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escape artist posted:That is a weird take because that storyline took place over 3 scenes and 3 seasons. First season (third season) - she buys an 8-ball; next season it's briefly mentioned she is turning tricks; the final season she has conquered her addiction and gives a nice speech at NA. That was a really good article. Jon Bernthal's role was obviously the showcase, but Darrell Britt-Gibson was a lot more magnetic. Loved every scene he was in.
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Jun 1, 2022 00:50
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Eason the Fifth posted:That was a really good article. Jon Bernthal's role was obviously the showcase, but Darrell Britt-Gibson was a lot more magnetic. Loved every scene he was in. Yeah, I feel the same about Britt-Gibson. I see two books about the GTTF. One is the book she show is named after, "We Own This City," and the other is called "I Got a Monster" User reviews on amazon are identical. By chance has anyone read both and can recommend one over the other?
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Jun 1, 2022 01:06
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Oooookayyy. So I watched this documentary about Sean Suiter and to be honest I was a little baffled at the portrayal of his death on the show. I know that documentaries can be selective and biased but, after watching it, I was scratching my head. WOtC seemed to paint it as cut and dried and according to a Tweet someone posted up thread from Simon, he feels the same way. But something doesn't smell right. now.. I already pointed out that this struck me as a crazy plan but acknowledged that Sean was pressed for time and up against a wall. So OK. Worst thing he's looking at is maybe losing his job. There's also a lot of easier ways to stage this and Suiter would know what investigators would look for. And from the other side, what was he gonna give up that all the rest of the cops and the bail bondsman guy weren't already singing about? I don't see what makes him such a unique threat that needs to be taken out if we're going with that he was rubbed out by the BPD and I kind of agree that there just wasn't enough time for someone to get in and out and pull it off. It might sound weird but that "partner", to me, sounded rehearsed and a little phony. The show nor the doc ever really delves into him and I have no reason to suspect him of anything beyond being a cop and the last person to see Sean alive but the doc shows it as him asking Sean to track down a lead and come with, not the other way around like the show presents. If he was taken there instead of taking someone else there, I can see it being a set up but the only person that could have done it would have been the partner guy, right? Or is it possible it was just a loving accident?
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Jun 1, 2022 01:53
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I was really skeptical of this but the old actors from The Wire playing new roles or coming back and playing their old ones have hit it out of the park. I also love the way the episodes themselves are organized, while a bit confusing at first, starts to build the story together piece by piece as time goes on. I can't think of a better term for that other than discography. It's well put together, imo.
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Jun 1, 2022 01:58
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It really is quite baffling. The idea of him planning to shoot himself in the head and just hoping it's declared a homicide is kinda crazy. He knows as well as anyone how the police investigate shootings, he had to know there was a great chance that they'd declare it a suicide and his family would not get his pension and benefits. And it's pretty clear that he fired the first two shots up into the air.
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Jun 1, 2022 02:00
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MrMojok posted:It really is quite baffling. The idea of him planning to shoot himself in the head and just hoping it's declared a homicide is kinda crazy. He knows as well as anyone how the police investigate shootings, he had to know there was a great chance that they'd declare it a suicide and his family would not get his pension and benefits. And it's pretty clear that he fired the first two shots up into the air. I just read an article where Simon says (heh) that he thinks Suiter killed himself but that's just his opinion. Sorry Iost the link but then what was that Tweet at Sean's wife all about or did I mis-attribute that? I saw one post quoting a tweet telling her that it was a FACT it was a suicide and I thought it was from David Simon.
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Jun 1, 2022 02:09
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MrMojok posted:It really is quite baffling. The idea of him planning to shoot himself in the head and just hoping it's declared a homicide is kinda crazy. He knows as well as anyone how the police investigate shootings, he had to know there was a great chance that they'd declare it a suicide and his family would not get his pension and benefits. And it's pretty clear that he fired the first two shots up into the air. I read it that he knows how police investigate shootings of other cops and are disinclined to label something a suicide out in the field even if things don't add up.
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Jun 1, 2022 02:13
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Am I remembering things wrong, or was this the bleakest ending David Simon has done for a series so far? From what I remember of Treme, The Wire, and The Deuce, they have endings that summarize as "there's a bunch of hosed up stuff in society, lots of grey areas, but there's some people trying to make it better", whereas the everyone stood up and clapped and "it's your problem now" makes the message from this one "the whole system is hosed, it's never gonna change, and anyone who tries to change it gets pushed out or chewed up".
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Jun 1, 2022 02:43
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For a "the system is hosed" kind of show and given that he had to stick to true events, I thought the ending was pretty happy all things considered. Jenkins is stuck in prison with his own delusions and everyone there hates him because he's a cop. Sucks for him, but he deserves it and this specific circumstance for someone so hung up on his reputation as a good guy has got to be his personal hell. Hooray!
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Jun 1, 2022 02:51
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I saw that (especially with the speech) as more of a "What Jenkins did was horrible, but he doesn't think he did anything wrong, and everyone who should/could have stopped him early on didn't do poo poo". For me, combining that with the cards explaining what happened to the mayor, police chief, and city after the events of the series made sent a pretty strong "this is just a cycle, and it's not getting better" message, but I may have been reading into it a bit. azflyboy fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Jun 1, 2022 |
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Jun 1, 2022 03:03
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Pretty weird for Simon et al to show a character's fantasy like Jenkins' at the end. Just doesn't seem like their style. It through me for a loop at first.
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Jun 1, 2022 03:03
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I think the thing that makes this the most bleak is there’s no personal victories. There’s none of the growth we saw in Bubbles, Carver and Cutty. Granted it’s much shorter but even some of his other shorter miniseries had some moving character arcs. Edit. Spoilers just in case someone here hasn’t seen The Wire.
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Jun 1, 2022 03:04
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theblackw0lf posted:I think the thing that makes this the most bleak is there’s no personal victories. There’s none of the growth we saw in Bubbles, Carver and Cutty. Granted it’s much shorter but even some of his other shorter miniseries had some moving character arcs. Shee-it, I only remember how one of those arcs actually ends up. Guess I gotta rewatch The Wire.
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Jun 1, 2022 03:14
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deoju posted:Pretty weird for Simon et al to show a character's fantasy like Jenkins' at the end. Just doesn't seem like their style. It through me for a loop at first. I saw that as the best way to get across the point that Jenkins thinks he did the right thing (and exactly what he was told to), since adding a scene of them outright saying "I did nothing wrong!" in another context could be tricky from a liable standpoint, since I think everyone who survives to the end of the series is still alive.
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Jun 1, 2022 03:21
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I laughed when the bail bondsman guy immediately rolled over and also told the cops where the extra drugs they’d missed were. I guess that’s why he’s the only one who’s already back on the outside.
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Jun 1, 2022 03:26
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He'd probably seen how the system works enough to know that cooperating was probably his best bet, since the feds didn't really care about him all that much, other than as a way to get to the GTTF.
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Jun 1, 2022 03:29
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He has a website with "We Own This City" merch https://www.doubledbailbonds.net/
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Jun 1, 2022 05:08
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Mu Zeta posted:He has a website with "We Own This City" merch He got to, man. This is America.
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Jun 1, 2022 05:20
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He can’t be a bail bondsman anymore so he’s got to make money somehow.
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Jun 1, 2022 05:23
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Episode 6: In his book, Homicide, David Simon recounts something he heard from the homicide cops over and over again: dumbass criminals always think they can talk their way out of it. That they're so smart they can find the magic words to convince everyone that the mountains of evidence stacked up against them somehow don't exist. That all the witnesses are lying. That they're innocent. And it never works, and the dumbasses go to jail. And here is supercop Wayne Jenkins doing the exact same poo poo. I thought it was a neat detail. Even though he should've known better, in the end Wayne Jenkins was yet another dumbass criminal who tried the same poo poo he's seen a thousand times from the other side. E: and then Hirsl as well. Jesus loving christ you dumbasses. I agree that the ending montage was amazing and hilarious in a sad way. Cutting back and forth between the high and mighty talking about zero tolerance policies for corruption and new starts, and then text screens saying they were almost immediately busted for corruption themselves is just ... gently caress, man. Rotten from the ground to the top. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jun 1, 2022 |
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Jun 1, 2022 16:10
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Yeah but also those guys are cops so right there they have a +5 I guess career criminals kind of do to since they get away with it until they don't but they don't have that badge an the support of the public shielding them from the poo poo they get up to.
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Jun 1, 2022 17:57
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Orange Devil posted:Does anybody in this thread actually believe the Baltimore PD is one Consent Decree away from being an institution that does more good than bad? Come on, get loving real. I'm curious if the final episode(s) changed your mind at all about Simon's politics. He laid it on pretty thick by the end and gives the lie to what you're saying above. The degree to which Simon is suggesting that US police departments are irreparably broken was very satisfying to me. It really feels like Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Eric Garner et. al. made Simon give up any hope of reform. Police shootings of civilians wasn't really a focus of The Wire, and I think even Simon would admit now that The Wire was too kind on the BPD. Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jun 1, 2022 |
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Jun 1, 2022 18:35
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So nobody has any opinions one way or the other about Suiter: suicide v murder? Or have not many people watched The Slow Hustle documentary? I had a completely different takeaway from the show than I did from the doc, that gave me more second thoughts about it. I made a semi effort post about my thoughts but am still digesting things and reading about it. Seems that Simon is all in the suicide angle but I dunno. The WORST Suiter seemed to be facing was losing his job, which one can recover from, and compared to the rest of the GTTF, he was going to get off easy. I don't see how just discovering the heroin that some other cop planted would entirely do him in and the small stack of cash he did (or did not) take was a drop in the loving bucket. But, on the other hand, who would be so terrified of his testimony as to want him dead? If they did, how'd they know he'd be in that alley unless New Partner of the Day was in on it? Depending on who you believe, it was Suiter's idea to hit the alley while the other guy wanted to interview a hooker, but WOtC portrayed that the other way around. And was it confirmed that's him in the blurry street cam footage behind the van? Sean didn't know a whole lot compared to the others that were already spilling their guts, though he may not have known that at the time (what they were saying) and was making GBS threads bricks about the stealing and the drug plant but still. Also, he was working homicide and had been for some time so it's not like plainclothes would sweat him much moving forward. There's no real revenge angle here. But still one hell of coincidence that he gets offed the day before a grand jury appearance out in a random alley doing god knows what with a "new" partner before suddenly becoming concerned about a black guy in a black jacket with a white stripe on it. Is everyone walking in an alley a hot target? If it was a hit, it had to be the partner he didn't normally work with luring him into it and getting him out there but that makes little sense unless that guy had a stake in all these shenanigans somehow. Was that dude's body cam on the whole time or just the poo poo we were shown? Does it corroborate his story? poo poo, that was long. TL/DR: the Bold Parts
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Jun 1, 2022 19:14
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My opinion on Simon's politics comes primarily from what the man says on social media and in interviews rather than his work. I said from the start that his work consistently gives the impression that he really gets it, which makes it all the more surprising when he reveals that he doesn't. As for the final episode, the most interesting scenes related to this was the one talking about Holder and the one talking about the drug war, I think. There was quite some bitching about the incoming Trump administration about to gently caress everything up during the show, but at the end of the day drat near everything that happened happened during Obama's terms. And it is unfortunately impossible to imagine any other D presidential candidate ending the drug war either. So all the bitching about Trump should get some perspective that when it comes down to the fundamental causes, there's no real difference. As for the drug war, maybe the characters views here aren't Simons views, but they sure sounded like they were. The character says the US needs to admit that the drug war was lost a long time ago. Right after listing why declaring a war on drugs is a horrible idea because in a war people are expected to die and that's seen as ok, creates an us-vs-them attitude, militarizes the police etc etc. So uhh, admitting defeat in that war seems like missing the point. To go back to Carlin, have you ever noticed how the only metaphor Americans have to address social problems is to declare a war on it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lncLOEqc9Rw The more important point, to me, is that addressing social problems isn't a goddamn war at all. The drug war is utter bullshit on a conceptual level. So if it's not a war, admitting you lost the non-existent war is still you buying into the utterly bullshit framing. There's no war on drugs. There's a society where a staggering percentage of the population requires staggering amounts of drugs to continue functioning "normally". The same society which sees a staggering amount of violence, with perhaps random mass-violence such as mass (school) shootings as the most stand-out example. The same society which consistently places profits before people and which has a highly efficient machine to make slaves out of citizens to really maximize profits. The same society which continues to be racist and classist in who is slaves and who is owners. Failing to get rid of drugs doesn't mean you lost the war on drugs. That supposes the "war" was declared for its stated purpose rather than as a fig leaf excuse to feed the machine of Capital with slaves. The only real war is the class war, and the upper class stays winning. That said, I read on Wikipedia that Simon has a project in the works about the American volunteers in the Spanish Civil War. I hope that becomes a reality because I am very curious what he has to say about that. The blurb says it's about "volunteers from the United States who wanted to help the Spanish Republic overcome fascism", but the reality of the SCW is also very much that it was people fighting to overcome *capitalism*.
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Jun 1, 2022 19:18
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I appreciate and agree with your assessment, but I don’t see how that differs from what the show is saying. You can argue about the semantics of calling it “the war on drugs” and perpetuating that framing but I think that’s really missing the forest for the trees. At a base level he agrees with you.
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Jun 1, 2022 19:32
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Orange Devil posted:As for the drug war, maybe the characters views here aren't Simons views, but they sure sounded like they were. The character says the US needs to admit that the drug war was lost a long time ago. Right after listing why declaring a war on drugs is a horrible idea because in a war people are expected to die and that's seen as ok, creates an us-vs-them attitude, militarizes the police etc etc. So uhh, admitting defeat in that war seems like missing the point. They 100% are his views. The characters may not be saying those things because Simon wanted them to say his views, because his views aren't unique or rare in any way and it's entirely likely that the people in the book said those same things. But in any case even in The Corner he says pretty much the same thing, but of course at far greater length and with more nuance because he can take 10 pages to get his point across. Those ideas weren't AFAIK especially new even in 1997 when the book was released, so people have been saying this poo poo for decades now. And I agree with Jewmanji that you're maybe getting a bit too semantical about this and ultimately you agree on everything except the term the characters used. We don't have time machines, so we can't go back in time before assholes started calling this poo poo the War on Drugs. We can't unmake that term. What we CAN do is admit it isn't working, that it's creating all those problems (and due to them is by definition unwinnable) and call it quits. And if we're living with the War on Drugs metaphor, then you could call that act "saying we lost the War on Drugs". Incidentally I'm sure this is already old news to everyone, but The Corner is an amazing book and 100% worth reading. Homicide as well.
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Jun 1, 2022 19:53
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Jewmanji posted:I appreciate and agree with your assessment, but I don’t see how that differs from what the show is saying. You can argue about the semantics of calling it “the war on drugs” and perpetuating that framing but I think that’s really missing the forest for the trees. At a base level he agrees with you. No he doesn't. The base level is that I am a socialist and see the root cause of the problem as capitalism and that none of these problems can ever be solved without abolishing capitalism. Simon straight up does not believe that, unless he's come around to it recently. Shaman Tank Spec posted:And I agree with Jewmanji that you're maybe getting a bit too semantical about this and ultimately you agree on everything except the term the characters used. We don't have time machines, so we can't go back in time before assholes started calling this poo poo the War on Drugs. We can't unmake that term. What we CAN do is admit it isn't working, that it's creating all those problems (and due to them is by definition unwinnable) and call it quits. And if we're living with the War on Drugs metaphor, then you could call that act "saying we lost the War on Drugs". But it IS working. The war on drugs is doing what it is supposed to do, which is deliver slaves to capital. That's the whole point of the whole thing. Or did y'all think those with power were suddenly concerned about public health? Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jun 1, 2022 |
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Jun 1, 2022 20:05
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Incidentally I'm sure this is already old news to everyone, but The Corner is an amazing book and 100% worth reading. Homicide as well. Homicide is an interesting beast since it was written before Clinton's police mandate in '94 that really kicked these issues into overdrive so it feels like a view into an entirely different world and helps explain why he was more sympathetic to the force 30 years ago.
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Jun 1, 2022 20:47
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The Slow Hustle review: A cop died. A+. No notes. Didn’t watch
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Jun 1, 2022 21:43
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BiggerBoat posted:So nobody has any opinions one way or the other about Suiter: suicide v murder? Or have not many people watched The Slow Hustle documentary? I commented above about how strange it is. There's three things that could have happened with Suiter, and in my mind there are serious problems with all three of them. Obviously one of those is the truth, but there are bizarre aspects to all three. Simon is clearly on the suicide theory side of things, and he's sure of it. He's extremely active on twitter and he's taken a lot of flak for it on there. I believe he said he's going to write and essay going into detail on why he (and presumably Pelecanos) are so certain about this.
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Jun 1, 2022 22:14
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Orange Devil posted:No he doesn't. The base level is that I am a socialist and see the root cause of the problem as capitalism and that none of these problems can ever be solved without abolishing capitalism. Simon straight up does not believe that, unless he's come around to it recently. What about this show indicates that? Sorry but you just saying "some tweets of his I saw" isn't persuasive. He's not a reformist, he believes the system is irreparably broken. Doesn't sound like a classic liberal to me. I've heard him refer to himself as a democratic socialist years ago, but again whether he considers himself progressive, DSA, or further left, I don't see how that's manifested in the show at all. Where is he saying that the problem is narrower than capitalism? Like, did you watch Season 2 of The Wire? Also, like, Simon isn't providing a roadmap to solving these issues with this show. He's diagnosing a problem- the BPD is hopelessly beyond salvage. I think that no matter where he fits on the ideological spectrum, we can all agree with the shows thesis. He's not making any sweeping claims about how to fix it, he's just diagnosing. Earlier you said you feel like his position was that the BPD was one consent decree away from constructive reform. Do you see how the show clearly expresses the opposite? I just feel like you've staked out a position based on your gut instinct but aren't actually reading the text. Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Jun 1, 2022 |
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Jun 1, 2022 22:38
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Orange Devil posted:No he doesn't. The base level is that I am a socialist and see the root cause of the problem as capitalism and that none of these problems can ever be solved without abolishing capitalism. Simon straight up does not believe that, unless he's come around to it recently. Socialist societies still have brutal cops and institutional racism. The least lovely carceral systems in the world are all in countries with democratic governments and market economies. Who do you think you're convincing by saying nothing can change under capitalism when the situation has gotten several times worse in living memory? It's easy to sit on the sidelines of every issue but socialism isn't a magic spell and your sanctimonious attitude isn't winning anyone over.
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Jun 1, 2022 22:56
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Incidentally I'm sure this is already old news to everyone, but The Corner is an amazing book and 100% worth reading. Homicide as well. Absolutely. Homicide is a very, very, very good book, but The Corner is absolutely incredible and a must-read.
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Jun 1, 2022 23:47
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Im sure the cops in north korea are super niceMu Zeta posted:He has a website with "We Own This City" merch 
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Jun 2, 2022 01:00
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Despera posted:Im sure the cops in north korea are super nice North Korea isn’t socialist.
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Jun 2, 2022 01:02
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MrMojok posted:Once you guys have watched the final episode, there is an HBO thing you might want to watch. Don't click this spoiler until you've watched the last episode Thanks for this. The show seemed to go out of its way to show that Suiter killed himself. He looked like he was bracing himself and breathing heavily. Not sure how accurate it is. He did pace but it seems to be painting things in one way.
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Jun 2, 2022 02:49
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Randallteal posted:Socialist societies still have brutal cops and institutional racism. The least lovely carceral systems in the world are all in countries with democratic governments and market economies. Who do you think you're convincing by saying nothing can change under capitalism when the situation has gotten several times worse in living memory? It's easy to sit on the sidelines of every issue but socialism isn't a magic spell and your sanctimonious attitude isn't winning anyone over. There's a reason why 70 percent of scientists in Cuba are women, or why the Communist Party made such inroads in sharecroppers circles in Alabama before they were decimated in the 40s. Capitalism relies on racism and sexism and bigotry to function.
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Jun 2, 2022 03:01
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The fact he had his (inexperienced) partner stand in a specific spot, then went behind a van and paced for a minute (caught by a security camera) fired two shots in the air, and was hit in his right temple (initially misreported as his left) all suggest suicide to me.
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Jun 2, 2022 04:21
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Shageletic posted:There's a reason why 70 percent of scientists in Cuba are women, or why the Communist Party made such inroads in sharecroppers circles in Alabama before they were decimated in the 40s. Capitalism relies on racism and sexism and bigotry to function. Im sure those people clinging to their rafts are going in their head "poo poo 70% of our scientists are women." An icepick made inroads into troskys skull in the 40s. Third sentence is a great argument for capitalisms immortality though. Id love for some example where a society did not have cops abusing their powers though.
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Jun 2, 2022 04:46
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There's a wonderful song called TPAA by a band called The Urban Pioneers, it's available on YouTube and whatever music streaming platform you use. It's about how the police are assholes wherever you go.
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Jun 2, 2022 06:32
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