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Majorian posted:It seems pretty likely to me that by continuing the "VBNMW" strategy and trusting in the Democratic Party to defend our rights, we're still going to end up with the worst-case scenario: a fascist America. We are already a truly bad actor in the world - there are ways in which we could be worse, but we'll probably hit those targets once the Republicans consolidate full control over the government anyway. So we need to be prepared to take a chance and try something new when the old strategy has failed us time after time. 1) the Democratic party is a failure and electoral politics won't save us 2) spending a few hours once a year on voting blue for harm reduction is worth your time Direct action is increasingly our way forward, and that takes many hours sustained over days, weeks, months, years. It's personally expensive and even unsafe. A few hours voting may not accomplish much, but it does accomplish something, and the economy of that is tough to beat. We have to look at it as one small tool in a much larger toolbox. Maybe someday our grandkids can just show up for 2 hours a year of voting to see the arc of the moral universe continue to bend towards justice. But that's not us.. we have to roll up our sleeves, get dirty, and make it loving bend.
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Jun 25, 2022 07:50
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Have Some Flowers! posted:I know we're all trying to process what we can do personally to affect this situation, right, and I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I don't have all the answers or fault anyone for how they're working through this today. But if it helps, where I land is that you can simultaneously believe that: It doesn't seem to actually be reducing harm, is the thing. Instead it just sends a giant message that you can be taken for granted. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:god. remember back during the primaries, when Joe Biden claimed he planned to support expanding Obamacare, and also that he was going to cure cancer As per usual, any wisp of progressiveness was immediately dumpstered the second he had the primary locked in in favor of hiding in a basement and outright hostility towards anyone who questioned him. For all the claims that progressive ideals just aren't electable every centrist seems to love pretending to be progressive when it's primary time. Grouchio posted:Have you been this pessimistic since Biden took office? Pessimism would be to say that there is no hope and nothing you can do. Recognizing a dead end for what it is isn't actually pessimistic, it's just accepting reality. When the brake line has been cut at some point you gotta accept that hammering that pedal isn't actually gonna do anything and it's time to figure out something else. e: Though I won't judge someone either way for voting or not as long as they don't act like voting is some Big Accomplishment Yinlock fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 07:58
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Yinlock posted:Pessimism would be to say that there is no hope and nothing you can do. Recognizing a dead end for what it is isn't actually pessimistic, it's just accepting reality. Cause right now I'm too busy finding a new job to go to the pulpit as a joan-of-arc figure and inevitably get a martyr's bullet for my troubles, for daring to make a difference. argh
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Jun 25, 2022 08:02
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Grouchio posted:Okay for a second it felt like I was being told "there's nothing you can do besides vote; even if you invest/work/advocate for a group it won't be enough; fascism is inevitable" there. Yeah keeping people too busy just trying to survive so they can't even think about rebelling is one of the Features of capitalism. Nobody's gonna judge you for not personally leading the peoples' revolution, just saying that voting probably isn't gonna do anything.
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Jun 25, 2022 08:09
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Yinlock posted:It doesn't seem to actually be reducing harm, is the thing. Instead it just sends a giant message that you can be taken for granted. Like I can't show what it would look like if we gave the Republicans every office at the local, state and federal levels in every branch. But I believe it wouldn't look great. The best I can do is look at existing examples. When I look at blue states and red states, by progressive measures, life is better where the Democratic party wins. Obviously that's not all because of their policies and leadership (some of that is in spite of it), but still. Things could always be much, much worse.
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Jun 25, 2022 08:16
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Yinlock posted:Yeah keeping people too busy just trying to survive so they can't even think about rebelling is one of the Features of capitalism. Nobody's gonna judge you for not personally leading the peoples' revolution, just saying that voting probably isn't gonna do anything.
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Jun 25, 2022 08:32
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I struggle to imagine an outcome to the left rolling over and letting conservatives win that results in anything good. both at home and abroad (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 25, 2022 08:33
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Have Some Flowers! posted:I know we're all trying to process what we can do personally to affect this situation, right, and I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I don't have all the answers or fault anyone for how they're working through this today. But if it helps, where I land is that you can simultaneously believe that: Yinlock posted:It doesn't seem to actually be reducing harm, is the thing. Instead it just sends a giant message that you can be taken for granted. Mmm, the hypothesis that our present would be no different if in the past we'd just let Republicans win every elected position in government, is certainly an interesting one. Maybe a little unfair to Republicans though, I kind of feel like they've been working extra hard lately, to highlight the subtle differences in their policy priorities. Shall we test this hypothesis? No one votes for the Democrats in the upcoming mid-terms and we'll see if that leads to Democrats implementing more progressive policies.
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Jun 25, 2022 08:41
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I struggle to imagine an outcome to the left rolling over and letting conservatives win that results in anything good. both at home and abroad since you're describing the past 40 years of american politics i'd say that's a pretty safe statement. also i was looking it up in another thread and the last time the republicans had 60 seats in the senate was 1907, lol.
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Jun 25, 2022 08:43
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I struggle to imagine an outcome to the left rolling over and letting conservatives win that results in anything good. both at home and abroad The conservatives already won. Even with a stacked government the democrats are unable/unwilling to affect any meaningful change and infact can't even stop the rising tide of total fascism. Why keep voting for them if they are unwilling and unable to do the job. Let them get wiped out and either they adapt and start running candidates willing to do what is necessary, or nothing changed because conservatives already won either way. Giving democrats a pity vote because "At least they're not the other guy" is meaningless now that the supreme court is stacked. We're coming up on at least 8 solid years of republicans in total absolute control of every branch of the government, before there is even a hint of us having another democratic president. We just lost abortion rights, we're losing all LGBT rights next. Gay marriage will be gone along with any protection for trans people the second the court decides to move on that issue, which is soon given the statements they're releasing. Why keep voting for these useless old fucks. Just because "At least they're not the other guy" really isn't enough anymore.
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Jun 25, 2022 08:44
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I struggle to imagine an outcome to the left rolling over and letting conservatives win that results in anything good. both at home and abroad Well Democrats have helpfully provided a useful example of what would happen if the left did so. -Blackadder- posted:Mmm, the hypothesis that our present would be no different if in the past we'd just let Republicans win every elected position in government, is certainly an interesting one. Maybe a little unfair to Republicans though, I kind of feel like they've been working extra hard lately, to highlight the subtle differences in their policy priorities. You're right, I shudder to imagine the nightmare scenario of Republicans getting everything they want with no pushback whatsoever beyond pithy words. Also, voting for Democrats hasn't led to them implementing progressive policies or indeed doing anything besides punching left and grifting. I'm sure this time they'll be extremely grateful for leftist votes though. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 09:19
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Yinlock posted:Well Democrats have helpfully provided a useful example of what would happen if the left did so. I don't think we've even scratched the surface of how bad things can get.
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Jun 25, 2022 09:25
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Yinlock posted:Yeah keeping people too busy just trying to survive so they can't even think about rebelling is one of the Features of capitalism. Nobody's gonna judge you for not personally leading the peoples' revolution, just saying that voting probably isn't gonna do anything.
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Jun 25, 2022 09:42
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I struggle to imagine an outcome to the left rolling over and letting conservatives win that results in anything good. both at home and abroad Disingenuous as gently caress post. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 25, 2022 09:44
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Grouchio posted:Okay but did Majorian just say we're all hosed - he was a voice of reason in 2020 No. We're hosed if all we do is operate within the American electoral system, ie: VBNMW, donate $15 to Pelosi's email campaigns, volunteer for Democratic candidates, etc. We are not hosed if we operate outside of the system and take direct action. Again, I think people should vote if they think their votes can make a difference on a state or national level, and certainly in their local elections. We should use every tool at our disposal. But the lion's share of the impact that you can make in promoting a left-wing agenda is through direct action, not voting within the two-party system. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 09:52
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Majorian posted:No. We're hosed if all we do is operate within the American electoral system, ie: VBNMW, donate $15 to Pelosi's email campaigns, volunteer for Democratic candidates, etc. We are not hosed if we operate outside of the system and take direct action.
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Jun 25, 2022 09:55
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Grouchio posted:But who would take direct action when a mere canister of tear gas disperses a Phoenix AZ crowd? Has anyone in this country taken direct action? Was it done in 2018? Did we not perform rather well that year? Have there been any other congressmen besides AOC who are trying to fight against this with bite? A lot of folks are taking direct action as we speak! It's not all about protests, after all. The labor movement is back with a vengeance. Workplaces are unionizing like gangbusters, workers are refusing to go back to work in the wake of the pandemic, and left-wing groups are preparing funds and supplies for strikes. The American economy is already in a tight spot, and it hypothetically wouldn't take much disruption of commerce in a few strategic areas to grind it to a halt, if strikers are organized, disciplined, and well-supplied. Hypothetically, of course. I'm not saying it's a sure-fire path to luxury space communism or whatever, and it's guaranteed to be a tough struggle, but hey, it's got a better chance of working than electoralism at this point IMO.
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Jun 25, 2022 09:59
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Grouchio posted:But who among our effete younger generations would take direct action when a mere canister of tear gas disperses a Phoenix AZ crowd? Has anyone in this country taken direct action? Was it done in 2018? Did we not perform rather well that year? Have there been any other congressmen besides AOC who are trying to fight against this with bite? I've seen nothing but whimpering in the news all day! 1) Effete? Really? 2) People are. Increasing unionisation and denial of service, lock outs and other things are going to become increasingly common as time goes on. 3) You've seen nothing but whimpering from politicians. There are people doing more, getting angry, getting organised and, importantly, not being so obvious about it Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 10:00
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Josef bugman posted:1) Effete? Really? compared to the heyday of american labor organization in the 1930s and 40s you could make a case for describing the current generation as effete. it wouldn't necessarily be the word i'd choose, but you could definitely make a case for it.
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Jun 25, 2022 10:19
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Effete is just an incredible word choice on this day of all days. Really inspired.
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Jun 25, 2022 10:25
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Are we realy going to start generational blame games? I am not well read on this topic but I am pretty sure that is NOT solidarity.
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Jun 25, 2022 10:32
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Vox Nihili posted:Effete is just an incredible word choice on this day of all days. Really inspired. lol, i wasn't aware of that definition, that is pretty funny.
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Jun 25, 2022 10:32
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Grouchio posted:Have you been this pessimistic since Biden took office? Unless the Democrats pull some amazing 180-degree turnaround bullshit out of their asses, Biden's presidency is going to be Jimmy Carter all over again, but even worse.
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Jun 25, 2022 12:36
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I mean it seems more as if younger people are unionising, are making their voices heard and are standing up for things in both physical and material ways far more than previous ones have. However I just dislike "effete" being used as a term "feckless" is just as good and doesn't have the same connotations.
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Jun 25, 2022 12:40
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Grouchio posted:But who among our effete younger generations would take direct action when a mere canister of tear gas disperses a Phoenix AZ crowd? Has anyone in this country taken direct action? Was it done in 2018? Did we not perform rather well that year? Have there been any other congressmen besides AOC who are trying to fight against this with bite? I've seen nothing but whimpering in the news all day! Dude it's legitimately weird to see you here telling people they need to fight harder while telling people in the LAN thread that they shouldn't worry because they're in a blue state. Don't worry about judging people and just get out there.
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Jun 25, 2022 12:46
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I'm not being disingenuous here, how would codifying Roe v Wade have protected it from Republican bullshit? Wouldn't they have just removed the law at their earliest convenience, probably nuking the filibuster in the process if that's what it took? I can't see Trump/McConnell in 2016 not deleting that first day if Obama did do it.
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Jun 25, 2022 12:52
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Majorian posted:A lot of folks are taking direct action as we speak! It's not all about protests, after all. The labor movement is back with a vengeance. Workplaces are unionizing like gangbusters, workers are refusing to go back to work in the wake of the pandemic, and left-wing groups are preparing funds and supplies for strikes. The American economy is already in a tight spot, and it hypothetically wouldn't take much disruption of commerce in a few strategic areas to grind it to a halt, if strikers are organized, disciplined, and well-supplied. Hypothetically, of course. I'm not saying it's a sure-fire path to luxury space communism or whatever, and it's guaranteed to be a tough struggle, but hey, it's got a better chance of working than electoralism at this point IMO. ??  We're at like 2-4% of the strikes and work stoppages that we were in the 1960s and 1970s and before. scale of people involved is also hugely down as is total % of people in unions. (1960s and 70s were seeing ~300-400 strikes per year, last decade has averaged about 15 per year. https://www.bls.gov/web/wkstp/annual-listing.htm Like yeah there's some promising news about unions getting their first toeholds lately, but american labor is in an exceedingly rough spot by pretty much any analysis.
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Jun 25, 2022 12:53
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Bellmaker posted:I'm not being disingenuous here, how would codifying Roe v Wade have protected it from Republican bullshit? Wouldn't they have just removed the law at their earliest convenience, probably nuking the filibuster in the process if that's what it took? I can't see Trump/McConnell in 2016 not deleting that first day if Obama did do it. It wouldn’t, and even without congress nothing would stop the SC from ruling any laws protecting abortion unconstitutional. Edit: like, if this can be fixed, and that’s a big if, it’ll be a generation long project. That doesn’t mean the Dems shouldn’t have done their part to move the ball as opposed to doing nothing of substance and even working against the issue cause they were all betting the GOP wouldn’t go this far. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 12:59
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Bel Shazar posted:Incorrect. Not voting shrinks the overall vote pool making majority easier to reach. If voting for the viable lesser of two evils is one whole vote that the greater must overcome to win, the lack of voting at all acts like a oartial vote in their favor. No, that doesn't make any sense.
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Jun 25, 2022 13:08
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Herstory Begins Now posted:We're at like 2-4% of the strikes and work stoppages that we were in the 1960s and 1970s and before. scale of people involved is also hugely down as is total % of people in unions. (1960s and 70s were seeing ~300-400 strikes per year, last decade has averaged about 15 per year. https://www.bls.gov/web/wkstp/annual-listing.htm Those will go up and, since Just In Time has become such a major part of every major retailer, this will continue to cause far worse problems for far more people.
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Jun 25, 2022 13:11
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I struggle to imagine an outcome to the left rolling over and letting conservatives win that results in anything good. both at home and abroad Not in the immediate future. But if you can imagine anything good happening in the immediate future by voting for the Democratic party then I don't think you have a good grasp on American politics. Pulling support for the Democratic party at least has the potential to force the Democrats to change and actually become an effective party. Continuing to vote for the Democratic party just rewards them for being rolling over and accepting everything the Republicans have done. Herstory Begins Now posted:?? The labor movement is growing, there is genuine potential for labor to become a significant power in American politics again. That is one of the few potential sources for positive political change.
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Jun 25, 2022 13:17
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Josef bugman posted:I mean it seems more as if younger people are unionising, are making their voices heard and are standing up for things in both physical and material ways far more than previous ones have. The return of unions and the increasing support for them among the younger generation (and people from older generations) does give me some hope for the future. Unions work (they're basically the ONLY thing that works when it comes to getting better working conditions) and the more people come to accept this as truth the better.
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Jun 25, 2022 13:21
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Gripweed posted:Not in the immediate future. But if you can imagine anything good happening in the immediate future by voting for the Democratic party then I don't think you have a good grasp on American politics. where have i said anything even remotely like this? Gripweed posted:The labor movement is growing, there is genuine potential for labor to become a significant power in American politics again. That is one of the few potential sources for positive political change. I'm optimistic about its current trajectory in spite of the bleak charts and numbers, but how is the labor movement going to survive total republican control?
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Jun 25, 2022 13:24
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Herstory Begins Now posted:where have i said anything even remotely like this? In response to people saying we need to stop voting for Democrats, you said that would lead to nothing good. So the logical inference is that you believed voting for Democrats could lead to something good. Herstory Begins Now posted:I'm optimistic about its current trajectory in spite of the bleak charts and numbers, but how is the labor movement going to survive total republican control? It survived the Lochner era, it survived when unions were literally illegal. Read up on your labor history, times have been much, much worse for labor than they are now.
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Jun 25, 2022 13:28
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Significantly, a major political figure who has largely faded from public view recently has decided now is the time to return and lead the people hungry for political change https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1540524746995007490?s=20&t=J6sMsYF3bYUgri6_YVZlkg
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Jun 25, 2022 13:30
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Gripweed posted:In response to people saying we need to stop voting for Democrats, you said that would lead to nothing good. So the logical inference is that you believed voting for Democrats could lead to something good. No, I think people are deluding themselves about what full right wing control of this country looks like. The most charitable thing I'll generally say about dems is that they're maybe a speedbump to some of the worst things that the right wants to do. Personally I don't care who anyone does or does not vote or agitate for. Gripweed posted:It survived the Lochner era, it survived when unions were literally illegal. Read up on your labor history, times have been much, much worse for labor than they are now. Yes it has survived literally being massacred. However 1) I think there's no guarantee it survives literal massacres again and 2) I would prefer the far right not get to do what they want to do the left, which is a lot worse than merely make things illegal. Just a week ago people in this thread were saying that leftist organization has been impossible to gain traction with because police killings and other violence were so disruptive and discouraging. Currently they're targeted primarily by local cops and far right 'vigilantes' or militia idiots how is that going to work when it's the full might of the federal government?
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Jun 25, 2022 13:35
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Bellmaker posted:I'm not being disingenuous here, how would codifying Roe v Wade have protected it from Republican bullshit? Wouldn't they have just removed the law at their earliest convenience, probably nuking the filibuster in the process if that's what it took? I can't see Trump/McConnell in 2016 not deleting that first day if Obama did do it. It wouldn’t have done poo poo. This same right wing Supreme Court would have decided that Congress lacks the power to mandate legal abortion. This entire codification discourse is a red herring raised in the hope that you will overlook the plain truth that the moment to stop this came and went in November 2016. Many of the mouth breathers now blaming Obama and Biden for what 6 Supreme Court justices appointed by Republican presidents have done told us at that time that it didn’t really matter who won that election, and they need to distract people from how unbelievably wrong they were. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 25, 2022 13:57
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Gripweed posted:No, that doesn't make any sense. There are 11 people and 2 candidates. Everyone votes. It takes 6 votes to win. The greater evil gets 5 votes. The lesser evil wins. There are 11 people and 2 candidates. 2 people refuse to vote. It takes 5 votes to win. The greater evil wins with 5 votes. Shrinking the voting pool makes it easier for whoever wins to win.
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Jun 25, 2022 14:14
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Herstory Begins Now posted:No, I think people are deluding themselves about what full right wing control of this country looks like. The most charitable thing I'll generally say about dems is that they're maybe a speedbump to some of the worst things that the right wants to do. Personally I don't care who anyone does or does not vote or agitate for. I don’t think people are deluding themselves at all. They just don’t want to support the Democrats who have shown themselves to be ineffectual time and time again. The democrats are literally in control of Congress and the White House but can’t pass abortion rights, voting rights, healthcare reform, LGBT civil rights, and so on. The promises of 2020 election have been broken. Then you have the democrats actively being hostile to the left. The old fossils of the party try to push feckless empty suits on people when the voter energy is focused on the progressives. They refuse to foster any kind of progressive movement within the party and react badly to any kind of leftist insurgency in the party. Right now, the Dems aren’t even producing a plan of what they will do if they retain control of Congress. The only plan they have is for us to donate money and to vote in November. I don’t understand why people have to fight so hard for a party that is entirely disconnected from the people’s plights. Down on the ground, we know that we are heading for some bad times that will hurt a lot of people. But the Dems don’t share that feeling. They will be alright and protected by their class and status. They will continue to be friends with the ones who are taking our rights away. I don’t even think they act as a speed bump to the GOP. Part of the reason why were in this mess is because the democrats have failed over and over to pass abortion rights and all other sorts of things in the intervening years. poo poo, the democrats are responsible for creating the whole cloture two-track system that is being abused. This is obviously my personal opinion, but the Democratic Party is just a series of own-goals
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Jun 25, 2022 14:20
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theCalamity posted:The democrats are literally in control of Congress No they aren't, not really. The Democrats have effective control of a 48-seat minority of the Senate. 2 people who can't be blocked from running in the Democratic primary and who choose to call themselves Democrats are in favor of doing nothing. No one has control of congress, it lies mostly dead and dormant. You can't take the views of those two idiots and attach them to the entire party. Maybe the average uneducated voter who doesn't know anything might, but you presumably are more informed. Rigel fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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