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I think the cover works very well with the themes and motifs of the game, but not in a way I feel up to really concretely putting into words off the cuff. That said, the impression I got when it came up in some rope kid interview was they also wanted it to be something eye grabbing and kinda weird to make it pop out in the sea of gamepass tiles
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Nov 29, 2022 01:05
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Pwnstar posted:WIKIPEDIA, A GUIDE: A pentimento in painting, is the presence or emergence of earlier images, forms, or strokes that have been changed and painted over WIKIPEDIA, A GUIDE: [Redirects a search for Satia to the page about the goddess Diana] ME, AN INTELLECTUAL: Oh word. I'm sure no one in this chill-rear end village would have a problem with pagan roots for their local saints.
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Nov 29, 2022 01:18
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Caufman posted:WIKIPEDIA, A GUIDE: [Redirects a search for Satia to the page about the goddess Diana] Yeah, it's funny how that works. Hmm, these two stories about Tassing's roots sure do sound pretty similar. I guess it makes sense that there might be multiple interpretations of what happened evolving over the generations, but surely it's not something somebody is willing to murder over! 
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Nov 29, 2022 02:03
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Oh ropekid please put St. Guinefort in your next game
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Nov 29, 2022 14:15
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404notfound posted:Yeah, it's funny how that works. Hmm, these two stories about Tassing's roots sure do sound pretty similar. I guess it makes sense that there might be multiple interpretations of what happened evolving over the generations, but surely it's not something somebody is willing to murder over! I was happy to see it was mostly the priest who had a problem with the pagan roots of local traditions because it matches with my personal experience in a catholic country full of weird local traditions which are obviously older than the Church and were simply tolerated or integrated within the Catholic tradition the pragmatic way. Nobody here cares whether the Christmas tree is pagan or if the birth of Jesus is the celebration of Sol Invictus. Only people who care are those who are insecure in their faith And it's not even particular to the Church. Before that, the Romans were already trying to integrate the pantheons of their occupied territories within their own culture (as actually illustrated in the game with Perchta and Diana) because they quickly realized it would be more beneficial than trying to erase them SpaceGoatFarts fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Nov 29, 2022 |
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Nov 29, 2022 16:24
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Scorchy posted:I probably missed this but what's the significance of the head-on-fire in the cover art? The stuff about demiurgic Deceivers creating false realities didn't factor much into alchemical thinking, but the Valentinians held that souls were saved through secret knowledge of the true God that Jesus came down to spread (what survives of the Gnostic gospels is lousy with interminable passages of Jesus vaguely saying "I have a secret" to frustrated apostles). The idea of secret knowledge of some greater realization was sort of repurposed or translated into alchemical thought. Hence the term "occult" - the truth is occulted, which is to say hidden and secret - and why the word "cult" derived from it is so apt; the fundamental method of control that cults exercise is the notion that there are secret truths only accessible through a special person or elect of people, which gives such people authority. Anyway, the occult spin on alchemy, broadly, was that the end goal of the Great Work was not turning lead into gold or an elixir of immortality but a realization of greater truth, whatever that was. That truth filled the mind with "light" or "fire", and so in illustrations the alchemist who completes The Great Work is depicted as having a flaming head, or a head that is a sun, eg:  Thematically it tracks, given that the game is about uncovering secrets. * I was curious about this; given the rigor of the game's writing I'm fairly sure Obs did their diligence and are almost certainly more well-read than I am, but even as Vacslav doesn't use the term "Gnosticism" his explanations resemble a lot of modern confusion around the term. He references actual Valentinian Gnosticism in the "physical world is made by Satan" bit, but then he dips into Christian contemplative mysticism (ala The Cloud of Unknowing). The latter was certainly around at that time, and you can always count on occultists to indulge in cocksure syncretism, but I'm unsure of when, exactly, the Zen-y Christian mystic tradition became associated with Gnosticism. AFAIK there's not a ton to suggest the former wrote with the latter in mind, the association between them was constructed post-hoc. Maybe Vacslav makes that connection himself, but his explanation feels more like a summary of a reading than a synthesis. Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 29, 2022 |
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Nov 29, 2022 21:12
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Finally finished Act 3, it's been a heck of a ride and a GOTY. Not much to add, however I did have one Act 3 question Was the pig and the Warden just to illustrate that new lord, same as the old one, rulings are arbitrary? Or did I miss the secret ending? Anyways, highly recommend. I do not envy Tassing over the next century though.
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Nov 30, 2022 06:53
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Here's a book historian doing a Pentiment LP, gives a lot of context and neat facts where appropriate, catching setting details (unprepped vellum at a free desk in the scriptorium) and art (catchingSebhet was Ethiopian because he's illustrated in the style of Coptic illuminations). Pro watch if you like minutia
Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 08:34
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Basic Chunnel posted:* I was curious about this; given the rigor of the game's writing I'm fairly sure Obs did their diligence and are almost certainly more well-read than I am, but even as Vacslav doesn't use the term "Gnosticism" his explanations resemble a lot of modern confusion around the term. He references actual Valentinian Gnosticism in the "physical world is made by Satan" bit, but then he dips into Christian contemplative mysticism (ala The Cloud of Unknowing). The latter was certainly around at that time, and you can always count on occultists to indulge in cocksure syncretism, but I'm unsure of when, exactly, the Zen-y Christian mystic tradition became associated with Gnosticism. AFAIK there's not a ton to suggest the former wrote with the latter in mind, the association between them was constructed post-hoc. Maybe Vacslav makes that connection himself, but his explanation feels more like a summary of a reading than a synthesis. I have not done any serious scholarship on the topic of the association between gnosticism and Christian mysticism beyond a personal interest in the latter, so this is all just my limited anectdotal experience. But ,yes, my experience has been that any time I see an association between the two, it's been done post-hoc, and largely by people (contemporary conservative Christians) who don't like either but especially want to make the association to disparage Christian mysticism, which is at least as old as the Desert Mothers and Fathers without ever being labeled a heresy by the early Church leaders, by tying it to gnosticism, which is definitely weirder, less popular, and appears more threatening at least on the surface. But yeah, it does also seem like the association is very tenuous. I'd say Christian mysticism and gnosticism are pretty dissimilar in beliefs, especially about dualism/non-dualism. The gnostics are very dualistic, as demonstrated by their belief that the physical world is made by Satan and therefore bad. This is in contrast with the mystic's practice to look at the world and see that no thing as separate from God. I have to replay this game, but I think I remember that when I met Vaclav in the first act, I wondered if he was hinting at a mystic's understanding of God. But in Act 3, he clearly discloses a dualistic and gnostic belief about the world and its creation. Definitely not something I think is worth persecuting and killing people over, but if I had a choice, I would have pushed Vaclav to answer why he thinks or how he knows that the world was made by Satan.
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Nov 30, 2022 08:41
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Caufman posted:I have not done any serious scholarship on the topic of the association between gnosticism and Christian mysticism beyond a personal interest in the latter, so this is all just my limited anectdotal experience. But ,yes, my experience has been that any time I see an association between the two, it's been done post-hoc, and largely by people (contemporary conservative Christians) who don't like either but especially want to make the association to disparage Christian mysticism, which is at least as old as the Desert Mothers and Fathers without ever being labeled a heresy by the early Church leaders, by tying it to gnosticism, which is definitely weirder, less popular, and appears more threatening at least on the surface. Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 09:39
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Did anybody else find it weird that Karl and Helena are not mentioned in the journal at all and we don't even know where they live? The journal thing must be a bug, right? Even smaller characters have an entry.
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Dec 1, 2022 18:07
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lordfrikk posted:Did anybody else find it weird that Karl and Helena are not mentioned in the journal at all and we don't even know where they live? The journal thing must be a bug, right? Even smaller characters have an entry. By the 3rd act most character entries were gone from my journal besides a dozen. So I assume that the journal is still buggy.
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Dec 1, 2022 18:27
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I'm an archaeologist IRL and in Act III my Magdalena became obsessed with cool Roman pottery and decided to fuckin ignore all the legends and paint the actual people of the town as they were, in all three eras, each time building something new amid the ruins of the old. Game of the loving year. I love this game treating the people of the past just like people-- and simultaneously allowing them to have the realization that the people of their past were also just people.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:50
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Scorchy posted:I probably missed this but what's the significance of the head-on-fire in the cover art? There might be more direct references, but it reminded me of a depiction of Hildegard von Bingen:  Hildegard was an extremely prolific author who claimed to have mystic visions. In the game, there's a painting of her inside the convent's main building (the one with the latticed screen). I think her head's also on fire there. She's also linked to the game's soundtrack - on top of being one of the most well-known composers of her time (I think part of the OST is renditions of her music, maybe?), Lingua Ignota, who sings the ending song, takes her stage name from the made-up language invented by Hildegard.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:50
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too tired to make a longer post but i finished the game in a whirlwind and was feeling mostly satisfied with my choices until i realized ursula AND vácslav got burnt for heresy and now i already want a do-over  incredible game tho, definitely up there with disco elysium dmboogie fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Dec 2, 2022 |
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Dec 2, 2022 12:00
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Just beat this and god drat that was a ride. I felt like a huge fuckup, but I did at least get what I felt like was a good ending all told. The blacksmith has a huge family, Andreas' hat has become a family heirloom, Ferenc the Inquisitor is apparently running a quasi heretical bookclub with Ursula and Vaclav, I feel a bit bad about Ottila's death but Hanna and Lenhart absolutely had it coming.
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Dec 2, 2022 15:50
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In act 2, doesthe mill get burned down if you accuse people other than Guy? I really liked the scenes with the miller and the bread maker's kids ending up together and starting up their family. Other than some minor complaints about chapter 3 it was a very enjoyable ride. I really with I could relax my save and look at the family tree one more time and see what details I missed.
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Dec 2, 2022 18:38
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You can do that last thing, it's just really unintuitive : if you begin a new game, your old game is still there and you can go back a few autosaves.
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Dec 2, 2022 18:45
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From what I read, I have no idea why Lenhart decides to protect Martin of all people except to stick it to the peasants.
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Dec 2, 2022 20:29
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Lenhardt does say why in the commons, but (currently) only if you did the hunt with him. He says it's specifically to spite Peter by denying him revenge. I made some adjustments to the script logic and dialogues for the next patch that will hopefully reinforce this. Also, to be clear, he really does not have any fear of the peasants until after he accidentally shoots Ulrich, at which point it's too late.
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Dec 2, 2022 20:38
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Re: the Miller, my take is as a proto-libertarian, the fact that anyone is demanding anything of him and how he uses his property is principled grounds for violent refusal. It doesn’t even matter whether he likes Martin or whether Martin asked permission to take refuge. It doesn’t matter that the mob might be appeased if he gives the man up. He’s being told to give something up, and that supersedes all context. Liberty or death, he chooses death.
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Dec 2, 2022 20:41
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Oh I just assumed that was "well, we scripted this all out for Hannah, but we don't have enough resources left to do an alternate entire plot resolution and have it work back into the next act cleanly for Martin, so . . . .presto! Mill Buddies!"
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Dec 2, 2022 20:46
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I mean there is also that, too. EDIT Act 2 spoilers: If there is not a confrontation at the mill during which Ulrich gets killed and the peasants burn the mill in retaliation, it becomes significantly harder to conceive of/write/script the alternate route/routes by which things escalate to the burning of the abbey. Also, Kate Dollarhyde pointed out something relatively early into Act 2 development, which is that Lenhardt kind of has to die because he's such an irredeemable scumbag and any resolution in which he does not will be seen as 1000x less satisfying than the ones where he does. rope kid fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Dec 2, 2022 |
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Dec 2, 2022 20:48
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did the abbey get (Act III) overrun by cats because I gave Mausfanger the sausage in Act II? If so, that’s one of the few decisions in this game I feel unequivocally good about 
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Dec 2, 2022 20:53
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MizuZero posted:did the abbey get (Act III) overrun by cats because I gave Mausfanger the sausage in Act II? If so, that’s one of the few decisions in this game I feel unequivocally good about Nobody can answer this question because nobody would dare to not give that good boi a sausage rope kid posted:I mean there is also that, too. Same here if the alternative were a possibility
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Dec 2, 2022 20:56
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every instance of people talking about that loving miller in part three got a laugh out of me random bits of the game have been swirling around in my head all day, I can’t get over the monk singing in the library - the faltering false start, the growing confidence as he keeps going, all around a stunning performance
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Dec 2, 2022 21:33
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dmboogie posted:every instance of people talking about that loving miller in part three got a laugh out of me It's also pretty funny because the game has (IMO) a very marxist view of history where people's actions are heavily informed and constrained by their specific social classes... and then there's Lenhardt, who is structurally antagonist to everyone else because he's a proto-bourgeoisie but like, more importantly just a huge rear end in a top hat. Paul is still the wealthiest person in town by a large margin and "should" have the enmity of the peasants too but like, he's not a loving monster and is a good neighbor and so the conflict just doesn't exist. I wonder what happens if you try and gently caress him up as much as possible over the first two acts and like, always tell him to listen to Lenhardt. Sometime to see if I ever get the emotional fortitude for a cursed playthrough, maybe. Also, for maximum pedant points: you don't actually have the option of feeding Mausfanger, it's a different and as far as I can tell unnamed cat.
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Dec 2, 2022 22:22
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To make a pedantic but (IMO) important distinction, their actions are less informed by a sense of class and more informed by their material conditions, which is still a Marxist lens to look through, but one that can exist prior to class distinctions. There certainly were many cases during the Revolution of 1525 (at least in Swabia) where nobles made concessions to burgher demands for reform, which eroded or destroyed alliances between craft laborers/merchants etc. and the peasantry. Such tactics are still employed today!
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Dec 2, 2022 22:36
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illuminata & andreas’s overdue book fetch quest dialogue was when this game hooked me
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Dec 2, 2022 22:38
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illuminata is the cutest evers....
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Dec 2, 2022 22:53
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Just wanna say how much I appreciate that it wasn't made a binary choice in Act 3 to either marry Otz or go to Prague. I chose to have Magda go to Prague but did treat Otz like he was almost her boyfriend, and was very polite whenever somebody suggested they get married, so at the end of the game when Magda is getting ready to leave and Otz is like,"I can't believe you're going " I was so, so, so happy that Magda had the option to say,"Then come to Prague if you REALLY wanna be my boyfriend" and he only loving went and did it 
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Dec 2, 2022 23:05
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meanwhile i hated otz and found him completely suffocating
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Dec 2, 2022 23:10
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dmboogie posted:random bits of the game have been swirling around in my head all day, I can’t get over the monk singing in the library - the faltering false start, the growing confidence as he keeps going, all around a stunning performance That moment is awesome, but I feel like there should have been a movement of the camera to show the reaction of the monks on the other floors. That we see Mathieu, Wojslav, Caspar and Andreas react was good, but I would have wanted to see Lukas, Florian, Aedoc and Ferenc too!
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Dec 2, 2022 23:13
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Snooze Cruise posted:meanwhile i hated otz and found him completely suffocating Well then you had the option to get very far away from him!
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Dec 2, 2022 23:14
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im curious how other people felt about that whole dynamic, i no-sold basically the whole thing by being prickly to the boys, otz is nice enough but magda definitely felt like she’d resent the constant assumption from basically all the adults in the village that she’d inevitably marry him one daySnooze Cruise posted:meanwhile i hated otz and found him completely suffocating what, you weren’t impressed by him finally calling magda by her full name after months (and probably years) of her asking?
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Dec 2, 2022 23:14
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Digital Osmosis posted:Also, for maximum pedant points: you don't actually have the option of feeding Mausfanger, it's a different and as far as I can tell unnamed cat. I read in this thread that the sausage-receiving cat was mausfanger, and that impacted how I remembered it. unfortunately I already told my cat that mausfanger got the sausage, so in 5 years (3-4 cat generations) it’ll be true  actually she’s spayed
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Dec 2, 2022 23:18
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Man, I didn't even have the option to ask him to come to Prague. If that could motivate him to become as good a craftsman as his father was, that would be nice. I maybe made Magdalene too comfortable with the idea of marrying him ? Or perhaps one needs to make the first part of the fresco, the one for which he checks in, more exciting ?
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Dec 2, 2022 23:21
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X_Toad posted:Man, I didn't even have the option to ask him to come to Prague. If that could motivate him to become as good a craftsman as his father was, that would be nice. I maybe made Magdalene too comfortable with the idea of marrying him ? Or perhaps one needs to make the first part of the fresco, the one for which he checks in, more exciting ? In regards to that last part, I made the first part of the Fresco the farmers working the fields and he commented on how boring it was, so that didn't impact on the Prague option, or at least not enough to make a difference.
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Dec 2, 2022 23:23
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I'm confused about something in your previous post by the way : did you have a choice between staying or going to Prague ? I was under the impression the later always happened.
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Dec 2, 2022 23:26
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dmboogie posted:im curious how other people felt about that whole dynamic, i no-sold basically the whole thing by being prickly to the boys, otz is nice enough but magda definitely felt like she’d resent the constant assumption from basically all the adults in the village that she’d inevitably marry him one day I felt really weird about this one too. I felt like it was the same thing with Andreas and how he can speak about his wife where the game really had it nailed down that Andreas was at best ambivalent to his wife and Magda really didn't want to stay in Tassing and get married to Otz, but gave the player the option to say otherwise for some reason. I just picked the contrarian option, Andreas mostly because I didn't want him to be a bitter man and Magda so she wouldn't be an obvious jerk (even though I can see why it would be insufferable in real life). It just didn't seem like a real role playing option given that she goes to Prague no matter what, but I did like that you got to ask Otz to follow you there and he actually follows through.
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Dec 2, 2022 23:31
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