1Hyper Crab Tank posted:Hmm. Iggy, what did you do last night? CirclMastr says you went nowhere, but let's hear it. Have said before, will say again: can go absolutely nowhere at night. Circl track is correct, my only option is stay home, all the time. Enjoy mojito over hammering scum and put potion on bookshelf next to hammer trophy.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:17
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 00:37 |
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Okay, PsychoSoldier, could you present your results next? If you think there's a problem with you going first, let me know. But otherwise, I think it makes things most clear for town. Because on the small chance that you are scum, I'd like to be able to contradict you if anything is off; and then town can lunch me and know I'm telling the truth, then you. But that's only if you're actually scum. If you're town, as I think you are, we shouldn't have any problems.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:23
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I'd prefer psycho go first. I trust them more.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:25
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Second. I trust psycho, so I'd prefer hct go first.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:25
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Do you know who NeverHelm intended to jail? Don't tell me yet, just checking that you think you know. I do. Obviously, I have no mod info on whether it was successful, but I know whom he submitted on. Hyper Crab Tank posted:Okay, PsychoSoldier, could you present your results next? If you think there's a problem with you going first, let me know. But otherwise, I think it makes things most clear for town. Because on the small chance that you are scum, I'd like to be able to contradict you if anything is off; and then town can lunch me and know I'm telling the truth, then you. But that's only if you're actually scum. If you're town, as I think you are, we shouldn't have any problems. I'm curious here. At the start of the phase, you were sure it was Grandi, with Meen being the only real alternative with full trust on me and Circl. Yet this post implies that you think the lynch should be between you and me? Is that right?
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Sep 18, 2022 21:34
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No, not at all. I think the real lunch is between Grandicap and Iggy. I just can't give up the sliver of a chance that it's really you. But I realize the order we go doesn't really matter for that, so: I targeted Iggy last night. His action was not modified. Yami has also confirmed to me that juggernaut would count as a modification, therefore the universe where Grandicap jailed NeverHelm and Iggy juggernauted his way to a kill is not real. CirclMastr already kind of took that off the table, but this also confirms Iggy is not a ninja, either.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:37
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Also, the main problem I have with me claiming first is exactly what you said: if you're scum, I think it gives you a safer place to hide your real action if necessary. My claim could have very heavy consequences on what you claim and make things less clear. So I guess we're kind of at a standstill in that sense unless we let the crowd vote who outs first.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:41
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Actually, that might help explain things a little, because if Iggy did not juggernaut and Grandicap is telling the truth, then it's either CirclMastr or PsychoSoldier that did it. But I trust those two more than anything. Therefore my current viewpoint is that Grandicap is lying. It doesn't help that his alleged self-jail yesterday is completely unverifiable, as is the Cpig jail the night before. But let me see your results, PsychoSoldier.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:42
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(It hardly needs to be said, but the reason I trust CirclMastr is because NeverHelm rolecopped him and he has not lied about anything there.)
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Sep 18, 2022 21:43
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PsychoSoldier posted:Also, the main problem I have with me claiming first is exactly what you said: if you're scum, I think it gives you a safer place to hide your real action if necessary. My claim could have very heavy consequences on what you claim and make things less clear. So I guess we're kind of at a standstill in that sense unless we let the crowd vote who outs first. Just so you don't miss it, that is my claim up there. My full accounts for all nights if you want them as a reminder are: N1: Checked PsychoSoldier. My action failed. (Grandi claims to have jailed you.) N2: Checked Grandicap. My action failed. (Grandi claims to have jailed me.) N3 : Checked NeverHelm. His action was modified. The likely cause is the pet acting up, which NeverHelm confirmed at the time. N4: Checked Cpig. My action failed. I had totally forgotten about this, I guess we can confirm that jail, then. N5: Checked CirclMastr. Not modified. N6: Checked PsychoSoldier again. Not modified. N7: Checked Iggy. Not modified.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:46
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:No, not at all. I think the real lunch is between Grandicap and Iggy. I just can't give up the sliver of a chance that it's really you. But I realize the order we go doesn't really matter for that, so: Ok, you outed anyway, thank you NeverHelm attempted to jail Meen last night. If Grandi is telling the truth, I don't think Meen could be untrackable, so Meen didn't do the kill. I don't see much reason why Circl would make a claim that essentially clears Meen, so even if he's scum, I don't think he's lying. So, Meen is flat cleared for me. In almost all scenarios, he shouldn't have been able to carry the kill because he either would have been tracked or jailed, and if Circl or Grandi is lying, then they are the scum. Which means that Grandi had to jail Never last night(because if I'm not mistaken, you said jailing/roleblocking counts as modifying the action?). Because if he didn't, then Meen would have been jailed and you would have got a result for that. So he'd be telling the truth. Which means either Grandi was able to jail and kill at the same time, which would have to be a strongman kill, or you strongmanned Never. I guess there's a fringe case where Circl strongmanned NeverHelm, but again, off memory, that relies on Circl actively working against scum's wincon pretty much the whole game.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:50
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Just so you don't miss it, that is my claim up there. My full accounts for all nights if you want them as a reminder are: Can you full claim your role again?
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Sep 18, 2022 21:51
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:(It hardly needs to be said, but the reason I trust CirclMastr is because NeverHelm rolecopped him and he has not lied about anything there.) To be clear, our version of the rolecop did not show alignment. We got the full role description, but no alignment or wincon info. So all we know is that so far Circl has not lied about the details of his role actions.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:51
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PsychoSoldier posted:NeverHelm attempted to jail Meen last night. Wait. What? Unless the item you got doesn't work like Grandicap says, or he is lying about his action, that shouldn't be the case. When Grandicap jailed people in the past, all actions targeting that player failed. Mine did N1, according to what we have above. So why did neither CirclMastr nor my action fail against Iggy last night?
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Sep 18, 2022 21:52
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Grandicap posted:Can you full claim your role again? Hyper Crab Tank posted:Okay, this is looking pretty good. Also, since Cloacamazing flipped scum, there's really no point to me keeping my role secret anymore since she no doubt shared everything about it with the rest of the team. I'm Sir Orion, Inquisitor. At night I target a player and learn whether their action that night was modified, meaning blocked, redirected, empowered, otherwise tampered with etc. I assume it would've seen that befuddle thing, too.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:52
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Wait. What? Unless the item you got doesn't work like Grandicap says, or he is lying about his action, that shouldn't be the case. When Grandicap jailed people in the past, all actions targeting that player failed. Mine did N1, according to what we have above. So why did neither CirclMastr nor my action fail against Iggy last night? I jailed Never last night, that would have blocked their jailing of Meen. So Meen wasn't jailed because Never was.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:53
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Wait. What? Unless the item you got doesn't work like Grandicap says, or he is lying about his action, that shouldn't be the case. When Grandicap jailed people in the past, all actions targeting that player failed. Mine did N1, according to what we have above. So why did neither CirclMastr nor my action fail against Iggy last night? Grandi jailed Never. So Never wouldn't have been able to touch Meen.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:55
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Would action resolution really work that way, if jails are the same priority? I'm okay with getting lunched if it will help you exclude me. But then we should have an ironclad solve for how to nail the last scum tomorrow.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:55
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So yeah, regardless of whether he was capable of killing at the same time, Grandi's jail actually happened last night.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:55
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I suppose it's not out of the question that he does have the ability to jail and kill. All the other scum had an extra bonus ability that activated if they were the last one alive.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:57
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PsychoSoldier posted:Which means that Grandi had to jail Never last night(because if I'm not mistaken, you said jailing/roleblocking counts as modifying the action?). To clarify, roleblocking is a modification, but jailing just results in me bouncing off the target. At least the kind of jail Grandicap has claimed. But other than that, modification refers to anything that alters how the action functions, like blocking or redirection, or enhancements like juggernaut or ninja.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:58
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Would action resolution really work that way, if jails are the same priority? Yes. All blocks/jails would take place first. So Never jails Meen. But gets jailed by Grandi because there's nothing stopping him from doing so. That cancels out Never's action. If someone else could have blocked or jailed Grandi, then Never's action probably goes through, or maybe no one acts depending on the mod. If there was a strongman and they go by the resolution of strongman going before blocks/docs/jails, then Never would technically die before he could even use his action, then Meen still wouldn't be jailed. The gameplay for me at this point is to eliminate you and then eliminate Grandi. If in some world it's Circl, then congrats on your win because you completely sold your mafia soul to make it happen.
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Sep 18, 2022 21:59
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EBWOP Gameplan
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Sep 18, 2022 21:59
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Oh, another thing about my role if it helps at all: when I get a result of "not modified", that doesn't mean the target even tried to do anything. It just means there were no effects that would modify an action applied to that player.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:00
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:To clarify, roleblocking is a modification, but jailing just results in me bouncing off the target. At least the kind of jail Grandicap has claimed. But other than that, modification refers to anything that alters how the action functions, like blocking or redirection, or enhancements like juggernaut or ninja. Ah, yeah, that makes sense. Which again, though, proves Grandi jailed Never because if he didn't, then you wouldn't have gotten any results on Meen.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:01
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The important thing I wanted to establish is whether Grandi actually jailed or not. As soon as I saw his and Circl's claims, I knew Meen virtually couldn't do anything that night. I could have seen scum!Grandi being like, "Aw shucks, I tried to protect Never again and it didn't work!" Because at worst, if he's tracked to the kill, at least he has some kind of explanation. Which to be fair, could still be the case if he was able to jail and strongman at the same time. Now I probably skim your ISOs to double check stances and stuff, but yeah. It's basically always HCT or Grandi here.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:03
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Yami Fenrir posted:
Yami Fenrir posted:
Yami Fenrir posted:
All 3 flipped scums had a power that triggered if they were the only one left. A godfather (well, perfect godfather) , a ninja, and a remote killer. So the final scum probably has a modifier to their kill as well. At least cloaca and Pig had a power that could be copied by psycho, and a secondary power or modified version that they had. A scum version and a town version. So people aren't cleared by a psycho copy. And also, the 3 flipped scum all had day actions that were claimable. 1 had a night action that was not copy-able, 1 had a modifier to their night kill, and 1 had no night based shenanigans.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:05
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Rhymes with Clue, Queen Pleiades (Scum-Aligned Doublevoter/Godfather) was lunched Day 2.
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Oh my god, it just dawned on me trying to look back at rolecards Hal's homunculus was probably bullshit, tol
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Sep 18, 2022 22:06
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Grandicap posted:Some things I see when looking at the scum flips: Thanks for this, because I was literally in the process of doing this
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Sep 18, 2022 22:07
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PsychoSoldier posted:The important thing I wanted to establish is whether Grandi actually jailed or not. As soon as I saw his and Circl's claims, I knew Meen virtually couldn't do anything that night. I could have seen scum!Grandi being like, "Aw shucks, I tried to protect Never again and it didn't work!" Because at worst, if he's tracked to the kill, at least he has some kind of explanation. This would be a risky claim. Any fake jail would be a risky claim because anyone could have targeted my target and bounced off of it. I have claimed early in the day cycle consistently, if I were scum and lying that would be a huge risk for me. The jail and kill at the same time is interesting. Especially in this game where final scums get bonuses to their kill, but it isn't me. Could it be Meen with pets doing the kill for him? That seems to fit the pattern, but did Never have a pet?
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Sep 18, 2022 22:08
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PsychoSoldier posted:Oh my god, it just dawned on me trying to look back at rolecards What do you mean?
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Sep 18, 2022 22:08
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Wait. Let me go through something. The possible worlds from my viewpoint are (assuming 4 scum): A) CirclMastr is scum. In that case, Grandi is telling the truth and CirclMastr must have a strongman. But you would have seen that in his role PM, so that can't be it, right? B) Iggy is scum. In that case, he must be a ninja because CirclMastr didn't see him go anywhere, but I checked Iggy and his action was not modified, so this can't be it either. C) Grandicap is scum. Meen was not jailed, so Grandicap must have jailed + killed NeverHelm. D) PsychoSoldier is scum. In that case, you must have a strongman ability, because then Grandi is telling the truth about jailing NeverHelm. The problem from my end is I can't differentiate C from D mechanically, I can only trust the masonry. I do believe the masonry trusted PsychoSoldier. But I also know you're very good at playing scum. Thoughts on this, from anyone? Again, if my lunch will guarantee the win, I'm happy to go. But I don't want to leave lingering doubt that it could be situation D.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:09
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Grandicap posted:Could it be Meen with pets doing the kill for him? That seems to fit the pattern, but did Never have a pet? At one point yes, but he gave it to Cpig.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:09
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PsychoSoldier posted:I don't think Grandicap flips to push ASF when he had no reason. I don't think Grandicap stops the kill on Wind. I don't think Grandicap throws himself on a potential Homonculus bomb. So that rules out #1 for me. That rules out that bit of evidence, which takes away a good deal of cred from Grandi. But I still want to have a look
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Sep 18, 2022 22:11
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PsychoSoldier posted:Hal's homunculus was probably bullshit, tol What do you mean by this? Sandwolf aptly demonstrated that the homunculus existed, because he got smacked on the wrist for faking day actions and Hal never did.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:12
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Grandicap posted:This would be a risky claim. Any fake jail would be a risky claim because anyone could have targeted my target and bounced off of it. I have claimed early in the day cycle consistently, if I were scum and lying that would be a huge risk for me. I don't think it could be Meen just because Never didn't have a pet when he died. The only pet that should have been left in rotation is the one I gave back to CPig, which would have died with him I'm assuming. Grandicap posted:What do you mean? Hal seemed to actually believe the homonculus was real, but look at Yami's ISO. Every single action that Hal tried to take, Yami said nothing happened. Which is close to my "nothing of note Happened" the one night I got results from Focus and didn't do anything else at the same night. I could see where we all thought Hal was lying as scum to scare people from hammering, but knowing Hal was town, I think he genuinely wanted us to line up a suspect as the hammer because he actually thought the homonculus would do something. But it didn't. It never did anything despite any of his actions. So he got a fake homonculus from Cloacamazing's role. At least, that's how I'm reading it now that I'm putting everything together.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:16
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Wait, there's something else bothering me. We had a no-kill night at one point, N3. Grandi claimed credit for that, saying he jailed Windward, and nobody else counterclaimed. There was a second no-kill night later, and that time CirclMastr counterclaimed. None of the flips or claims can account for this save other than Grandicap's, right?
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Sep 18, 2022 22:16
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:What do you mean by this? Sandwolf aptly demonstrated that the homunculus existed, because he got smacked on the wrist for faking day actions and Hal never did. Hal thought he was doing genuine actions. Sand was bullshitting.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:16
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Wait, there's something else bothering me. We had a no-kill night at one point, N3. Grandi claimed credit for that, saying he jailed Windward, and nobody else counterclaimed. There was a second no-kill night later, and that time CirclMastr counterclaimed. None of the flips or claims can account for this save other than Grandicap's, right?
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Sep 18, 2022 22:17
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 00:37 |
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Wait, there's something else bothering me. We had a no-kill night at one point, N3. Grandi claimed credit for that, saying he jailed Windward, and nobody else counterclaimed. There was a second no-kill night later, and that time CirclMastr counterclaimed. None of the flips or claims can account for this save other than Grandicap's, right? Didn't CPig go out of his way to support this?
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Sep 18, 2022 22:17
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