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Lockback posted:While Doncic helped his team his rookie year Dallas still only mustered 33 wins, so it's not like he made them competitive. If we was on a actual competitive team they probably would have had to play him in a much smaller role. Usually it's the stuff that doesn't show on the box score that is a drag from rookies. That's because high draft picks always end up on lovely teams that need more than a star to be competitive unless they got there by having their best player(s) miss the majority of the season
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Aug 9, 2022 14:48
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Paul Zuvella posted:Joel Embiid had two years of nba training, workouts, coaching, and support before he played a single minute of basketball. Fast Luck fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Aug 9, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 14:55
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Lockback posted:I mean, sure rookies can be good but you notice in all your examples none of them played a big roll on a team that was particularly successful.
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Aug 9, 2022 14:57
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Fast Luck posted:It also stands to reason that guys like Cade and Jalen could've finished as positive contributors if the teams they were on had better players around them and prioritized wins over giving them experience from day one.
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Aug 9, 2022 15:05
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IcePhoenix posted:That's because high draft picks always end up on lovely teams that need more than a star to be competitive unless they got there by having their best player(s) miss the majority of the season Good players come in late in the draft too, its not unusual at all. But it still usually takes them a season or two to get good or to play larger roles.
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Aug 9, 2022 15:14
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Fast Luck posted:Okay, but look at least season for example. Neither #1 pick Cade Cunningham nor #2 pick Jalen Green finished positive in both VORP and WS. However, a basketball-reference query shows there were twenty rookies who did. That's pretty many, and like in most seasons there were a couple who were significantly positive (Mobley and Barnes). It also stands to reason that guys like Cade and Jalen could've finished as positive contributors if the teams they were on had better players around them and prioritized wins over giving them experience from day one. My point isn’t that all rookies suck, it’s that they usually suck. Sure, rookies can contribute positively but none of us actually know who the ones who are going to be and we’re the ones voting on teams. Also being Vorp/ws positive is an extremely low bar to clear. There were literally 44 qualified players with negative winshares in the entire league last year. 7% of all qualified players. Turns out when teams can only put 5 dudes on the court at the same time there isn’t a ton of room to play non-replacement level players Paul Zuvella fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Aug 9, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 15:14
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Yeah, positive winshare doesn't mean you're good or that you're even worth your minutes. A team of guys who are at 0 winshare will go...0-82.
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Aug 9, 2022 15:15
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Lockback posted:Good players come in late in the draft too, its not unusual at all. But it still usually takes them a season or two to get good or to play larger roles. Yeah but those players are given lesser roles and given time to grow because they're drafted onto a team that doesn't need them to immediately contribute
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Aug 9, 2022 15:17
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All I’m saying is that the assumption should be that Paolo Banchero is going to come in and be anywhere “bad with flashes of brilliance” to “surprisingly good”. The odds of him being an all star are extremely low.
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Aug 9, 2022 15:25
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IcePhoenix posted:Yeah but those players are given lesser roles and given time to grow because they're drafted onto a team that doesn't need them to immediately contribute ...and why do you think those rookies are given lesser roles and time to grow? Do you think coaches and GMs are blind to their skills or do you think rookies tend to need time to grow and time to develop before they can be contributors on a competitive team?
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Aug 9, 2022 15:25
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Lockback posted:...and why do you think those rookies are given lesser roles and time to grow? Because they were drafted lower than the top picks so aren't as good or are more of a project, thus not ready to contribute right away, probably. Paul Zuvella posted:All I’m saying is that the assumption should be that Paolo Banchero is going to come in and be anywhere “bad with flashes of brilliance” to “surprisingly good”. The odds of him being an all star are extremely low. this is still a good take though
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Aug 9, 2022 15:27
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Deadbeat Dad, thanks for running this whole thing, it’s been a ton of fun. Is there a charity you like that we can donate to as part of a thank you? Maybe a women’s shelter because of that horrible Charlotte player that was disqualified?
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Aug 9, 2022 15:29
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I think it's also interesting to note that terms growth and development occur in so many areas, right? I often make the mistake of perceiving player growth and development in some mental and/or emotional context almost by default , i.e. "I know you love jacking up these long twos but they aren't what this offense needs from you" or "this team wins more games with you on the second unit" etc., but for so many younger players there's this huge physical growth in the mid-20s. I think it's easy (for me, anyway) to overlook that as a fan because most of us see these guys almost exclusively on TV, and mostly from the perspective of a camera thirty feet away from the action, and it's just not the same as seeing em up close and in person. The example I'm thinking of is the beat guys up here in Portland all talking about how Nassir Little is so much bigger coming into this season, and not the 10 lbs of muscle canard, just like 20 lbs heavier, and not just because he's in the gym, but because he's a physical freak who just turned 22 and that's what physical freak bodies do in their early 20s if you take care of yourself. It also takes a lot of guys a couple years to make some decisions about how to approach their careers, like having the maturity to realize that if you want to be your best, it's time to ditch the cheeseburgers and start drinking those lovely protein shakes your trainer's always telling you to drink or whatever. Some guys may not even be able to approach that decision until they have a couple years under their belt and determine that they really do want to make those sacrifices etc. I dunno what the overarching point is here, just observing that when I read/think about player growth/development I have to remind myself that that encompasses like a whole array of tangible and intangible metrics that have different floors/ceilings and progress at different rates for each player. It's physical, mental, emotional, maturity, self-discipline, endurance, all these different spectrums for improvement, and it's crazy to expect even the most promising prospects to be moving all of em simultaneously in a rookie campaign, especially when some of em aren't even entirely in a 19-year-old's control.
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Aug 9, 2022 16:34
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JackBandit posted:Deadbeat Dad, thanks for running this whole thing, it’s been a ton of fun. Is there a charity you like that we can donate to as part of a thank you? Maybe a women’s shelter because of that horrible Charlotte player that was disqualified? ye I'll do that too
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Aug 9, 2022 16:43
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Doltos posted:ye I'll do that too same here
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Aug 9, 2022 16:45
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I think this is largely right. The biggest stuff is: 1. The physical tools to play an NBA season (which requires so much more endurance and resilience than anything else they've ever done). This is definitely true of players who may not even be done growing yet. 2. To be able to adjust to the speed of NBA opponents 3. To have the mental tools to adjust to a new role (you're probably not The Guy), the season grind, and to adjust to playing with people with 2x+ the years of basketball experience. That's all stuff that takes time to get up to speed with.
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Aug 9, 2022 17:21
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I thought I'd be higher in the bid gaps with my Embiid bid, surprised to see it was my $7 on TLC. NO REGRETS.
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Aug 9, 2022 18:07
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In the past we’ve done a couple of votes, best team overall, best team this year, team best set up for the future, team with most winners etc
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Aug 9, 2022 19:07
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Deadbeat Dad posted:
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Aug 9, 2022 19:14
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I feel like it's time to acknowledge the quality and consistency of the various Barkley gifs distributed across this thread
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Aug 9, 2022 20:09
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Lockback posted:Yeah, positive winshare doesn't mean you're good or that you're even worth your minutes. A team of guys who are at 0 winshare will go...0-82. Yep. Which is why I regret several of my earlier bids for rotation players. OTOH, even without my last two spots filled I'm at 41 win shares, so I'm still basically a bubble playoff team and given that I have zero idea of what I'm doing making the play-in would be an outright success.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:24
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Fast Luck posted:Will there be a lot of never-listed guys we can claim after the last day? It seems like there's 50+ worthy players yet to be listed There will be some guys that just aren't listed in the free agent waivers and then also the last day is going to have more players in general.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:55
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JackBandit posted:Deadbeat Dad, thanks for running this whole thing, it’s been a ton of fun. Is there a charity you like that we can donate to as part of a thank you? Maybe a women’s shelter because of that horrible Charlotte player that was disqualified? Hey, no problem! And honestly if anybody knows of any good ones and can recommend some charities, any of those will do just fine!
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Aug 9, 2022 21:56
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Will start closer to 7:30 tonight so anyone who still needs to send bids, try to within the next 30 mins
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Aug 9, 2022 23:54
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I’m gonna right now poo poo lol
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Aug 10, 2022 00:30
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 Day 17 bids have been calculated and we will begin yet another day of won players! Starting with the undrafted guys. These players cannot be picked up until the last few days of the bids which will be a first come, first serve sort of thing. I will announce when it's possible.
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Aug 10, 2022 00:37
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  TyTy Washington Jr. has gone unbidded on and will be able to be claimed during the last few days of bidding (it will be announced publicly closer to the date). Khalife Diop has gone unbidded on and will be able to be claimed during the last few days of bidding (it will be announced publicly closer to the date). Kris Dunn has gone unbidded on and will be able to be claimed during the last few days of bidding (it will be announced publicly closer to the date). Sam Hauser has gone unbidded on and will be able to be claimed during the last few days of bidding (it will be announced publicly closer to the date). Chris Chiozza has gone unbidded on and will be able to be claimed during the last few days of bidding (it will be announced publicly closer to the date).
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Aug 10, 2022 00:39
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  The Miami Heat (Carlosologist) have signed Jake LaRavia for $1. (The next highest bid was $0.)
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Aug 10, 2022 00:41
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  The Dallas Mavericks (Drunk Canuck) have signed Yuta Watanabe for $1. (The next highest bid was $0.)
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Aug 10, 2022 00:42
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  The Minnesota Timberwolves (Lockback) have signed Furkan Korkmaz for $1. (This bid was won in a coin toss tiebreaker.)
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Aug 10, 2022 00:45
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 The Minnesota Timberwolves (Lockback) have signed Tomas Satoransky for $1. (The next highest bid was $0.)
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Aug 10, 2022 00:46
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Deadbeat Dad posted:
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Aug 10, 2022 00:46
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Good buck grabs!
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Aug 10, 2022 00:48
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  The Washington Wizards (a new study bible!) have signed Jeremy Lamb for $1. (This was won in a coin toss tiebreaker.) If Wizards want to add Jeremy Lamb they must drop somebody within 24 hours via PM because of full roster!
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Aug 10, 2022 00:48
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 The Milwaukee Bucks (The Ninth Layer) have signed Shaedon Sharpe for $6. (The next highest bid was $0.)
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Aug 10, 2022 00:51
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  The San Antonio Spurs (Giggs) have signed Corey Kispert for $1. (The next highest bid was $0.)
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Aug 10, 2022 00:53
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 The Minnesota Timberwolves (Lockback) have signed Mo Harkless for $1. (The next highest bid was $0.)
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Aug 10, 2022 00:54
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  The Los Angeles Clippers (Red Rox) have signed Bones Hyland for $15. (The next highest bid was $3.)
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Aug 10, 2022 00:57
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    TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT The Portland Trail Blazers (rivetz) have traded Reggie Jackson ($30) to the Los Angeles Clippers (Red Rox).  The Portland Trail Blazers (rivetz) open up $30 in cap space.
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Aug 10, 2022 01:00
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  The Portland Trailblazers (rivetz) have signed Jonathan Kuminga for $12. (The next highest bid was $6.)
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Aug 10, 2022 01:02
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