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The Voice of Labor posted:the alterations to dee are what I find the most objectionable. setting dee up as a kantian superman is kinda dumb and gross and given the times, arguably morally culpable. in the comic, dreams weren't presented as a contradiction to truth, they were held as a contradiction to reality, with dreams being individually true or false. harming people to make them more honest is a poo poo m.o. for a villain to have, honesty and truth are poor things to demonize especially in an age of alternative facts. karen's dream of living in a world without "critical race theory", where climate change and covid aren't real, don't define her as a human, they define her as a nitwit. better for dee to unleash horrors on the world because the ruby broke his brain and leave it at that. or have some actual verity and have him unleashing horrors on the world because his brain was broken by oan and fourchan this website never stops delivering when it comes to media takes
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Aug 11, 2022 20:59
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The Voice of Labor posted:I am not displeased with the adaptation for making everyone black and a woman in order to modernize it. The thing that bothered me a little bit with the black characters is that none of the scripts mention their race whatsoever and the thing that bothered me a whole lot is that the production is often crap at filming darker skin, especially when it moves away from the most expensive closed sets. It felt like very surface level representation.
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Aug 11, 2022 21:35
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High Warlord Zog posted:The thing that bothered me a little bit with the black characters is that none of the scripts mention their race whatsoever and the thing that bothered me a whole lot is that the production is often crap at filming darker skin, especially when it moves away from the most expensive closed sets. It felt like very surface level representation. I don't understand this post at all, honestly. The characters looked fine?
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Aug 11, 2022 22:43
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between Netflix and the sheer weight of adapting it, i thought this might totally suck, and it doesn't. nice. thanks. but how is the discourse going
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Aug 12, 2022 00:54
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AlternateNu posted:I don't understand this post at all, honestly. The characters looked fine? CONSTANTINE'S JACKET, HOWEVER, DID NOT
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Aug 12, 2022 00:55
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:
Lotta folk seem mad they "made" the show so gay, but I assume that means they aren't super familiar with the source material, which is pretty goddamn gay.
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Aug 12, 2022 01:02
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AlternateNu posted:I don't understand this post at all, honestly. The characters looked fine? I think they're referencing the fact that darker skin films differently than lighter skin, and a lot of the lighting may have been tailored towards lighter skin (I have no idea if this is true regarding the filming, just what I think is being said). Gambit from the X-Men posted:CONSTANTINE'S JACKET, HOWEVER, DID NOT This, however, is spot on
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Aug 12, 2022 01:41
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:I think they're referencing the fact that darker skin films differently than lighter skin, and a lot of the lighting may have been tailored towards lighter skin (I have no idea if this is true regarding the filming, just what I think is being said). I guess. Times like this, I'm just glad I have a near-zero sense of visual aesthetics because whenever I see people complaining about how something looks, I can only imagine how much of a nightmare it must be otherwise. poo poo has to be actively horrendous for me to pick up on it.
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Aug 12, 2022 02:05
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The complaint about Constantine's jacket is a fair one, among other things. I started my first re-read of the series in like two decades and I forgot just how gritty nearly everything in the series is (mostly due to the early artists) and the show is very bright and polished and very CLEAN in comparison. Even Hell.
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Aug 12, 2022 04:06
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I thought this was as perfect an adaptation of The Sandman as we could possibly expect in TYOOL 2022, probably much better than any we could have gotten earlier, and most of the tweaks done to update the story for television twenty years in the future are all fine. Matthew has been a bit annoying though, for example. The actress from the Good Place playing Death is killing it. It's definitely a bit less gritty and yuppier than the comic as well, like other posters have mentioned, but idk. That just feels like the inevitable Hollywood treatment to me, not that it's a good thing. Tosk fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Aug 12, 2022 |
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Aug 12, 2022 04:18
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:CONSTANTINE'S JACKET, HOWEVER, DID NOT Oh YEAH
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Aug 12, 2022 05:51
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Tosk posted:It's definitely a bit less gritty and yuppier than the comic as well, like other posters have mentioned, but idk. That just feels like the inevitable Hollywood treatment to me, not that it's a good thing. I don't really mind this but if the cast of A Game of You isn't broke as poo poo then I'm gonna be pissed.
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Aug 12, 2022 05:53
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the I don't like dogs lady will be a 20 something trust fund vagrant
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Aug 12, 2022 06:12
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:CONSTANTINE'S JACKET, HOWEVER, DID NOT IT DID THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT
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Aug 12, 2022 06:18
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My Lovely Horse posted:IT DID THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT REMEMBER THAT WE'RE ahem. Sorry. Remember that we're effectively at issue 16 of a possible 75. Morpheus has just got back into the world and there is plenty of time for the people who come into contact with him to have their lives - and their jackets - ruined.
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Aug 12, 2022 07:02
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Finished the show, loved it. This is probably sacrilege to some fans of the comic, but enjoyed this way more than the source material. The comic is probably objectively better, I mean it just has some great art in it, but it was great to get to experience what I like about Sandman again without stuff that really brings it down to me. The horror is so eye rolley in the early bits, and frankly the comic can be pretty weird about LGBT people. Corinthian is way cooler. He actually gets to be openly gay instead of some repressed killer motif. John Dee is way more compelling as a character and 24/7 as a whole is improved. No threats of rape against the lesbian character, and then immediately showing her forced to take part in an orgy with everyone. They also changed the character who made those rape threats in comic to just being gay which worked way better for his secret than the cigarette thing. Cereal Convention I still find a bit weak but the bits where they play it for comedy work more than in the comic. And while The Connoisseur is there he doesn't have his thing about only targeting pre op trans women, which has like... added nothing. The show isn't perfect, I'll mirror what others said about it being too clean. Not just in grit but like, it really lacks a certain artsy, which considering the constantly changing looks of the comic feels like a misstep. But overall I am just really happy with this. Game of You is an arc I just absolutely hate but considering how much the changes so far work for me, I am genuinely excited for it. Also everyone is right about Constantine needing to be more disheveled. We need more disheveled women representation!!! There is never enough!!!
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Aug 12, 2022 08:41
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Snooze Cruise posted:Also everyone is right about Constantine needing to be more disheveled. We need more disheveled women representation!!! There is never enough!!! Jessica Jones did it beautifully without diminishing the character's strength.
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Aug 12, 2022 10:47
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:Lotta folk seem mad they "made" the show so gay, but I assume that means they aren't super familiar with the source material, which is pretty goddamn gay. The original comics were quite literally the first time young me saw trans people being shown as -characters- instead of freaks to be laughed at (brazilian television/news was not kind on LGBT+ in the late 80s and early 90s), not to mention gay/lesbian relationships being just relationships, being able to last until both are old coots or facing the stresses and daily trials of any other romantic dynamic. So yeah, we know the crop of Quartering greasy nerds will use anything to snap and keep their aggrieved circle-jerk going, but this one is particularly pathetic. If someone remade Rocky Horror Picture Show into a series or cartoon, they'd say Dr. Frank M Furter is queering it all up and distorting the original trad integrity.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:10
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Snooze Cruise posted:Finished the show, loved it. This is probably sacrilege to some fans of the comic, but enjoyed this way more than the source material. The comic is probably objectively better, I mean it just has some great art in it, but it was great to get to experience what I like about Sandman again without stuff that really brings it down to me. The horror is so eye rolley in the early bits, and frankly the comic can be pretty weird about LGBT people. Honestly I don't even know if the comic can be called objectively superior, at least for the parts that have been covered so far; the beginning of the comic has a lot of weak parts and I think the show gives it a real run for its money. It leaves off around the point where the comic really starts coming into its stride and I doubt that any future seasons would be able to keep up, but I look forward to the attempt. I am going to be annoyed if they yuppify A Game of You though.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:30
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:Lotta folk seem mad they "made" the show so gay, but I assume that means they aren't super familiar with the source material, which is pretty goddamn gay. Was kind of stretching the envelope for how gay something written by a straight dude could be, in the 90s.
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Aug 12, 2022 18:03
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Not to be a smarty pants, but in the battle between Lucifer and Dream, I wondered if Lucifer could’ve countered Dream becoming Hope with Lucifer becoming Time. Also, I agree with the other goon who said we should’ve gotten a nod to Darkseid with the Anti-life scene.
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Aug 12, 2022 18:36
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ruddiger posted:Not to be a smarty pants, but in the battle between Lucifer and Dream, I wondered if Lucifer could’ve countered Dream becoming Hope with Lucifer becoming Time. In the context of some of the later Lucifer comics, I would have said something like Destiny as something that could plausibly destroy hope. Still, that answer would be alien to Lucifer's own nature/ideology, so the win is still legit. I'm fine with no Darkseid. Lucifer in the Vertigo verse would eat that jumped-up anthropomorphic personification alive. DJ_Mindboggler fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Aug 12, 2022 |
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Aug 12, 2022 18:53
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ruddiger posted:Not to be a smarty pants, but in the battle between Lucifer and Dream, I wondered if Lucifer could’ve countered Dream becoming Hope with Lucifer becoming Time. nope. the "I am hope" thing does double duty. it wins the game and it's also the owned by facts and logic thing that allows dream to leave hell unchallenged. the damned dreaming of heaven is hope. the fight made more sense in the comic where it's dream and chorizon fighting. dream had the petty little demon figured out after a move or two, knew he could trap him with the shift from material things to conceptual things and did. fighting lucifer added some dramatic tension, like, hey maybe dream won't be able to defeat one of the most powerful beings in creation, but I think dream besting lucifer doesn't really square with their comparative intelligence, force of will or general power levels. like, when someone who has the education and mental development of a 12 year old can rightfully chide dream about him clearly not being very bright, the plausibility of dream besting the most intelligent of the angels in a battle of wits is pretty much null
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Aug 12, 2022 19:11
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ruddiger posted:Not to be a smarty pants, but in the battle between Lucifer and Dream, I wondered if Lucifer could’ve countered Dream becoming Hope with Lucifer becoming Time.. That would be a trap, considering Dream is of the Endless and thus outside Time.
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Aug 12, 2022 19:11
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Beside, it's well known that hope springs eternal
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Aug 12, 2022 19:18
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The Voice of Labor posted:
A big thing with this comic is that the various beings are trapped by their mindsets and rules. So it doesn't matter how smart Lucifer is, she still wouldn't think of something that would eat hope.
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Aug 12, 2022 19:50
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The Voice of Labor posted:nope. the "I am hope" thing does double duty. it wins the game and it's also the owned by facts and logic thing that allows dream to leave hell unchallenged. the damned dreaming of heaven is hope. While I have other issues with how the scene was handled in the show (gently caress off Matthew, now is not your time) I think it works as a display of overconfidence. Even in the comic Lucifer gets outmaneuvered when he tries to threaten Dream, so it's already established that Lucifer has blind spots that Dream can exploit.
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Aug 12, 2022 20:13
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Pretty much, of course, the comic has the 'advantage' that Morpheus fights Choronzon, a real demon, who by default does NOT play defense and always goes for the bigger, scarier double down every time, to the point in which he paints himself into a corner and gets metaphysically punched in the neck.* *= There is a meme going on here in which Lucifer just counters "I am hope" with "I am Brazil" and Dream just flops to the ground dead . I'd post it here but...spoilers.
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Aug 12, 2022 20:25
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Yeah, one thing I did like in the comic was that it explained Dream's reasoning. But the show is trying to minimize internal monologues, and it's not like Dream could stop to have a sidebar with Matthew mid-contest. Also, something I never really appreciated: Lucifer has Dream's escort detour to show him Nada in an attempt to rattle him, but it doesn't really work because Dream doesn't have much of a conscience and fails to register that he's even done anything wrong. So it is foreshadowed in some ways that Lucifer has completely misjudged Dream.
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Aug 12, 2022 20:39
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the holy poopacy posted:
Or the escort does it to further torment Nada, having Dream passing by her after 10 000 years only to tell her that he hasn't forgiven her. As Dream says, a demon has rarely just one reason for what they do.
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Aug 12, 2022 21:03
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the holy poopacy posted:Yeah, one thing I did like in the comic was that it explained Dream's reasoning. But the show is trying to minimize internal monologues, and it's not like Dream could stop to have a sidebar with Matthew mid-contest. On a rewatch of that episode last night I also noticed Nada calls out to Dream as he leaves that she won't lose hope, so it's quite possible Lucifer's attempt to rattle Dream led him right to the winning shot
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Aug 12, 2022 21:10
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Finally made it to episode 5, and it's actually, genuinely, extremely good both as an hour of TV and as an adaptation, like everyone said it was. I'm very happy with it, it's how every episode so far should have been. I think it works so well because while the other episodes basically took their respective comic issues' scripts, and inserted, removed and changed only single aspects for TV, this one felt more like someone wrote a coherent TV episode from the ground up, still keeping it heavily and very recognizably based on the comic issue, but without feeling the need to exactly replicate it, and thus making it a more well-rounded, complete thing in itself. Excellent stuff.
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Aug 12, 2022 21:16
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My Lovely Horse posted:Finally made it to episode 5, and it's actually, genuinely, extremely good both as an hour of TV and as an adaptation, like everyone said it was. I'm very happy with it, it's how every episode so far should have been. John's motivation in the show is so much more interesting than the comics "he's an escaped Justice League villain with Dream's Ruby and he's CRAZY" so I love that they restructured the story from the ground up as you say to make it more than just a horror show, but something that makes you care about what happens to these people. And then it goes right back to being incredibly faithful for the showdown between John and Dream (Including a shot in the comic that I had zero confidence would be done in the show but they did it and it looked amazing)(
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Aug 12, 2022 21:22
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Reading the issue back I do kinda wish they'd kept Dino the Dinosaur.
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Aug 12, 2022 21:29
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Snooze Cruise posted:And while The Connoisseur is there he doesn't have his thing about only targeting pre op trans women, which has like... added nothing. Wait what
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Aug 12, 2022 22:32
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Ague Proof posted:Wait what Yeah 
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Aug 12, 2022 22:40
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Finished the show yesterday. Overall I'm quite positive on it- definitely the strongest adaptation I've seen in a while. 5 and 6 are the obvious standout episodes, and that did not come as a surprise. The Sound of Her Wings is some of the best material in the comic, and, while weaker, 24 Hours is such obvious bottle episode material it practically flies off the page. And, y'know, they killed the adaptation. No frills, barely any effects, just seven actors in a room and a rock-solid fundamentals. And then we're off again into cgi void for the climax, whatever. The other episodes range from "fine" to "pretty good, actually". The floor is pretty high here, and honestly I find that more impressive than the level overall. The casting is a consistent joy- Death is perfect, Stephen Fry is Gilbert, whoever's voicing Marv has him exact and I let out an honest to God cheer when the spider women showed up in all their glory (minor nitpick: could have done with more spiders). Hal is a delight. I'm less sold on Abel and Cain and I don't know that I would have asked Sturridge to look quite so close to tears in quite so many scenes (all of them), but I'm sure they'll endear themselves to me in time. Rose is bubblier than I imagine the character, but sure. Mise-en-scene was on a range. It's certainly fair to say that a live action production could never have managed to match the visual flair of the original, but I cannot help but feel like it could have pushed the boundaries out further than it did. Particularly with the Dollhouse dreams in the second arc- like, the decision to take Ken's sex/money/power dreams, so harsh and grotesque as to appear almost inhuman, to... that, is... a choice. The spider women's, too, are flatter to the point of actively harming their characterisation- they're both just kind of kooky, there's none of the radical reconfiguration of form that tells you just how central this is to Chantal's character, nothing to replicate the panicky-bordering-on-hysterical lettering on Zelda's to tell you how closely she's skirting a full-blown breakdown. There's not the climax, for gently caress's sake. And when you don't have any of that, the moment where Zelda pulls Chantal out her spiral and grounds her is... just something that happens. Ack. I'm serious, these dreams in the cmic tell you so much about these characters and their relationship in the space of like two and a half pages it is unreal. I've made myself mad writing about it. The Threshold, by contrast, was a real highlight- from the micrometre-perfect exterior shot of Desire to the liquid-smooth interior. The cod-stop motion effect on Marv I liked, I appreciate the conceit. The cgi otherwise was... what it is. I'm not the practical effects-only hardliner that a lot of people seem to be but there were definitely moments watching this where I noticed myself feeling that the artificiality of the backgrounds detracted from rather than enhanced the otherworldliness of the scene. Counter-intuitive! Some of the backgrounds I did like- loved the detailing on the gate of the Dreaming (and did note that it looked like it could plausibly be made of horn or ivory, which is fun). Hell had some striking shots, but on the whole suffered from a palette that is mostly grey on black. That's certainly on theme, but it is nigh impossible to make visually engaging. As far as the choices made in adapting the plot- I am by and large neutral to positive on the majority. Some I quibble with but have no serious objection to. Some I really didn't like. The expansion of the Corinthian's role to season villain just did not pan out at all. It started off not great and by the time he showed up to give Dee a coat and gently caress off again in episode 4 it was very obvious that there was just nothing for him to do in this role. The story had no space in it for the role they wanted to give him and they made no attempt to rework it to make space for it. So much of his screentime is given over to redundant exposition, or just reminding you the character exists, it drags on the pacing and I think it speaks to a lack of confidence in the material- they really wanted a season hook they could put up on a neon sign to end the first episode and missing nightmares was it, I guess. Not a fan. Snooze Cruise posted:John Dee is way more compelling as a character Hmm. I think I have to dissent some. Not that I have any particular attachment to the original character- he's just, like, this little terror goblin, whatever- but I did not find the show's version particularly compelling either. In fact, I think I need to take issue with this- TheBigBudgetSequel posted:John's motivation in the show is so much more interesting than the comics "he's an escaped Justice League villain with Dream's Ruby and he's CRAZY" Because... well, he is just a guy the ruby drove mad. That is... still the character. Thewlis grants him a dignity and gravitas that the terror goblin lacked, but nothing substantive has changed. He's nuts, he's hurting people because he's nuts, and the ruby drove him nuts. He says some boilerplate stuff about lies and whatever, but nothing particularly interesting. I don't find it interesting, the show didn't find it interesting, the conclusion is "nah mate"- this is terror goblin with extra steps. I don't know if we actually lose anything by the change. Maybe a little insofar as, on the page, Dee is so wretched and so small that in the moment Morpheus spares him he does look genuinely pitiable, while Thewlis... does not. But yeah nothing huge. Anyway, actually pretty excited for the next season. Don't say that very often, these days.
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Aug 13, 2022 01:40
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:, whoever's voicing Marv has him exact You might know him from a few indie sf movies from the 70's mark hamill
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Aug 13, 2022 01:46
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:Mise-en-scene was on a range. It's certainly fair to say that a live action production could never have managed to match the visual flair of the original, but I cannot help but feel like it could have pushed the boundaries out further than it did. Particularly with the Dollhouse dreams in the second arc- like, the decision to take Ken's sex/money/power dreams, so harsh and grotesque as to appear almost inhuman, to... that, is... a choice. The spider women's, too, are flatter to the point of actively harming their characterisation- they're both just kind of kooky, there's none of the radical reconfiguration of form that tells you just how central this is to Chantal's character, nothing to replicate the panicky-bordering-on-hysterical lettering on Zelda's to tell you how closely she's skirting a full-blown breakdown. There's not the climax, for gently caress's sake. And when you don't have any of that, the moment where Zelda pulls Chantal out her spiral and grounds her is... just something that happens. Ack. I'm serious, these dreams in the cmic tell you so much about these characters and their relationship in the space of like two and a half pages it is unreal. I've made myself mad writing about it. I agree, the Dollhouse dream sequence lost a lot of it's characterization without the unique speech bubbles/empathetic environments. If you're going to cut the narration text inserts you have to double down on visual storytelling.
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Aug 13, 2022 02:47
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binged this sucker. beautiful and gets its hooks in you. My sister got me some of the first few books, I read em a long time ago so I'm not sure what all is different precisely. skipping through the thread I can see that most people agree the Patton casting is terrible. takes me out of it every time. "dreams don't loving die" or whatever almost caused me to vomit my barf everywhere. Episode 6 I think has like no Matthew, and it's that much better for it. He got to be the drat rat a tooey, I don't want to be picturing his round face in the drat recording booth everytime the main character's sidekick speaks
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