voice in my head reminding me what was to come And it did come. And it was really well done. And my heart aches worse than it ever did before. I hope that all makes sense. Let's all go away happy , though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkykWGkv0Mg One of those absolutely unforgettable Buffy moments. Also I wonder if that thing she is holding is even based on a real gun? I know nothing of firearms. Here's an unpopular opinion: Angel Season 5 is good, Illyria is not. I was reminded of her because of the most silly and nerdy Buffy debate - "who would win, full power Glory, Illyria or Jasmine?" We see none of these characters at these levels but it's been going on in the fandom forever. But forgetting all that and just looking at the characters, Glory is the only likable one. People really go crazy for Illyria and I just don't understand it. She's a sexed up Fred and...that's about it. Didn't find her interesting or funny. Then again, I didn't even really like Fred terribly much. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 12:58
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NikkolasKing posted:"who would win, full power Glory, Illyria or Jasmine?" Glory is a Hell Dimension God, Illyria is an Old One, and Jasmine is a Powers That Be primordial being. I'm assuming primordial beings are more powerful than Gods.
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Mar 17, 2022 15:22
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FilthyImp posted:That's a great one. So I used to debate this a ton back in the day but my memory of the facts are all pretty sketchy. Especially since, as I noted, we never see any of them in their full power so it's all speculation based on dialogue. Like, a Power is a rival to the Senior Partners of WR&H and they are crazy powerful my vague memory is telling me. Now Illyria is dismissive of them but, contrary to what some people interpreted this as, I'm pretty sure her line is immediately followed up with something like "well that was then, this is now." Her dismissal of them is not saying Old Ones are way stronger than the current Senior Partners, she's just severely out of the loop on how strong they are now. So we can kinda guess at Jasmine's power based on how strong the SP are. Hell God Glory is trickier. Took two other gods to just banish her. And uh...that might be all we know. Illyria's hype rests on Old Ones hype. But all I remember - which is admittedly not much - is "they're a cut above regular demons." Okay, so are gods. I don't recall getting a whole lot more in the way of details on her feats as an Old One than we get for Hell God Glory. Here's a much more interesting (and concrete) fight for me: Glory vs. The Beast. Undoubtedly the two physically strongest and toughest enemies on either show. It be a slobberknocker. But yeah, I'll come back to try and argue this more when I get done rewatching both shows. Some things you just never grow out of and I admit power level debates is one of those things for me. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 15:55
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roomtone posted:I mean fair enough but I think Buffy is an example of somewhere that you can separate art from artist because, outside of a probably accurate read on Xander's general presence being due to Joss Whedon liking that kind of person, there's very little directly in the text of the show which reads as 'being an abusive dickhead is cool!'. There's plenty saying the opposite. Even with Xander, he DOES get told off for it most of the time by the other characters like Willow and Buffy, he doesn't win in the end when he acts like this. I feel completely the opposite to this post. What's going on in the background, in the creators minds, their intent, how they view the world, it WILL leak into the show. And if the creators are gross as gently caress I'm not going to watch their poo poo. I'm never going to watch Last Tango in Paris. I had to stop watching Basic Instinct for the first time because even if you weren't how aware how awful Verhoeven was to Sharon Stone, you can SEE it, the basic wolf like disregard for her autonomity just to salaciously exploit her body. And honestly, thinking back, you can see Whedon's hosed up notions on women and romance in his show. Yeah this is a girl, but look she fights stuff! Every guy wants her, and her life is arranged around whether or not she will get with them or whatever. But her personality is defined by kicking rear end and looking good. There are other voices in there that leaven that impression, and Angel is set further away, but there is some gross gender poo poo there too. And it's worth wondering why. And, I have to be honest, that poo poo you posted about third hand information is also kinda gross. It's something out of 2012. "Often misremembered"? How do YOU know?
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Mar 17, 2022 16:14
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Shageletic posted:I feel completely the opposite to this post. What's going on in the background, in the creators minds, their intent, how they view the world, it WILL leak into the show. And if the creators are gross as gently caress I'm not going to watch their poo poo. I'm never going to watch Last Tango in Paris. I had to stop watching Basic Instinct for the first time because even if you weren't how aware how awful Verhoeven was to Sharon Stone, you can SEE it, the basic wolf like disregard for her autonomity just to salaciously exploit her body. I don't know about those two movies, but what's going on in the background of a creators mind unrelated to their work isn't necessarily present in the work at all. There's an old author called Knut Hamsun who wrote a good book called Hunger about being homeless and starving. Turned out he was a huge racist and Nazi party supporter. No trace of that in the book that I read. That's an old example but that's what I mean. On the other hand, I don't watch Woody Allen movies because they are about parts of his personality which I know I don't like. I turned off that one with Larry David in it because it was bad and later, when I heard Woody Allen is a paedo, the whole thing with Larry David dating a teenager in that made sense. It doesn't have to be as stark as these two things. Obviously things bleed into the writing in more subtle ways, but it's usually harder to pin direct blame on 1 personality for being hosed up and making a hosed up thing. quote:And honestly, thinking back, you can see Whedon's hosed up notions on women and romance in his show. Yeah this is a girl, but look she fights stuff! Every guy wants her, and her life is arranged around whether or not she will get with them or whatever. But her personality is defined by kicking rear end and looking good. Buffy's life isn't arranged around whether she will get with guys or not. There are periods of the show when she's single and not looking, she always has other stuff going on - world to save, family or all kinds of stuff. Yeah she's got relationships on the the young adult drama show and they add people to the cast for her to have them with. I don't see the problem with that. You're reducing the show down to the elevator pitch to make it sound worse than it is. There are loads of conservative social attitudes and poorly portrayed groups outside of their white middle class comfort zone all throughout Angel and Buffy, though. I've brought up the bi-erasure stuff with Willow. The failure to integrate Gunn in Angel, the only non-white cast member across both shows, and dumbass treatment of his friends/community is another one. Don't have anything against talking about this stuff. I just don't see much evidence of Joss Whedon's abusive behaviour (that i know of) in the actual shows. There are places where we know his behaviour has derailed what the show was supposed to be doing - like Cordelia being written off of Angel, but she isn't treated like poo poo on the show by the other characters who are then rewarded for it or anything even approaching that. Maybe you do see some more insidious personal sexism coming directly from Joss in how the women on Buffy are portrayed but your characterisation of the show is off. quote:And, I have to be honest, that poo poo you posted about third hand information is also kinda gross. It's something out of 2012. "Often misremembered"? How do YOU know? Not misremembered by the people involved obviously. I meant the people commenting online about what they heard. Anyway, it's fine if you and other people disagree. I know I'm arguing against the popular mentality with this stuff. I don't want to keep going on about it, my intention at first was actually to move away from this kind of talk but I've hosed that up. roomtone fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 16:58
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FWIW, it just sounds like it's easier for you to separate the art from the artist than some other goons. I don't think there's a moral right or wrong to that. I also find it pretty easy to separate the two, particularly since, you know, there's no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism. If I was to only watch ethically produced, fair trade media I'd have to throw out pretty much everything produced under the Hollywood system. It's not like I'm financially supporting anyone involved in making this show by watching my second hand DVD copies either. So, yeah, I acknowledge that the production was hosed up and I move on. I don't see much point in me, personally, ruminating over the issue.
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Mar 17, 2022 17:21
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NikkolasKing posted:So I used to debate this a ton back in the day but my memory of the facts are all pretty sketchy. Especially since, as I noted, we never see any of them in their full power so it's all speculation based on dialogue. Illyria dismisses the Wolf, Ram and Hart as minor forces in her time. Likely because they had no direct interest in the affairs of the time, or because they had limited presence-- Jasmine recognizes she would lose a large amount of power and memory were she to just blip down to the Mortal level. It's interesting that Glory and Jasmine are essentially invulnerable save for people that tether them to our realm. They also need to suck brains/life from people in this dimension. Old Ones just seem to be incredibly old, powerful creatures. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 17:35
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Sidebar: Illyria's essentially genderqueer, or something similar, yeah?
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Mar 17, 2022 17:38
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Whedon aside, while I think it's fair to criticise the show for being almost completely white, and for the simplistic feminist message, at the end of the day the show started in 1997, and tv was just a lot more white, straight and simplistic back then. I don't think the show was a feminist masterpiece, but I think it did a lot of good for a lot of marginalized groups, and that helped other shows do even better.
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Mar 17, 2022 18:38
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Oasx posted:Whedon aside, while I think it's fair to criticise the show for being almost completely white, and for the simplistic feminist message, at the end of the day the show started in 1997, and tv was just a lot more white, straight and simplistic back then. Even though Willow switching from all straight to all gay is silly, I did appreciate that her relationship with Tara is taken and treated seriously within the show. Recall that the comparable relationship show would have been Will and Grace and how FABULOUS gay guys were.
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Mar 17, 2022 19:17
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My Buffy Unpopular Opinion is they should've dropped Harriet the Spy. In the initial run I missed a few episodes and my mom had to explain to me why they're all going to keep pretending like Harriet the Spy is her sister. On a rewatch I "get it" but still don't like it and don't think it added anything.NikkolasKing posted:Let's all go away happy , though I love when the badguys scamper off like Sailor Moon villains. roomtone posted:There's also the issue of retconning that Willow is now 100% gay, which never felt right to me. I think it is basically due to the times and writers/network/whatever not understanding that people can be bisexual. I never got the sense that Willow's relationships with men were aromantic and she just hadn't realised she was gay yet, and they didn't even drop any hints in that direction - I don't count the vampire version of Willow thing, it's just a joke. She was pretty far gone on Xander and Oz, and even talks about having a crush on Giles. There are lines like 'hello, gay now', 'gay, 1999 - present' in the show which make it comes off like a gay switch was hit. I'm not gay but I very much got the feeling her relationships with men before were unnatural, forced, merely compelled by the fact it was essentially a highschool dating drama show with monsters sometimes. I don't believe they thought things through far enough to claim they always knew she was gay, but they picked the right character for it because I wasn't buying her b/g ships.
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Mar 17, 2022 21:21
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NikkolasKing posted:
It's not so much based on a real gun as it is a real weapon.
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Mar 17, 2022 21:45
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That actor actually got blown up for real, but he was two days from being cancelled anyway.
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Mar 17, 2022 21:58
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The Ted episode is indeed pretty disturbing for seeing Buffy basically get an abusive step-father. The existence of perfectly human appearing androids has always been one of the weirder bits of the show though.
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Mar 17, 2022 22:10
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banned from Starbucks posted:Imagine telling Alyson Hannigan "Actually youre just kind of a frumpy dork in high school maybe ugly yourself up a bit and put some pounds on to look the part" Could you imagine? quote:Q. We read that you actually had to gain weight for your part as Kaylee on “Firefly,” what is the story behind that?
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Mar 17, 2022 23:15
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NjXEDyzFsk Buffy is not a show I generally think of when thinking on great TV show music but Season 2 at the very least has a couple unforgettable tracks, this being one of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM2o4AnpLTk "Passion" was the first episode ever directed by Michael Gershman. You can do a lot worse than making your debut with probably one of the most unforgettable episodes in an iconic TV program. Everything about the episode is flawless, really. Except maybe the dialogue between Jenny adn Angelus about how he got into the school because that never comes up before or after and it's a public building which vamps have no problem entering. But who cares! Peak acting from all involved, we got a rare Badass + Dad Giles all in one go, and I gotta mention the music again because a great musical score makes everything better. Given her brief time on the show, Jenny Calendar was a pretty memorable character, helped some by the fact Giles never really has a love interest again throughout all the seasons. I recall some vague weirdness with Joyce but that was all gag stuff. I'm not giving out episode by episode scores like I've done for rewatches of shorter shows, like 20 minute cartoons or whatever, but Passion is probably the first contender for 10/10. Everything is great from start to finish. And it doesn't leave us with absolute despair, we still have hope in the form of one floppy disk. My only vague criticism is Xander needs to drop the silly way of phrasing stuff when poo poo is dramatic like this. By all means encourage Giles to go after Angelus or whatever, but saying "faster pussycat" is just...inappropriate for the circumstances. I just finished Season 2. There's so much I did not remember about "Becoming" I've been waiting for when Joyce would finally learn of Buffy's identity. I did not remember that and Buffy getting kicked out all happened in this episode. Part 2 is just one crushing blow after another. Speaking of which, another big thing I did not remember was Xander's lying to Buffy about what Willow said, what she was doing. That is....I can't recall if this is ever exposed but if it is, I can't blame Buffy for never forgiving him. Xander crossed a line here with his vindictiveness and pettiness. What he did to Buffy - hell, what he did to Angel - is too much. So Season 2 was a lot longer, a lot more to try and remember and process. Thinking on the main points: -Xander and Cordelia is funny and can become genuinely sweet -Giles and Angel probably tie for Most Improved Character Award due to their backstories and being able to do more things -The Fish Boy episode, if it deserves to exist at all (a big if) should not be sandwiched there before the big climax. I remember just skipping it entirely when I bought the S2 DVD way back. -Another unforgettable S2 track.. I can't recall any super memorable music after this season. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Q80e487SU -Spike as a villain is 110% overshadowed by Angelus and even Dru. He doesn't succeed at much of anything and is nowhere near as intimidating as them. -You don't have to tell me but with how heartbreaking Becoming Pt 2 was, I couldn't help but think "....are there any happy season finales?" The Gift is obviously tragic. Prophecy Girl was pretty happy. My dim memories of S3's and 4's finales ae mostly positive...? S6 and 7 are the finales of Buffy Season 6 and 7, so happiness is not allowed. So I guess it 's about half-and-half in my memory at present. Overall, I felt S2 held up remarkably well. Everything was substantially better across the board. And if my memory of S3 is accurate, it only continues to get better.
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Mar 18, 2022 18:54
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quote:-You don't have to tell me but with how heartbreaking Becoming Pt 2 was, I couldn't help but think "....are there any happy season finales?" The Gift is obviously tragic. Prophecy Girl was pretty happy. My dim memories of S3's and 4's finales ae mostly positive...? S6 and 7 are the finales of Buffy Season 6 and 7, so happiness is not allowed. So I guess it 's about half-and-half in my memory at present. i think most of the actual endings of finales are positive. 1, 3, 6 and 7 all end on happy or hopeful notes with all problems pretty much resolved or on their way. 4 is a weird dream episode. 2 and 5 are the only actual tragic endings, i think. 3's is probably the most unambiguously resolved, they could have ended the show there and it would've been complete. glad they didn't but they could have.
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Mar 18, 2022 19:10
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