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Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
I'd like to play, only ever plated one-night warewolf though.

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Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
I'm here, I don't know how we can flip somebody other than maybe lower paddle without any more information to go off of.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

NeverHelm posted:

Yeah, in the absence of any better choices I might vote Plastic merely to make this a "pure" newbie game as was originally intended. That's sort of a last resort for me, though. I'd much rather vote for someone actually giving scum vibes. So far there hasn't been much of that, the closest thing being Jade for maintaining a reluctance to vote but that doesn't mean much coming from a newbie.

Ok, this is where I'm lost, how does somebody give scum vibes right at the beginning? Like what should I be looking for right now?
If the scum are able to coordinate, I assume they'll target somebody the first night and so the rest of us will need to work together to counter that, otherwise I'd just follow MSRR and spin the wheel at the last minute.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
My experience comes exclusively from drunkenly playing One Night Warewolf a number of times, and watching people at a con play a massive in person game once.

So we gotta vote somebody off, and the good guys should decide here, or the bad guys will do it privately right? Even if it's not the correct choice it's better than letting the bad guys direct the first move. Am I getting this correct?

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
I'm going to wait a few hours to vote, and since I'm convinced that offing someone is better than not I will vote for MSRR unless someone else is leading the vote by then, even though I don't think MSRR is scum, the information from they're reveal will be useful.

Hyper Crab Tank posted:

Also, nobody is stepping up to defend Re-Reg either, so either the scum have already decided to bus him or he's not scum.

This is my primary reason for not believing that MSRR is scum, I feel like somebody at some point would have at least made some attempt to deflect for him.

Unless this is all a super double blind mindfuck... which it could be.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
How long does night usually last?

And what types of roles are there? I'm only familiar with the ones from the One Night Warewolf game.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

That's actually super useful thank you.

When we vote to execute, do we get the flip immediately or do we have to wait until after the night phase?

I'm going to vote at the 3 hour mark, unless somebody drops the hammer before that.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
Ok, casting my vote before I head to lunch.

##vote: My Second Re-Reg

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
Are there any roles that show false information on the flip?

I just want to make sure that MSRRs death was not in vain in any way.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
Like I suspected MSRR was a townie, which to me implicates everyone who piled onto them early, especially Green Wing.

I might change my vote later, but right now, I'm pretty sure Green Wing is scum, and I'm pretty suspect of NeverHelm.

##vote Green Wing

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

Caffeinated Jerkoff posted:

Scum want town to vote Green Wing or NeverHelm here, otherwise they would've killed one of them overnight. Green Wing in particular was completely transparent about their reasoning throughout D1, and even voiced doubt about the MSRR vote, though not strong enough doubt to unvote.

Green Wing backpeddaled when people started to point out that MSRR was getting dog pilled, they were consistently pushing against MSRR from the start. The way I see it the scum saw MSRR present an easy target and they pounced, overplayed it and then tried to back away a bit at the end.

NeverHelm posted:


Fair enough, although I personally think that the people who joined in late with minimal justification are more suspicious. Speaking of which, you were one of those people, Bucnasti. In fact, you dropped the hammer... On someone you suspected was a townie? I know you said it was "for information" but there were plenty of others who had not voted yet. If any of them voted for MSRR, that would be valuable information on its own.

I made it pretty clear that I dropped the hammer on MSRR because there was nobody else likely to get voted off and we needed to know for sure, either he was scum or the people that lined up to off him were scum. Now I know for sure. I waited as long as real world commitments allowed before voting so I could see if anyone else would do the deed.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
Like I said, I didn't think MSRR was scum because nobody even made a token effort to defend or deflect for him. You on the other hand were quick to help NeverHelm without any prompting.

This is my suspicion, You and NeverHelm are scum, you're trying to deflect from each other and MSRR presented an easy target.

And just like you said, If I was scum I wouldn't be making the first vote today.

If somebody can provide me with better info, I'll listen, but until then I'm pointing my finger directly at Green Wing.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

cuntman.net posted:

i agree with this. it makes sense for the scum to make their choices to deny us as much information as possible

on that note, i have no idea either way if green wing is scum or not, but i wouldnt want to vote for her right now just because shes the one whos been posting the most so if shes scum, shes more likely to give herself away eventually

ive also been thinking about who the other mason(s) might be. it makes sense that it would be one of the people who were reluctant to vote for msrr, so maybe bucnasti, cloacamazing, or wologar. im thinking wologar since there was a post where it seemed like they were discouraging people from voting, which doesnt make sense if theyre town or scum, but makes a lot more sense if theyre a mason

if this is what you think, why not vote for neverhelm instead? theyre have more experience and dont post as much

Somebody will have to tell me if this is a faux pas or giving away valuable information, but since MSRR is gone I don't think it matters, I'm the other Mason. MSRR and I agreed before the vote that if it turned out he wasn't SCUM that Green Wing was the most likely culprit and that I'd do whatever I could to bring him down.

I'm probably putting a big old target on myself for both sides, but right now I'm confident Green Wing is scum, and nobody has yet to give a compelling reason why he isn't, just lots of attempts to redirect to other people.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

Green Wing posted:

This is a scum slip.

Masons know that each other aren't scum. That's what that role is. There is no way what is said here can be true - there is no "if it turned out he wasn't scum".

Like, I thought you were just wrong about me - but this is an outright, "got 'em", scum slip. There's no way you're the other mason, because the masons knew they both were town. ##vote Bucnasti.

We were both told that we did not know each others alignment, and if I'm not the other Mason, somebody else can come forward and dispute it.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

wologar posted:

The wiki says otherwise: https://www.samafia.net/wiki/Masons

Masons are players, typically townies, that may speak to each other out of thread. While Masons are usually confirmed townies, several games on SA have scum Masons within a Mason group; if there is a probability of a scum mason, it is expected that mods will include a line similar to "You are not sure of Player's alignment" in the role PM.

I thought of first asking Bucnasti if their role especified MSRR's alignment as a possible gotcha, but I had linked the wiki myself, so I think that's moot.

So Bucnasti, did you know MSRR's alignment for sure?

Nope, like I said we were specifically told that we did not know each-other's alignment. We were both suspicious of each-other.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

Green Wing posted:

Wait, hang on.

if it's unconfirmed masons then how does you being the other Mason back up your case at all? Like, it becomes irrelevant.

It's why I'm voting for you instead of NeverHelm. I think you're both Scum, but MSRR and I agreed you were the more likely culprit.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

cuntman.net posted:

well i'll say that im pretty sure green wing is town now because i dont think a scum would have made that mistake

Thats kinda valid. Not enough for me to change my vote yet though.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

Green Wing posted:


Like...why would this be the case? If it's unconfirmed, it doesn't make you a confirmed townie or anything (also, she)


Sorry, purely unintentional, I might think you're scum but that's no reason to be disrespectful.
...

I'm not saying that being a mason makes me a townie, it's entirely possible I'm a scum playing a crazy 4d chess game here, but to be honest it's much more likely that I'm playing checkers on a Parcheesi board here.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

cuntman.net posted:

i did, but i think my reasoning still stands. i think a mason would want to defend their fellows either way. i guess it doesnt really matter now since it looks like bucnasti is the other mason

actually, were there only 2 masons to start? asking bucnasti here. although if you dont want to answer thats fine

There were only 2 of us, originally it was just me, but MSRR joined to fill in for a no-show.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
Maybe I'm confused by the text in the channel, but I was the only Mason at first and then they added MSRR later.
I'm not allowed to quote the text in the chat, but they said I'd be lonely until a new mason showed up.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
RE: Hammering MSRR

This is the mental equation I was working with at the time.
1. Offing someone on day one is valuable to the town and no offing someone was valuable to the scum
2. There's a chance that MSRR was a scum, there was (at the time I believed) an equal chance of Green Wing being scum and targetting MSRR
3. Not knowing for sure if my fellow mason was scum drastically limited the usefulness of the mason channel (this may have been a miss-assessment on my part)

Since it didn't look like there was anyone else that would get voted off, I said I would vote for MSRR and at least their death would give us more information to go off of, and I wouldn't have to worry about giving up info in mason chat to a potential scum. I voted as late as real world activities would allow at the time.

Looking back now, I think the better play would have been to try to split the vote by backing somebody else which would make people commit to voting one way or the other, that would have given a lot more information for us on Day2.

All that said my vote is still on Green Wing, I'm starting to doubt that more and more, but nobody else has been presented as a possible candidate, and until I have a better target I will continue my quest for masonic vengeance.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
So at this point what do we have to go off of to determine who should be voted out next?
We've done a lot of justifying people's actions but not a lot of identifying who could still be scum.

Looking at the actual vote counts:

My Second Re-Reg (7): Green Wing, NeverHelm, Caffeinated Jerkoff, Jadecore, AFancyQuestionMark, LupusAter, Jadecore, PlasticAutomaton, Bucnasti
NeverHelm (1): My Second Re-Reg
Green Wing (1): Cloacamazing!
Jadecore (0): Green Wing, Green Wing

Not Voting (4): cuntman.net, Hyper Crab Tank, Jadecore, wologar

What's the most likely scum behavior? Not voting to stay unnoticed, voting for MSRR to kill a townie, or throwing out a red herring vote?

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

votefinder posted:

Votecount for Day 2

Green Wing (1): Bucnasti
Bucnasti (0): Green Wing, Green Wing
Cloacamazing! (0): Green Wing, Green Wing

Not Voting (10): Caffeinated Jerkoff, Cloacamazing!, cuntman.net, Green Wing, Hyper Crab Tank, Jadecore, LupusAter, NeverHelm, PlasticAutomaton, wologar

With 11 alive, it's 6 votes to execute. The current deadline is July 04th, 2022 at 5 p.m. EDT -- that's in about 1 day, 17 hours.

How is Green Wing voting for me, Cloacamazing and nobody at the same time?

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
The more I think about it the more I think Plastic might be the right play.

They're posting has been kinda erratic, which is suspect.
It was brought up early on day one to off them because they were dangerous, but that got deflected when MSRR claimed they would chaos vote.
If they were dangerous wouldn't the scum have taken then out the first night instead of afancyquestionmark?

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
Right now my top suspects are Plastic and Lupus as a pair.

Plastic for a lot of the same reasons as everyone else (not getting into the meta role selection an mod decision side of things), but especially because if they were town and had been IDed as the most experienced player in the game I really feel that scum would have offed them on Night one.

On his own Lupus is a little suspect but if I'm assuming that Plastic is Scum then Lupus has been indirectly deflecting from him since the beginning, as well as deflecting us from useful trains of thought like "why did scum choose Afancyquestionmark instead of somebody who was more active?"

My two big fears are:
1. Scum chose Afancyquestionmark completely arbitrarily on N1 to confuse people. In which case I'm wrong about everything.
2. That Green Wing is scum, and if I don't vote for them my masonic brother will go unavenged.

## Unvote

Although I don't think it matters at the moment, I'm taking my vote off Green Wing for clarity. BUT I STILL GOT MY EYE ON YOU.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

LupusAter posted:

Thing is, it's not a useful train of thought right now. With a single datapoint, it's at best reading tea leaves and at worst deliberately wasting time and effort.

Then what data points should we be looking at? As far as I know we really only have one. So not perusing it is just reading tea leaves. Would you prefer just not deduce anything on Day 2 and vote randomly?

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
I intend to wait as long as possible to vote this time, and I'm still torn between Wologar and Plastic. But I do think it's one or the other and not likely to be both.

Looking at Wologors posts it seems they only do two things. Accuse Plastic, or make jokes (some of which are also accusing Plastic).

I still think it's suspicious that Plasticautomoton wasn't targeted by the scum on night 1, but maybe that can be explained by the scum wanting us to remain suspicious of them.

LupusAter still gives me the strongest scum vibes, but nobody else seems to want to pursue voting for them.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
So no nightkill, what exactly could that mean other than a successful defensive role?
Is there any reason the scum would choose not to kill someone?

I'm in favor or eliminating lupusater, I've suspected they were scum for a long time, but I don't want to vote for it until I have a better idea if it's actually a good move. If they're scum then huzzah! but if they're not, is it better to have an inactive townie or one less townie?

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
What's the most likely number of scum in a 13 player game? three? four?
With our numbers dwindling voting early is going to become more dangerous, if it only takes 2 town votes to get somebody killed, I feel like commiting to votes is a bigger deal.

I'm still really in favor of eliminating lupusater, but i don't want to vote until more of us are confident it's the right play.

I'm also still very suspicious of Plastic, everyone else I have pretty neutral opinions at this point.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
Green Wing is either a masterful scum or a terrible townie, I was leaning towards the later but this last post points me back at thinking they're scum.

Green Wing posted:


In fact, I'll now go at far to say - I think the lack of a night kill confirms that Plastic is Town.

Why? As I said in my posts yesterday, I found plastic's soft claim very suspicious. Why would he take the risk of painting a target on his back?


Why would scum target Plastic for a nightkill? and why would a defensive townie try to protect them? They were the alternate suspicion from everyone else, and it was expected that if wolgor was town that plastic would be the next vote.

Now I"m thinking scum team is Plastic, Green Wing and Lupus, and I'll go ahead and commit to that.

##vote PlasticAutomaton
##eliminate LupusAter

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

Green Wing posted:

The answer to both of these is clear and simple - because Plastic hinted be had a power role.

I do not think there is a clear enough alternative target for a protective role to have coincided with the scum target (though simple chance is an option)

When exactly was the hint about the power roll? Day 1 or Day 2?
If it's day 1 then that just reinforces my suspicions that they're scum because they were not targeted on Night 1.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
One of two scenarios are true in regards to my alignment:

Either I'm a mastermind scum player who's intentionally faking not knowing how the rules work, what the roles are, or how the game was setup, and also giving up a major advantage by offing my fellow mason AND intentionally loving up my reveal to further muddy the waters.

Or

I'm a newbie townie who's never played the game before and is learning as they go.

I appreciate anyone who thinks the former is possible.

The only thing that keeps me from being 100% sure Green Wing is scum is the reaction to my revealing I was the other Mason. It's possible it was a head-fake but it seemed to genuine.
Other than that Green Wing is constantly throwing out new theories, changing their votes, driving the conversation to specific people, and generally creating chaos, which all seem like good scum moves to me.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

cuntman.net posted:

thats a good point. itd be impressive to be scum and not let anything slip after pretty much being the threads main character for a day

im sorry for coming back to this over and over but when did you first get suspicious of green wing?

Towards the end of Day 1.
I'm not allowed to directly quote mason chat but I can paraphrase our discussion before MSRR was removed:


Me - Pointed out that Neverhelm is suspect because he claimed to be a newbie but wasn't acting like one.
MSRR - Agreed
<some discussion about my birthday and what I would have for lunch Spoiler: it was a burrito>

MSRR they're targeting us both.
Me - Pointed out that Green Wing is suspect, acting overly paranoid is a pretty obvious scum play.
MSRR - Agreed, thought Green Wing was trying too hard

<time passed and the votes against MSRR piled up>
MSRR - Concedes defeat, says that their death would say a lot.
Me - I think Nevrhelm and Green Wing coordinated to target MSRR, but I have no evidence to back it up. If I have to I'll vote for MSRR just so we'll know for sure. If MSRR is town I'll go after Green Wing and Neverhelm

<couple of people back off their votes against MSRR>
MSRR - There's a chance he'll survive, Says he wouldn't blame me if I had to be the one to vote him off. Also says Green Wing and Neverhelm are both scum.
MSRR- Says he'll enjoy the I told you so moment.

<I cast the final vote>
ME - If you're innocent I'm going to push hard on day 2, and if you're scum then you deserved it for being a bad mason.
<Fist bump emojis>
MSRR - Hope you don't get targeted next

<the flip revealed MSRR was Town and they were removed from the mason chat>
Me to Mods: Please tell MSRR that I will avenge him.


The rest you guys have seen, I drove hard on Green Wing on Day 2 like I said i would. Revealed my role as Mason, which caused a lot of confusion. Green Wing reacted like a townie, which crushed my entire idea that Neverhelm and Green Wing were coordinating.

I moved my suspicion over to Plastic based on the idea that they would be the primary target for scum on N1, along with LupusAter because they didn't vote and all their posts were deflections, mostly away from Plastic.

I still stand on this, unless somebody wants to come forward and say they defended Plastic on N2, which I can't imagine anyone would do.

If Green Wing is scum, then bravo, you deserve to win this game.
If Green Wing isn't scum then good job losing it for town.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
I just thought of one other possibility.

Green Wing could be so sure that Plastic isn't Scum because Green Wing has a defensive role that they used to protect Plastic on N2.

At which point, I'm back to the beginning and have no idea who to vote out.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
I was actually starting to doubt my read on LupusAter at the end there, since nobody came to their defense. It also seems kinda strange that the other scum let them miss the post count on day 2. Maybe they just weren't participating on the scum side either.

The question now is if the scum threw them to the wolves (get it?) or if they just didn't vote and let if fall where it was (or I guess a little of both)?



Plastic is still on the top of my list. Re-reading Lupus' posts they're mostly re-direction whenever people point out that Plastic wasn't targeted on Night 1 or people suggesting that targeting the most experienced player would be a good move on D1.

Green Wing I still feel is an either/or situation, I have conflicting thoughts there, it's possible they have a role they're not willing to reveal.

cuntman.net and cloacamazing! didn't vote, and there's been a lot of suspicion cast on cloaca, but I feel like the scum wouldn't make it so easy to identify them by just not voting on lupus.

Everyone else, slightly tending towards townies in my mind at the moment.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
This throws a big wrench at my idea that GW was doctor and protected Plastic on N2.

I'm not sure I buy protecting Green Wing on N2 though. Green Wing seems like one of the least likely targets for Scum as they're overloading everyone with info and causing plenty of confusion.
The problem I'm coming up against now is that I don't have a better explanation for the N2 missed kill. Who else could have been targeted and would have made a likely defense target?

If we off Plastic, we'll know for sure, and that will possibly confirm Green Wing as well.
I'm feel super weird saying it, but I think offing plastic is still the best course of action no matter what side we think they're on.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

Hyper Crab Tank posted:

Plastic, who do you think is scum among the ones who did vote out LupusAter today?

Yeah.

Assuming Plastic is town, and we vote them out. What would that tell us for Day 4?
If we're going to potentially vote out a valuable townie, we should get as much out of it as possible.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

Green Wing posted:


Oh, yeah, sorry, I thought I said - no, I'm not the doctor, my theory was legitimately based on inferring somebody else's actions.

You're correct, you implied you didn't have the defensive role, but that's what I would expect you to say either way.
As far as I'm concerned Plastic claiming doctor and protecting you means you couldn't be the doctor because either he's telling the truth, or he's lying scum and you couldn't have protected him.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

NeverHelm posted:

If they don't counterclaim, and Plastic is lying, then scum don't get a free kill on the Doctor. That's a pretty big win for town.

Why vote for Cloaca right now?
It seems like we either believe Plastic's claim or we don't. So we should vote with them for cuntman or we should vote against them.

What's the argument for Cloaca at this point? i don't remember them doing any particularly suspicious.

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Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes
Green Wing makes a lot of sense here. No counterclaim really points at plastic telling the truth.
If there's a doctor other than plastic, they should claim and take the hit, that will conclusively get us the kill on 1 scum.
If there's not a doctor at all, and somebody was bulletproof (or some other role), they should claim because there's no reason not to.

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