Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!

Pseudohog posted:

Seeing you saving in the same slot all the time makes me nervous that you'll accidentally save right before something is about to kill you :(
When I played this way back when, I went way overboard on keeping different saves just in case!

Entirely possible...I should probably use the second mid video save slot I have reserved a bit more often just in case, but I'll probably forget to.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
Rojo vs the Orb.

Some of the enemies in this get really abstract.

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010



PurpleXVI posted:

Hell yeah, System Shock rocking out with the absolutely worst soundtrack imaginable. I love it.

drat, you really weren't kidding, huh? Some of it has this weird funky feeling to it that you can kinda zone out to, others are just very, uh, bad.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Not sure if you want help on it, but a hint to how to clear out the cameras is in the manual, section 15.0.

A clarification/bigger hint based on the last episode watch it starting from about 15:30.

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!

Kangra posted:

Not sure if you want help on it, but a hint to how to clear out the cameras is in the manual, section 15.0.

A clarification/bigger hint based on the last episode watch it starting from about 15:30.

I don't mind some details about game mechanics as long as it's something related to a video that's out, especially if it's in the manual. According to the section you mentioned, you can use the big map to see what security features are in your scanning radius, which I guess makes it a bit easier to see than trying to zoom out the minimap. Someone also dropped a comment on the video - it seems the red dots on the map indicate cameras, but I assume the big computer nodes like the ones we blew up are represented similarly. I'd noticed the dots previously, but didn't make the connection as to what they were. If I remember we'll go back to level 1 and clean things up to see if we can open that one last hidden door, though probably not until we've spent some more time on level 2.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

Well, if we're talking about stuff you might have missed, did you see what the switch on the wall next to the dead body above the radiation pits does? 6:40 in your last video, I think.
There was also a small greenish item in the nearby storeroom next to the first aid kit that you mistook for a mine (I would have too, things with blinking lights on the floor are usually never good!), but maybe it was just another can of soda?

The sparq beam seems like a really good earlygame weapon, so long as you know where the recharge stations are.

It's also interesting how the game engine seems to be quite advanced for its time with the angled walls and ceilings, although everything does seem to be made up of standard-sized blocks. I wonder how similar the tech is to Doom?

Pseudohog
Apr 4, 2007
Ah, the science level. I remember this one and Medical pretty well, as well as some of the reactor level - but everything else is pretty blurry :( It was cool to play the System Shock Remake demo (whole medical level), then watch you play through the original version, they did a pretty good job of recreating the feel of it.

I love the elevator muzak, always made me feel nice and safe when I heard that! Although I don't remember that mutant gank squad at the start of the science level!

Speaking of the music, a number of people have made remixes of the level music over the years. Some of the original web sites have vanished but some of the remixes can still be found in a couple of places if anyone wanted to give them a listen
https://www.ttlg.com/ss1/music/
https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=11631
https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=8637

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!

Crazy Achmed posted:

Well, if we're talking about stuff you might have missed, did you see what the switch on the wall next to the dead body above the radiation pits does? 6:40 in your last video, I think.
There was also a small greenish item in the nearby storeroom next to the first aid kit that you mistook for a mine (I would have too, things with blinking lights on the floor are usually never good!), but maybe it was just another can of soda?

The sparq beam seems like a really good earlygame weapon, so long as you know where the recharge stations are.

It's also interesting how the game engine seems to be quite advanced for its time with the angled walls and ceilings, although everything does seem to be made up of standard-sized blocks. I wonder how similar the tech is to Doom?

We'll check out most of the stuff I missed in the upcoming episode.

As for the specific tech that makes the game possible, I'm not sure how similar it is under the hood to Doom. System Shock's engine seems far more capable, but not necessarily more efficient. You may already know all this, but Doom being the juggernaut that it is has most of the cultural mindshare for being technologically advanced for its time. However, I'm guessing that System Shock uses some code from Ultima Underworld, which was also a 3D game, but predated Doom by nearly 2 years and even Wolfenstein 3D by a month or two. The days of early 3D were pretty wild.


Pseudohog posted:

Ah, the science level. I remember this one and Medical pretty well, as well as some of the reactor level - but everything else is pretty blurry :( It was cool to play the System Shock Remake demo (whole medical level), then watch you play through the original version, they did a pretty good job of recreating the feel of it.

I love the elevator muzak, always made me feel nice and safe when I heard that! Although I don't remember that mutant gank squad at the start of the science level!

Speaking of the music, a number of people have made remixes of the level music over the years. Some of the original web sites have vanished but some of the remixes can still be found in a couple of places if anyone wanted to give them a listen
https://www.ttlg.com/ss1/music/
https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=11631
https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=8637

Cool to see that this stuff exists and that any of it is still accessible outside of archive.org after who knows how long.

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!


Episode 5 - Perfection Through Genetics

Kangra
May 7, 2012

rojovision posted:

We'll check out most of the stuff I missed in the upcoming episode.

As for the specific tech that makes the game possible, I'm not sure how similar it is under the hood to Doom. System Shock's engine seems far more capable, but not necessarily more efficient. You may already know all this, but Doom being the juggernaut that it is has most of the cultural mindshare for being technologically advanced for its time. However, I'm guessing that System Shock uses some code from Ultima Underworld, which was also a 3D game, but predated Doom by nearly 2 years and even Wolfenstein 3D by a month or two. The days of early 3D were pretty wild.

They actually did a ground-up rewrite of the engine, but one imagines it would have been heavily influenced by Ultima Underworld at least in design choices. The other major thing they did was implement physics based on a flight sim they'd written. This is something that only has a minor effect on gameplay outside of cyberspace, but adds to the verisimilitude, since the character movement actually has a slight amount of momentum to it.

I didn't play it until well after it first came out (I got the Mac port second-hand) so I can't directly compare it to what was around at the time, but it seems like the first game to really integrate so many parts, and did so in an immersive way. It's possibly a downside that this complexity makes navigating the UI while also trying to move in the game world a bit clunky at times; as a result not everything feels as fluid as its more-focused contemporaries such as Doom.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
This level design is so spaghettified, just a big ol' pile of noodly corridors.

Pseudohog
Apr 4, 2007

PurpleXVI posted:

This level design is so spaghettified, just a big ol' pile of noodly corridors.

And I love that secret entrance to D'Arcy's office which requires you to lie on your stomach and wriggle out through a bookshelf? cupboard? whatever that thing was!

Pseudohog
Apr 4, 2007

Kangra posted:

They actually did a ground-up rewrite of the engine, but one imagines it would have been heavily influenced by Ultima Underworld at least in design choices. The other major thing they did was implement physics based on a flight sim they'd written. This is something that only has a minor effect on gameplay outside of cyberspace, but adds to the verisimilitude, since the character movement actually has a slight amount of momentum to it.

I didn't play it until well after it first came out (I got the Mac port second-hand) so I can't directly compare it to what was around at the time, but it seems like the first game to really integrate so many parts, and did so in an immersive way. It's possibly a downside that this complexity makes navigating the UI while also trying to move in the game world a bit clunky at times; as a result not everything feels as fluid as its more-focused contemporaries such as Doom.

Ultima Underworld was crazy at the time - going from something like Wolfenstein 3D which was all flat corridors and right angles, to massive levels with multiple levels, slopes, areas above areas (which even Doom couldn't do), spells which let you fly.... it was just amazing technology. Myself and my brother sunk a huge number of hours into Underworld 1 and 2.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

Yeah, I enjoyed your LP of UU, Rojo - you should do UU2 at some point in the future if you haven't already :)

Pseudohog
Apr 4, 2007

Crazy Achmed posted:

Yeah, I enjoyed your LP of UU, Rojo - you should do UU2 at some point in the future if you haven't already :)

Oh, I hadn't realised it was Rojo who'd done that UU LP a few years back! Yeah that was a good LP as well, I'd definitely watch one for UU2 if Rojo isn't too burned out after System Shock!

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!


Episode 6 - Cause for Celebration

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!

Kangra posted:

They actually did a ground-up rewrite of the engine, but one imagines it would have been heavily influenced by Ultima Underworld at least in design choices. The other major thing they did was implement physics based on a flight sim they'd written. This is something that only has a minor effect on gameplay outside of cyberspace, but adds to the verisimilitude, since the character movement actually has a slight amount of momentum to it.

I didn't play it until well after it first came out (I got the Mac port second-hand) so I can't directly compare it to what was around at the time, but it seems like the first game to really integrate so many parts, and did so in an immersive way. It's possibly a downside that this complexity makes navigating the UI while also trying to move in the game world a bit clunky at times; as a result not everything feels as fluid as its more-focused contemporaries such as Doom.

Good to know, thanks. The game is definitely clunky compared to something like Doom - likely because they're trying to do so much all at once, as you said.


Crazy Achmed posted:

Yeah, I enjoyed your LP of UU, Rojo - you should do UU2 at some point in the future if you haven't already :)

Pseudohog posted:

Oh, I hadn't realised it was Rojo who'd done that UU LP a few years back! Yeah that was a good LP as well, I'd definitely watch one for UU2 if Rojo isn't too burned out after System Shock!

UU2 is definitely on the list of games to play, but I'd like to at least play Ultima 7 first since I know UU2 is a bit related to some of the events / characters from 7.

Veloxyll
May 3, 2011

Fuck you say?!

Ahh, the pain of seeing you mouse over a control pedestal and going "I guess we don't have a way to open this force door yet" And then you even went back to check on it. Oof! It looked like it had a lever on it, which was, in your defence, painted red like the walls (and force shield)

I assume the cyborgs didn't press the button because it's behind all the energy mines. Which, while just annoying to your R grade cyber enhancements, are a bit worse when your bodily functions are replaced with cybernetics.

Veloxyll fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Sep 24, 2022

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

Well, to be fair the noninteractive doodads and textures are super busy in a way that camouflages buttons and stuff that don't seem to be intentionally hidden.

I was getting twitchy over how many times the cyberspace interface popped up on screen without getting noticed

Pseudohog
Apr 4, 2007
I think the wiring puzzle you solved in the library which didn't seem to do anything, may have changed something on one of the screens to the right of the puzzle? The one with the black screen and red text looks like it was behaving differently after you solved it.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Ha. The same trick as in Commander Keen 2. :haw:


Crazy Achmed posted:

Well, to be fair the noninteractive doodads and textures are super busy in a way that camouflages buttons and stuff that don't seem to be intentionally hidden.
I don't know how you're supposed to tell what anything is in this game. It's all very abstract.

Tagaziel
Aug 28, 2022

Ce n'est pas un chat.

Tiggum posted:


I don't know how you're supposed to tell what anything is in this game. It's all very abstract.

You click on it and the game tells you what it is. Same way I touch my wife and she tells me to knock it off.

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!
Just a heads up that the next update is going to be late - if I can I'll get something out for Wednesday otherwise I'll just do the regularly scheduled Friday video. I'll try to remember to go back and look at the things I missed that people have mentioned.

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!


Episode 7 - R for Recuperation

Pseudohog
Apr 4, 2007
Nice, the reactor level - this is where my memory starts to get fuzzy, except for one very special room! I do remember the hoppers lurking around every corner though...
One advantage of you using the pipe a lot earlier on I guess is that you have a load of normal and teflon pistol ammo, so along with the umpteen battery packs you've got you should be ok for ammo for this level!

You mentioned the target analyser briefly - so one thing the V1 target analyser is doing is telling you if you actually hit an enemy. Before you got that, it was hard to tell whether you were hitting a wall or the target itself, but now you get some handy targeting brackets.

One little thing to mention, you may have noticed this already while going back over the video - you missed something just as you stepped out of the elevator onto the R level.

On a general note, I'm impressed by how smoothly and troublefree the game is playing, apart from the occassional brief pause before it plays some audio which I assume is loading from the CD. You're playing this on an actual physical MS-DOS PC, right - how much hassle did you have setting it up in the first place with getting enough free memory and so on? I have bad memories of spending ages trying to create a boot disk which let me play things like TIE Fighter with a joystick plus a sound card :(

Kangra
May 7, 2012

It's really neat to see how you move around these levels for the first time. There is a general high-level layout of the floors, and some obvious chokepoints (e.g. the cpu node room & elevator on L2), but there are often several options for connecting between segments or moving around in them. Watching this it's almost like seeing new doors being discovered, since once you know the levels there is a more likely route you take to complete them. I think part of this is that there genuinely are rooms that really are just storage of stuff you don't care about, and rooms that don't even make sense in-world except to possibly have enemies hiding around a corner (or not). While there are some monster closets in specific places, the game more often has the layout be occasionally dangerous all on its own when enemies could be anywhere.

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!


Episode 8 - Slow Motion Death Machine

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!

Pseudohog posted:

Nice, the reactor level - this is where my memory starts to get fuzzy, except for one very special room! I do remember the hoppers lurking around every corner though...
One advantage of you using the pipe a lot earlier on I guess is that you have a load of normal and teflon pistol ammo, so along with the umpteen battery packs you've got you should be ok for ammo for this level!

You mentioned the target analyser briefly - so one thing the V1 target analyser is doing is telling you if you actually hit an enemy. Before you got that, it was hard to tell whether you were hitting a wall or the target itself, but now you get some handy targeting brackets.

One little thing to mention, you may have noticed this already while going back over the video - you missed something just as you stepped out of the elevator onto the R level.

On a general note, I'm impressed by how smoothly and troublefree the game is playing, apart from the occassional brief pause before it plays some audio which I assume is loading from the CD. You're playing this on an actual physical MS-DOS PC, right - how much hassle did you have setting it up in the first place with getting enough free memory and so on? I have bad memories of spending ages trying to create a boot disk which let me play things like TIE Fighter with a joystick plus a sound card :(

I'll try to remember to find what I missed near the elevator next time. As for the pauses, yeah I think it's pretty much all due to loading SFX from the CD. The weird issue where my mouse teleports to the side of the screen or randomly reads a click is probably just my mouse or my KVM setup which I have going for convenience. The PC I'm using is very powerful as far as MS-DOS is concerned, so available memory isn't an issue, but setting up the system so the game can access what it wants can be tricky. The first time I ever tried to set up the game on a retro PC I got a lot of errors for various reasons, but this time I kind of knew what I was doing. Next time I record I'll take a look at my config files and post the relevant parts. This system is only set up for SS at the moment so I'm thankfully able to avoid the problem of various games wanting different configs.


Kangra posted:

It's really neat to see how you move around these levels for the first time. There is a general high-level layout of the floors, and some obvious chokepoints (e.g. the cpu node room & elevator on L2), but there are often several options for connecting between segments or moving around in them. Watching this it's almost like seeing new doors being discovered, since once you know the levels there is a more likely route you take to complete them. I think part of this is that there genuinely are rooms that really are just storage of stuff you don't care about, and rooms that don't even make sense in-world except to possibly have enemies hiding around a corner (or not). While there are some monster closets in specific places, the game more often has the layout be occasionally dangerous all on its own when enemies could be anywhere.

Yeah Citadel Station does seem to be a bit mazelike at times with a lot of impractical layouts. Regarding the rooms that are actually just empty, I kind of like it to an extent. It fits in with the simulation vibe the game is going for. Kind of like how a lot of the voice work sounds like it was done by people around the office who worked on the game (and I think maybe it was, though I can't find a source to corroborate that at the moment). The logs sound like actual real people just going about their day, which is a nice touch that I don't think you would get with high paid voice talent, i.e. Jim from accounting leaving himself an audio note versus Patrick Stewart doing a captain's log.

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!


Episode 9 - Visibility Issues

Veloxyll
May 3, 2011

Fuck you say?!

Do you actually lose anything when you die once you've reactivated the regenerators, besides the time running back?

Pseudohog
Apr 4, 2007
Ouch, those respawns on the reactor level were insane! I'm not sure if they were supposed to be respawning right behind your back like that, seems a bit extreme, especially as those hoppers don't drop anything.

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!


Episode 10 - Nice Jump

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!

Veloxyll posted:

Do you actually lose anything when you die once you've reactivated the regenerators, besides the time running back?

Not as far as I know. I'll try to remember to check next time we respawn at one. Otherwise they might actually be beneficial for the HP refill in some cases, though timewise it's probably usually faster to just reload.


Pseudohog posted:

Ouch, those respawns on the reactor level were insane! I'm not sure if they were supposed to be respawning right behind your back like that, seems a bit extreme, especially as those hoppers don't drop anything.

Yeah they were a bit much. I'm guessing I was hitting some kind of respawn trigger that was a bit overtuned, but it's hard to say for certain. It's also possible that you're not intended to dillydally on the R level by design, and the aggressive respawns are the game's way of telling you to GTFO.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

rojovision posted:

Not as far as I know. I'll try to remember to check next time we respawn at one. Otherwise they might actually be beneficial for the HP refill in some cases, though timewise it's probably usually faster to just reload.
Yeah, seeing you get ganked by an ambush and then instantly respawn with far more health than you had before just doesn't really seem sporting. Gotta give ol' SHODAN a fighting chance.

Do grenades travel much further if you throw them on a high arc? They seem really powerful but also difficult to use safely.

Seyser Koze
Dec 15, 2013

Mucho Mucho
Nap Ghost

Crazy Achmed posted:

Oh, sorry, I meant difficulty 2. So if the time limit is removed for 2, then how does it (presumably) get easier on 1 and 0?

This was a while ago, but going into a little more detail on what Rojo said:
Mission 1 strips logs down to the most gameplay-relevant stuff, so logs are just “there’s ammo here,” “we can flip a switch to make cyborg conversion heal us,” “blowing up computers lowers security” etc.

In addition to doing away with logs entirely, Mission 0 also basically removes any kind of gating from the game. All doors open without keys, there’s no need to lower level security, and no need to do any of the plot missions as you go. So on Mission 0 Combat 0 you can basically run to the end of the game in a minute or so.

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!


Episode 11 - New Duds

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!

Crazy Achmed posted:

Yeah, seeing you get ganked by an ambush and then instantly respawn with far more health than you had before just doesn't really seem sporting. Gotta give ol' SHODAN a fighting chance.

Do grenades travel much further if you throw them on a high arc? They seem really powerful but also difficult to use safely.

I imagine they might...it's a bit tough with the frags because they explode on contact, but we'll give it a shot next time I record if we find a good spot. A land mine might be a good one to test with, assuming they all use the same physics.

Seyser Koze
Dec 15, 2013

Mucho Mucho
Nap Ghost
On the subject of the aggressive respawns, some enemy types on each level are set up to repopulate when the population falls below a particular threshold. On level 1 it's the humanoid mutants, level 2 it's cyborg drones, R it's the hoppers. They tend to respawn in specific spots and don't necessarily patrol afterward, hence why you keep getting little clusters of mutants around the surgery machine on 1, for example. The game's not usually quite so vicious about respawning them right behind you, though.

Also re: lasting penalties for dying, it's been a while, but IIRC on Cyber 3 each death in meatspace applies a penalty to your cyberspace time limit due to your brain not working as well after reconstruction.

rojovision
May 13, 2015

Don't tell anybody!


Episode 12 - Contact

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I have to say it was mildly amusing that you skipped out of Level 3 to go look for a flashlight on Level 4, when it was just another room away. Fortunately 3 and 4 are 'breather' levels that are not too tough to get through, and they really let you build up your abilities by finding new gadgets. It's plain that the Storage Level is where they threw all the battle rooms they couldn't figure out where to put elsewhere, as it's by far the least plausible design.

It's also great that you came back to Level 3, since the laser rapier is such an amazing weapon. Apparently it's actually a monofilament sword with an energy field, but yes it is a light saber. A lead pipe-only run is a definite challenge which makes the game fully survival horror. Melee-only – between the rapier, jump jets, and good shielding — poses an occasional puzzle but is entirely doable.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply