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Sorry for going quiet so close to deadline, have been trying to get this ordered in my head. The doctor claim is...like, the trouble with that claim is that anybody counterclaiming is certain to be killed. But again, assuming we started with only 3 scum (4 just seems like too many!), a like-for-like doesn't seem that bad, to pay for only going down to 1 scum. With that in mind, I'm imploring anybody with a doctor counter-claim to reveal themselves, and will not vote for Plastic if one isn't forthcoming. Bucnasti posted:This throws a big wrench at my idea that GW was doctor and protected Plastic on N2. Oh, yeah, sorry, I thought I said - no, I'm not the doctor, my theory was legitimately based on inferring somebody else's actions.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:03
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If Plastic is scum, we extremely don't want the real doctor to counter-claim If Plastic isn't scum and is indeed town doctor, the mafia would 100% shoot him tonight. The doctor is one of town's most powerful roles, it gives town extra days if they guess right. No amount of soft/social influence is as powerful as "If this person picks the right name, town gets another 48 hours to find scum"
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Jul 8, 2022 19:09
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If you think the first claim is likely to be a lie, and you were already leaning Plastic, why are you calling for a counterclaim when you know that's suicidal for a town Doctor? Losing a Doctor isn't necessarily a 1-1 trade, because Doctors can stop the nightkill. You're way overthinking this, Green Wing.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:09
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Besides, we still don't actually know if that missed nightkill was from a Doctor or not. We're just assuming that, because it's the most likely explanation. If that's not true, you'll be waiting forever for something that never comes.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:11
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Also god dammit Bucnasti I only just came around to the idea of you being town, and you're here making posts that ping me again  Anyway, yeah, Caffeinated Jerkoff posted:If Plastic is scum, we extremely don't want the real doctor to counter-claim So if he's lying scum, then a counterclaim is like-for-like exchange? and if he's telling the truth, we lose the doctor and somebody else overnight? So that's considerably worse? Sorry, what am I not getting here? It seems like that claim ought to be given more weight.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:11
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NeverHelm posted:If you think the first claim is likely to be a lie, and you were already leaning Plastic, why are you calling for a counterclaim when you know that's suicidal for a town Doctor? Losing a Doctor isn't necessarily a 1-1 trade, because Doctors can stop the nightkill. You're way overthinking this, Green Wing. wait, when did I say the first claim is likely to be a lie?
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Jul 8, 2022 19:12
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NeverHelm posted:Besides, we still don't actually know if that missed nightkill was from a Doctor or not. We're just assuming that, because it's the most likely explanation. If that's not true, you'll be waiting forever for something that never comes. So, what else could it be? I can only think of two things - either town has a roleblocker, in which case they should know who one scum is by now since they must have targeted them at night, or town has a single-use bulletproof person, in which case they could've claimed at any point since they're now no better than any other town. Neither of these have happened.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:12
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you know what, im just tying myself in knots here. im just going to go with the straightforward option and vote for whoever i most think is scum ##vote Cloacamazing! maybe i'll vote for plastic instead if it looks like the deadline is coming up and it looks like this vote isnt getting anywhere
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Jul 8, 2022 19:16
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Green Wing posted:
You're correct, you implied you didn't have the defensive role, but that's what I would expect you to say either way. As far as I'm concerned Plastic claiming doctor and protecting you means you couldn't be the doctor because either he's telling the truth, or he's lying scum and you couldn't have protected him.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:17
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Green Wing posted:wait, when did I say the first claim is likely to be a lie? Fine then. How about we vote Cloacamazing instead? Plastic was deflecting from her pretty hard earlier. If she's scum as I believe, that should strongly imply that Plastic is lying.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:23
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Green Wing posted:Also god dammit Bucnasti I only just came around to the idea of you being town, and you're here making posts that ping me again If they don't counterclaim, and Plastic is lying, then scum don't get a free kill on the Doctor. That's a pretty big win for town.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:25
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NeverHelm posted:If they don't counterclaim, and Plastic is lying, then scum don't get a free kill on the Doctor. That's a pretty big win for town. But we have a chance here to, if there is a counter-claim, to be certain. That best-case scenario just relies on us deciding that this claim isn't true based on Plastic's previous suspicious behaviour. Which I'd argue is more useful considering the likelihood of a three-scum setup. I'd like to think that if there is a real doctor, they realise that as well - I'd counter in their shoes, so if no counter comes, I'm tending to think there isn't a counter, no matter how much I voted for Plastic in the past. Also that previous suspicious behaviour mostly (though not entirely - Lupus was deflecting Plastic) relies on not being present. This was even the crux of my post yesterday listing Plastic as a scum pick, before the idea of there being a doctor even entered the fray. I'm just not up for possibly offing the doctor. Cloaca still pings me for sure and I'd go for her as an alternative.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:30
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Green Wing posted:But we have a chance here to, if there is a counter-claim, to be certain. That best-case scenario just relies on us deciding that this claim isn't true based on Plastic's previous suspicious behaviour. Which I'd argue is less useful considering the likelihood of a three-scum setup, and the fact that the removal of the 2nd scum leaves the scum at a possibly-unassailable disadvantage. I'd like to think that if there is a real doctor, they realise that as well - I'd counter in their shoes, so if no counter comes, I'm tending to think there isn't a counter, no matter how much I voted for Plastic in the past. Mafia edit.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:32
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All right then. Let's ##vote Cloacamazing!, for today. But I'm still going to be at Plastic's throat again tomorrow.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:35
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NeverHelm posted:If they don't counterclaim, and Plastic is lying, then scum don't get a free kill on the Doctor. That's a pretty big win for town. Why vote for Cloaca right now? It seems like we either believe Plastic's claim or we don't. So we should vote with them for cuntman or we should vote against them. What's the argument for Cloaca at this point? i don't remember them doing any particularly suspicious.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:37
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Green Wing posted:Mafia edit. My knee-jerk reaction was "the doctor is worth more than a mafia goon", but with this explanation, I think I get it. Assuming there are only 2 scum remaining, voting one more out means that the remaining scum would have to figure out how to eject everyone in the game but themselves and one other person. At that point, the odds are stacked so hard against scum that town basically doesn't need the advantage of the doctor's protect action to win.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:38
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Caffeinated Jerkoff posted:My knee-jerk reaction was "the doctor is worth more than a mafia goon", but with this explanation, I think I get it. Assuming there are only 2 scum remaining, voting one more out means that the remaining scum would have to figure out how to eject everyone in the game but themselves and one other person. At that point, the odds are stacked so hard against scum that town basically doesn't need the advantage of the doctor's protect action to win. Right, exactly! That's put more sufficiently that I could - that's why I think if there is a doctor, they should counter-claim and accept this is probably self-sacrifice. And if nobody does, I'm inclined not to vote for Plastic. Bucnasti posted:It seems like we either believe Plastic's claim or we don't. So we should vote with them for cuntman or we should vote against them. No, just because we think somebody may be town doesn't mean we support their reasoning. Like, I'll take another look at cuntman but nothing sticks out for me.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:40
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I'd vote Cloaca out of self-preservation.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:42
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Really? And here I thought you considered them town just a bit ago. Then go ahead and do it, Plastic. It won't absolve you in my eyes.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:44
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This may be a weird point, but don't Doctors have to successfully mindmeld with scum to pick the person they think scum will target that night? It's obviously extremely powerful, but if there's enough roulette elements to it, couldn't scum just gamble, not kill theoretical Doctor Plastic, and then let town flip him the next day if their kill goes through? ...I mean that's taking a lot of chance and not playing optimally, but as strictly a mind game bamboozler play it could throw people off. That being said, it's a really dramatic claim. I feel like a counterclaim would be very dangerous if Plastic is scum, and while Cloaca has been on my list of possibly suspicious, Plastic has the much more... active air. I don't want to move my vote for the moment.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:44
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I know I've been gunning for Plastic for a while, but something isn't sitting right. So I decided to read Cloacamazing's posts in more detail, and... I mean, some things stick out, like saying "wologar feels like town to me" day 2 and then the very next post (granted, more than 24 hours later) voting wologar anyway. But, hell, is that enough? Is this another bandwagon? If so, who started it? Well technically Caffeinated Jerkoff, but it seems to really only have picked up steam after NeverHelm brought it up again. Unfortunately, my read on NeverHelm is "probably town", so I don't know what to think about that. And now cuntman, Plastic, and Green Wing are all on that bandwagon and they can't all be scum. And now Plastic is also going for Cloacamazing after just a moment ago declaring her likely town? What the gently caress is going on here. This is moving way too fast for me to be entirely happy about this. (But I guess we are only hours away from deadline...)
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Jul 8, 2022 19:45
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Caffeinated Jerkoff posted:My knee-jerk reaction was "the doctor is worth more than a mafia goon", but with this explanation, I think I get it. Assuming there are only 2 scum remaining, voting one more out means that the remaining scum would have to figure out how to eject everyone in the game but themselves and one other person. At that point, the odds are stacked so hard against scum that town basically doesn't need the advantage of the doctor's protect action to win. As much as I theoretically despise the idea of a doctor counterclaiming, on the assumption that there were 3 scum to start with, this does make sense, too. A counterclaim now would make everyone vote for Plastic, and if he doesn't flip scum, whoever counterclaimed goes next. Either way that would leave only 1 scum in the game versus 5 or 6 town and those are some tough odds.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:50
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Jadecore posted:This may be a weird point, but don't Doctors have to successfully mindmeld with scum to pick the person they think scum will target that night? It's obviously extremely powerful, but if there's enough roulette elements to it, couldn't scum just gamble, not kill theoretical Doctor Plastic, and then let town flip him the next day if their kill goes through? ...I mean that's taking a lot of chance and not playing optimally, but as strictly a mind game bamboozler play it could throw people off. This looks like you're arguing that a doctor isn't as huge a utility as all that. Then, wouldn't you agree it's worth losing them in order to lose a scum, at this stage in the game? (the most likely outcome of a counter-claim) If you agree with the above, doesn't it also follow that the lack of a counter-claim indicates there is no counter-claim?
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Jul 8, 2022 19:51
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If there are three scum. And we don't know that. If you're willing to discount my "best case" scenario of Plastic lying and us executing him now, then you should also allow for the "best case" of there only being three scum to not be the case either.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:52
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Actually I just had a brainwave and I'm jumping on this, I'm a dolt. ##vote PlasticAutomaton
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Jul 8, 2022 19:52
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:And now Plastic is also going for Cloacamazing after just a moment ago declaring her likely town? What the gently caress is going on here. This is moving way too fast for me to be entirely happy about this. (But I guess we are only hours away from deadline...) I mean the choice is between someone I know isn't scum (me) or someone who might be scum (Cloaca). It's simple math. 
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Jul 8, 2022 19:52
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The only thing that really sticks out as maybe suspicious to me about cuntman recently is that him outright asking for Plastic to claim a role was pretty boldHyper Crab Tank posted:I know I've been gunning for Plastic for a while, but something isn't sitting right. So I decided to read Cloacamazing's posts in more detail, and... I mean, some things stick out, like saying "wologar feels like town to me" day 2 and then the very next post (granted, more than 24 hours later) voting wologar anyway. But, hell, is that enough? Is this another bandwagon? If so, who started it? Well technically Caffeinated Jerkoff, but it seems to really only have picked up steam after NeverHelm brought it up again. Unfortunately, my read on NeverHelm is "probably town", so I don't know what to think about that. And now cuntman, Plastic, and Green Wing are all on that bandwagon and they can't all be scum. I'd say Plastic still thinks Cloacamazing is probably town, given his post about voting her was: PlasticAutomaton posted:I'd vote Cloaca out of self-preservation.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:52
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We're going back to this then? ##vote PlasticAutomaton
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Jul 8, 2022 19:53
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PlasticAutomaton posted:I mean the choice is between someone I know isn't scum (me) or someone who might be scum (Cloaca). It's simple math. Well why not cuntman? People seem just as suspicious of him and you think he's scum. Do you think that wagon has no wheels?
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Jul 8, 2022 19:54
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That's -1. Sorry for the unexplained change of heart but it will literally be detrimental to town if I'm right and I explain so, like. I'll explain tomorrow if I'm still alive (especially if it's wrong)
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Jul 8, 2022 19:55
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Green Wing makes a lot of sense here. No counterclaim really points at plastic telling the truth. If there's a doctor other than plastic, they should claim and take the hit, that will conclusively get us the kill on 1 scum. If there's not a doctor at all, and somebody was bulletproof (or some other role), they should claim because there's no reason not to.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:56
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Green Wing posted:This looks like you're arguing that a doctor isn't as huge a utility as all that. I get what you're saying but also this feels dependent on the doctor having those self sacrifice instincts and being online and also I think something's weird about the logic here? And I hit preview after stepping away for a moment and glance down and we have undergone a complete circle throw, so I'm just gonna stay where I am, thanks.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:57
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Votecount for Day 3  PlasticAutomaton (4): NeverHelm, Bucnasti, Jadecore, Cloacamazing! (2): Caffeinated Jerkoff, cuntman.net, NeverHelm, cuntman.net (1): PlasticAutomaton Bucnasti (0): Green Wing, Not Voting (2): Cloacamazing!, Hyper Crab TankWith 9 alive, it's 5 votes to execute. The current deadline is July 08th, 2022 at 5 p.m. EDT -- that's in about 2 hours, 2 minutes.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:57
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Green Wing posted:That's -1. Sorry for the unexplained change of heart but it will literally be detrimental to town if I'm right and I explain so, like. I'll explain tomorrow if I'm still alive (especially if it's wrong) Wait? what? I was just about to unvote based on your argument.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:57
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Green Wing posted:Actually I just had a brainwave and I'm jumping on this, I'm a dolt. NeverHelm posted:We're going back to this then? ##vote PlasticAutomaton What the gently caress is this. No seriously, this is making my head spin. Green Wing you'e been saying all day Plastic is town, you have to see that this is looking fishy as all poo poo especially since you explicitly don't seem to want to explain yourself.
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Jul 8, 2022 19:59
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I was looking through post histories and think I found something that indicates somebody else is the doctor.
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Jul 8, 2022 20:00
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Hence having the "gently caress, I'm an idiot" moment. I think this also explains why I don't want to go into the full details?
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Jul 8, 2022 20:00
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Green Wing posted:That's -1. Sorry for the unexplained change of heart but it will literally be detrimental to town if I'm right and I explain so, like. I'll explain tomorrow if I'm still alive (especially if it's wrong) Green Wing posted:
I'm gonna trust your intuition here, I really hope this is correct. ##vote PlasticAutomaton
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Jul 8, 2022 20:02
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 PlasticAutomaton...couldn't you have made better posts?Votecount for Day 3 With 9 alive, it's 5 votes to execute. The current deadline is July 08th, 2022 at 5 p.m. EDT -- that's in about 1 hour, 57 minutes.
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Jul 8, 2022 20:02
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| # ? Apr 19, 2024 02:44 |
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After one villain had been driven from town it felt like things were looking up finally, but there was still something odd about PlasticAutomaton... He was a quiet fellow who always seemed to vanish at the strangest times. When pressed he scoffed and explained that he was a doctor, but the sword hanging by his side seemed to say he was not being honest. When it was discovered he was doing the opposite of doctoring the townfolk he was savagely beaten until all that remained was....a book? Well alright then. PlasticAutomaton, MAFIA-aligned Watcher has been shelved!  quote:You are Roland! You are a survivor. You excel at making the best with the hand that's been dealt to you, no matter how bad. You're calm and observant, and can come off as cold - but you do know a lot of things, and what you don't know, you are good at finding out...
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Jul 8, 2022 20:41
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