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Boco_T
Mar 12, 2003

la calaca tilica y flaca
I think that's a good read.

When he lost Alicia, he lost the driving force in his life, and became a passenger. He had he means to go down all these exciting roads and none of them succeeded in making him alive like he was when she was alive.

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HashtagGirlboss
Jan 4, 2005

Boco_T posted:

I think that's a good read.

When he lost Alicia, he lost the driving force in his life, and became a passenger. He had he means to go down all these exciting roads and none of them succeeded in making him alive like he was when she was alive.

Yeah it’s really a central component of his character, so many little details

competent enough to track down the island where the escape raft came aground, but no effort beyond that to unravel the mystery. Or when he hides out in Idaho until he’s starving and only then wanders into town for food. Or when he finds the truck in the ditch and stops the engine and leaves the abandoned passenger to his gate, expecting to find the driver further up the road but nope. Or of course the big one of being unwilling to read his sister’s last letter.

It also strikes me of all the Cormack McArthur I’ve read, which isn’t everything he’s written but most of the big ones, he’s the only protagonist who is never in any overt physical danger, which Kline reminds him a few times. Just kind of blowing in the wind, and that kind of goes with the fatalism that comes up a few times of individual lives and experiences dropping out of existence as time moves on

He’s just stuck on his sister dying (and his father dying too, although less present) the way his uncle is stuck on the drowned farm and just yells at the television

Proust Malone
Apr 4, 2008

Do y’all think that he is the missing passenger from the plane wreck?

Boco_T
Mar 12, 2003

la calaca tilica y flaca

Proust Malone posted:

Do y’all think that he is the missing passenger from the plane wreck?
I'm still waiting for people smarter than me to write articles about that part of the book so I can understand it better. Maybe?

HashtagGirlboss
Jan 4, 2005

Proust Malone posted:

Do y’all think that he is the missing passenger from the plane wreck?


Boco_T posted:

I'm still waiting for people smarter than me to write articles about that part of the book so I can understand it better. Maybe?

Yeah I’m sure people who are much smarter than me will hash this out, but personally that feels cheap to me. I feel like it works better if the protagonist is just there, surrounded by events and circumstances he can’t really understand and that are bigger than him and beyond his influence. That’s just something that happened that he was present for a small part of that’s beyond his understanding or control but that he has to deal with the fallout of anyway. Kind of ties in with the bomb and the math/physics and the flooding of the valley and his sister’s suicide and oiler dying In Venezuela and even the Kennedy stuff. I feel like there’s an underlying current throughout of the inconsequential nature of the individual experience against the greater universe and the flow of time. You get that especially a few times in the Alicia chapters, when the kid plays the video comes to mind, and also iirc from the last conversation with Sheddan. All this stuff happens around people beyond their ability to influence and they just experience the world as they move through it and then they die and they’re gone. So yeah I’m not a particularly insightful critic or articulate either and I don’t know how effectively I communicating my point, but for him to be the literal missing passenger to me at least feels counter to what I felt like the book was trying to do/say

Boco_T
Mar 12, 2003

la calaca tilica y flaca
Stella Maris is out on Tuesday, here's the New York Times review by Dwight Garner. Warning that he uses the phrase "total banger" to describe a Cormac McCarthy novel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/28/books/cormac-mccarthy-stella-maris.html

EDIT: Here's an excerpt on the NPR site
https://www.npr.org/2022/10/22/1129879339/first-reads-exclusive-excerpt-from-cormac-mccarthys-forthcoming-stella-maris

Boco_T fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Dec 1, 2022

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
When The Passenger and Stella Maris were announced last year, I had already read Blood Meridien, NCFOM, and The Road. In anticipation of the new book(s) I ran through the rest of them, and it's surprising to what degree a few of them have stuck with me (Suttree and All the Pretty Horses in particular have been following me around all year), whereas I finished The Passenger 4 weeks ago or so, and I haven't been thinking about it. I am definitely keen to re-read it at some point in the future, I suspect that knowing what to expect going in will increase my appreciation for it.

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming
So I finished up Blood Meridian and I was blown away. This was my third time attempting it, over the course of 5 years. I knew it was going to be a grueling read, even still it felt like I had to force myself to read it. But boy, it was worth it. What a ride, what an amazing piece of literature. The Judge is such a fascinating character. Afterwards I devoured some episodes of the Reading McCarthy podcast, and two Yale lectures on Youtube about the book.

I didn't know where I should go next, and I tried to start Pretty Horses and No Country, but somehow I managed to get into Suttree. About a quarter of the way through it and I love the language and Harrogate is such a hilarious, fun character.

Definitely gonna be checking out more episodes of the Reading McCarthy pod. I also expect that I will post an annoying number of times in this thread as I make my way through McCarthy's oeuvre.

Help a goon out! Lots of books - horror, nonfiction, classics and more for sale.

Boco_T
Mar 12, 2003

la calaca tilica y flaca
Please do. Thanks for the recommendation for the podcast, definitely going to check out their Passenger episode at least.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003

escape artist posted:

So I finished up Blood Meridian and I was blown away. This was my third time attempting it, over the course of 5 years. I knew it was going to be a grueling read, even still it felt like I had to force myself to read it. But boy, it was worth it. What a ride, what an amazing piece of literature. The Judge is such a fascinating character. Afterwards I devoured some episodes of the Reading McCarthy podcast, and two Yale lectures on Youtube about the book.

I didn't know where I should go next, and I tried to start Pretty Horses and No Country, but somehow I managed to get into Suttree. About a quarter of the way through it and I love the language and Harrogate is such a hilarious, fun character.

Definitely gonna be checking out more episodes of the Reading McCarthy pod. I also expect that I will post an annoying number of times in this thread as I make my way through McCarthy's oeuvre.

Suttree and Blood Meridien are considered to be his two best works by a large percentage of his readers. After that, I'd say:

1. The Border Trilogy
2. The Road
3. Outer Dark
4. Child of God
5. No Country For Old Men
6. The Orchard Keeper

Some of this hinges on whether you prefer his sort of "high baroque" style, typified by Blood Meridien and Suttree, or whether you prefer his more spare, straightforward style, typified by The Road. The Border Trilogy is sort of the hinge point between these two stylistic eras and can be considered a sort of "average" of the two eras, so it's a pretty safe recommendation for readers on either side of this divide.

Proust Malone
Apr 4, 2008

Proust Malone posted:

Do y’all think that he is the missing passenger from the plane wreck?

So maybe now the passenger is a metaphor for the opening of the cave after the crucifixion. Stella Maris is Mary is Alicia. Bobby on life support is the pieta…

Larry Cum Free
Jun 3, 2022

move it or lose it dillweed
I just finished the book last night and haven't dove into Stella Maris yet. I'm looking forward to it as I did enjoy the Alicia talking to her hallucinations chapters, which I think puts me in the minority of the thread.

I struggled with the last chapter of The Passenger and I know I'm going to need to re-read both books at least once to get a handle on it. I've read enough Cormac not to expect a tidy resolution, but I thought we would get....something more?

HashtagGirlboss posted:

Yeah it’s really a central component of his character, so many little details

competent enough to track down the island where the escape raft came aground, but no effort beyond that to unravel the mystery. Or when he hides out in Idaho until he’s starving and only then wanders into town for food. Or when he finds the truck in the ditch and stops the engine and leaves the abandoned passenger to his gate, expecting to find the driver further up the road but nope. Or of course the big one of being unwilling to read his sister’s last letter.

It also strikes me of all the Cormack McArthur I’ve read, which isn’t everything he’s written but most of the big ones, he’s the only protagonist who is never in any overt physical danger, which Kline reminds him a few times. Just kind of blowing in the wind, and that kind of goes with the fatalism that comes up a few times of individual lives and experiences dropping out of existence as time moves on

He’s just stuck on his sister dying (and his father dying too, although less present) the way his uncle is stuck on the drowned farm and just yells at the television


The way I read Western, which is probably overly simplistic, is he's ready for death, but he won't kill himself and he won't succumb to death from some external force willingly. It's like he wants his death to be meaningful and redeeming in some way, but I think it's a big theme of Cormac's novels that there rarely is meaning in death.

I like all the details of his interesting cast of friends, the racecar driver career, the forays into physics, being able to fix and jerry-rig things. It paints a portrait of this supremely interesting character that existed outside the scope of the novel, who gave up on everything and became this blank canvas for everything around him after Alicia died.

TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

Time for a little robot chauvinism!

Finished The Passenger yesterday, still need to start Stella Maris.

I like the interpretation of Western as a passenger of life is pretty spot on. Very much it seems like he's a passenger to the changing currents of the postwar 20th century (and beyond), simply talking with others and listening and taking in these broad, radical cultural, scientific and political shifts. He mostly just wants to live alone and be left to his own private misery, but like all of us he is swept along. It's curious knowing that McCarthy had been working on this for decades, and it's set in 1980, but final revisions seem to really come through as so much of it feels incredibly modern as these hints of changes to come are peppered through the dialogue.

There's a trans woman, which who knows if this character has been in drafts for decades or was a recent addition but is nevertheless a timely figure of the current culture war. One of the most empathetic and passionate characters in the whole book. There's the physics section, which covers much of the developments made in that field up to a point but presages later developments like the Large Hadron Collider and other breakthroughs towards our understanding of the universe since 1980. There's of course the JFK conspiracies and political coverups and spooks running around pulling strings and involving otherwise unassuming people with the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hell, there's even a reference from Kline to electronic money and private currencies that almost feels like a wry nod to crypto.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
I liked the description of seeing a city at night from an airplane looking like a motherboard. Weirdly modern for McCarthy. Reminds me of how jolting it was when Terence Malick started making movies set in the present rather than being historical.

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming
To those who have read Passenger / Stella Maris:
There is a new episode of the reading McCarthy podcast up, first aired last week, on Stella Maris




Since I have the option, when do you guys think I should read Passenger / Stella Maris? Should I make my way through the rest of his oeuvre first? Or should I insert them somewhere in the middle so I don't see a dropoff in quality? I tried to start The Road last night but I think I am gonna do All The Pretty Horses instead because my mind is still in the frontier.

Here's a seemingly neat book about McCarthy that I want to get when I have a spare $30:
https://www.amazon.com/Books-Are-Made-Out-Influences/dp/1477313486

Boco_T
Mar 12, 2003

la calaca tilica y flaca
Thanks for linking that book, I have several McCarthy analysis books that I haven't gotten around to reading but I still want that one too.

I picked up Stella Maris on the 6th but I didn't crack it yet because I haven't quite been in the mood. Luckily it's short enough that if I start it any time before Christmas I should be able to easily finish it before the end of the year like I planned.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003

escape artist posted:


Since I have the option, when do you guys think I should read Passenger / Stella Maris? Should I make my way through the rest of his oeuvre first? Or should I insert them somewhere in the middle so I don't see a dropoff in quality? I tried to start The Road last night but I think I am gonna do All The Pretty Horses instead because my mind is still in the frontier.

My ranked list is a few posts up (sorry, maybe you already saw it). If you haven’t read Suttree yet I would because it’s one of his best (if not the best) and The Passenger echoes it quite noticeably.

Larry Cum Free
Jun 3, 2022

move it or lose it dillweed

escape artist posted:

To those who have read Passenger / Stella Maris:

Since I have the option, when do you guys think I should read Passenger / Stella Maris? Should I make my way through the rest of his oeuvre first? Or should I insert them somewhere in the middle so I don't see a dropoff in quality? I tried to start The Road last night but I think I am gonna do All The Pretty Horses instead because my mind is still in the frontier.


I've read everything he's written save for Outer Dark and Orchard Keeper, and I didn't think The Passenger represented a drop off in quality at all. You can't go wrong with either The Road or the Border Trilogy because they both own.

e: ^^Suttree is my favourite and I agree it would be good (but not remotely necessary) to read before Passenger. If you're going through the whole oeuvre though I would save Suttree for somewhere in the middle. It's a nice break in terms of subject matter as it's not so heavy/grim. Like read it between The Road and Blood Meridian so you don't spiral into depression lol

Larry Cum Free fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Dec 14, 2022

hobbez
Mar 1, 2012

Don't care. Just do not care. We win, you lose. You do though, you seem to care very much

I'm going to go ride my mountain bike, later nerds.
This is my first McCarthy. Maybe a bad first choice but oh well. Can’t say I’m too in love so far. The western sections are good enough, but the italicized sections feel like a bit of a slog. Not feeling like they’re adding much at this point. It’s like a bad Pynchon riff.

In chapter one, someone staying at the seven seas dies, presumably of suicide? Anyone able to parse what the method was? They say he “took the pipe”, and someone references they could smell the gasoline and that his doors were all taped up. Almost sounds like carbon monoxide, but not sure how that could be done in an apartment.

It was a brief scene, but feels like it should be substantial. Wondering if anyone took something else had a different read on it?

King Carnivore
Dec 17, 2007

Graveyard Disciple

hobbez posted:

In chapter one, someone staying at the seven seas dies, presumably of suicide? Anyone able to parse what the method was? They say he “took the pipe”, and someone references they could smell the gasoline and that his doors were all taped up. Almost sounds like carbon monoxide, but not sure how that could be done in an apartment.

He killed the pilot light opened up the burners on the stove and ate the gas. As you said, it mentions him sealing beneath the door. The death isn’t made out to be big deal because what’s another wino suicide in New Orleans?

I liked the book a lot, but it’s far from his best and I say that as Cormac-head who’s read almost the entire catalog up to this point, save The Stone Mason. Greatest living American author for sure, IMO. I do agree with you about the hallucinations half of the book being a slog. It’s a pretty common refrain ITT from what I’ve seen. I don’t know if I’m going to read Stella Maris, it sounds like it’s going to be a whole book of that.

I don’t think The Passenger is the best place to start. Any from the following: Blood Meridian, NCFOM, The Road and the Borders Trilogy, would be my pick. If I had to pick one, it’d be The Road. I’ve read it about a dozen times. For me it’s one of those books I can pick up anytime read it all the way through and then go right back and start in on page one again. If I were to pick one based upon which is the greatest literary achievement, it’d be Blood Meridian.

I would say definitely give him another chance, even if you weren’t crazy about The Passenger.

mdemone
Mar 14, 2001

hobbez posted:

This is my first McCarthy. Maybe a bad first choice but oh well. Can’t say I’m too in love so far. The western sections are good enough, but the italicized sections feel like a bit of a slog. Not feeling like they’re adding much at this point. It’s like a bad Pynchon riff.

In chapter one, someone staying at the seven seas dies, presumably of suicide? Anyone able to parse what the method was? They say he “took the pipe”, and someone references they could smell the gasoline and that his doors were all taped up. Almost sounds like carbon monoxide, but not sure how that could be done in an apartment.

It was a brief scene, but feels like it should be substantial. Wondering if anyone took something else had a different read on it?

I definitely agree that this feels the most like Pynchon of anything McCarthy has tried, but it never ever winks at the reader the way TRP loves to do.

I'm pretty sure your interpretation of that scene is correct. I reckon you could gas yourself in a small room with an old appliance that doesn't regulate flow.

hobbez
Mar 1, 2012

Don't care. Just do not care. We win, you lose. You do though, you seem to care very much

I'm going to go ride my mountain bike, later nerds.

King Carnivore posted:

He killed the pilot light opened up the burners on the stove and ate the gas. As you said, it mentions him sealing beneath the door. The death isn’t made out to be big deal because what’s another wino suicide in New Orleans?

I liked the book a lot, but it’s far from his best and I say that as Cormac-head who’s read almost the entire catalog up to this point, save The Stone Mason. Greatest living American author for sure, IMO. I do agree with you about the hallucinations half of the book being a slog. It’s a pretty common refrain ITT from what I’ve seen. I don’t know if I’m going to read Stella Maris, it sounds like it’s going to be a whole book of that.

I don’t think The Passenger is the best place to start. Any from the following: Blood Meridian, NCFOM, The Road and the Borders Trilogy, would be my pick. If I had to pick one, it’d be The Road. I’ve read it about a dozen times. For me it’s one of those books I can pick up anytime read it all the way through and then go right back and start in on page one again. If I were to pick one based upon which is the greatest literary achievement, it’d be Blood Meridian.

I would say definitely give him another chance, even if you weren’t crazy about The Passenger.

Gotcha, this makes sense. I guess it serves to show how physically and mentally haunted by his Alicia's death and suicide Western is. He is so immersed in mourning he ends up literally living and sleeping in an apartment in which there was a recent suicide.

The hallucinatory passages are so Pynchon-esque I am convinced it's intentional. The puns, alliteration, sight gags, music numbers, and vaudeville tropes are all uncannily Pynchon. There's just no way he is unaware of how on the nose this impersonation of the other old, great, living, American writer is. The thematic content of the book more generally too, the obsession with mathematics, non-linearity, fate, all echoes Pynchon's career themes, though less blatantly and directly.

It seems odd to me a writer of McCarthy's stature would so directly reference a contemporary in this way, in what may be his final work. I'm having a hard time reconciling that. It's so blatant it goes beyond mere reference into the realm of omage for me. Again, seems like kind of an odd thing to do in what might be his ultimate work.

hobbez fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Dec 21, 2022

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
Is there a particular Pynchon it reminds you of? Or a best example?

AngusPodgorny
Jun 3, 2004

Please to be restful, it is only a puffin that has from the puffin place outbroken.

King Carnivore posted:

I do agree with you about the hallucinations half of the book being a slog. It’s a pretty common refrain ITT from what I’ve seen. I don’t know if I’m going to read Stella Maris, it sounds like it’s going to be a whole book of that.
There isn't a single hallucination in Stella Maris, so you're safe on that account. It's entirely a series of dialogues between Alicia and her psychiatrist, so it's most like The Counselor, but with even less description (none if I remember right).

King Carnivore
Dec 17, 2007

Graveyard Disciple
The obsession with physics and mathematics is a departure from his usual form as well, at least in his books. I can’t think of any other book of his that’s as mathematical. Normally that obsession is reserved for the natural world and the darkness in men’s hearts.

It kind of felt to me like he “got into” quantum physics and math and wanted to incorporate the fundamental languages of the universe into a book. I think there might be parallels between Bobby admiring physics and math but feeling he’s not good enough to “do” them and the author himself.

The only other similar thing I’ve read from him is a semi-scholarly essay called The Kekulé Problem for the Santa Fe institute, published in 2017, where he writes about the intersection of science, language and the unconscious. The anecdotes in this article also suggests to me that he prefers the company and conversation of scientists rather than other creatives.

hobbez
Mar 1, 2012

Don't care. Just do not care. We win, you lose. You do though, you seem to care very much

I'm going to go ride my mountain bike, later nerds.

Jewmanji posted:

Is there a particular Pynchon it reminds you of? Or a best example?

Both against the day and gravity's rainbow have many random, impromptu vaudeville acts. Puns, alliteration, and nonsense are generally rife throughout.

Maybe later I'll grab my copies and find some specific examples to chew on.

Apsyrtes
May 17, 2004

King Carnivore posted:

The only other similar thing I’ve read from him is a semi-scholarly essay called The Kekulé Problem for the Santa Fe institute, published in 2017, where he writes about the intersection of science, language and the unconscious. The anecdotes in this article also suggests to me that he prefers the company and conversation of scientists rather than other creatives.

He has been with the Santa Fe institute since basically the beginning - he's the one non-scientist guy that works there (trustee and senior fellow). So he surrounds himself at work with some really great scientists doing some very interesting science.

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012

Man, I waited for this book to come out forever and it just doesn’t sound like my cup of tea. I guess I really wanted something similar to NCFOM?

HashtagGirlboss
Jan 4, 2005

King Carnivore posted:

He killed the pilot light opened up the burners on the stove and ate the gas. As you said, it mentions him sealing beneath the door. The death isn’t made out to be big deal because what’s another wino suicide in New Orleans?

I liked the book a lot, but it’s far from his best and I say that as Cormac-head who’s read almost the entire catalog up to this point, save The Stone Mason. Greatest living American author for sure, IMO. I do agree with you about the hallucinations half of the book being a slog. It’s a pretty common refrain ITT from what I’ve seen. I don’t know if I’m going to read Stella Maris, it sounds like it’s going to be a whole book of that.

I don’t think The Passenger is the best place to start. Any from the following: Blood Meridian, NCFOM, The Road and the Borders Trilogy, would be my pick. If I had to pick one, it’d be The Road. I’ve read it about a dozen times. For me it’s one of those books I can pick up anytime read it all the way through and then go right back and start in on page one again. If I were to pick one based upon which is the greatest literary achievement, it’d be Blood Meridian.

I would say definitely give him another chance, even if you weren’t crazy about The Passenger.

I’ve never read the road because I don’t like post apocalyptic stuff. It just makes me anxious in a bad way. Idk why I can deal with bleakness and horror and awfulness but not post apocalyptic settings

Blood Meridian is a beautiful book and expansive and I hated it when I was a teenager because I worked way to hard trying to follow the precise plot instead of just getting lost in the expansiveness of the language, dropped it before they even got to Mexico, picked it up again five years ago and just adored it

Second NCFOM and borders as good starting points, but also Child of God was the first of his books I actually read cover to cover. I know people usually put it in the middle when they rank his works but (and being my first probably plays into this) it stuck with me for a long while, especially the ending, and I’d recommend it to anyone who can deal with the subject matter

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming
I just finished All The Pretty Horses and it didn't do it for me the way Blood Meridian and Suttree did.

King Carnivore
Dec 17, 2007

Graveyard Disciple
Borders is very different from his other stuff. Not really all that dark. Almost a Cormac take on youth fiction. Different but I loved the trilogy.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007
The Crossing is one of the bleakest stories he’s written (also one of the best)

King Carnivore
Dec 17, 2007

Graveyard Disciple
It’s not infants getting their skulls dashed on rocks and gore streaming out of the fontanel bleak.

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming
Suttree was not full of gratuitous violence and I loved that too. Horses definitely felt like a McCarthy YA novel. I'm still gonna read the rest of the Border trilogy, but I am actually re-reading Blood Meridian again because gently caress it, that book was so good.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
I think we’re stretching the definition of YA just a bit.

his actual YA book is The Road

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming
Yeah I dunno who I think I am. Two months ago I'd never read McCarthy and here I am criticizing one of his books as YA. The narrator being a teenager doesn't make it YA.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
But the narrator isn’t a teenager either. It’s partially omniscient third person. In the fact the character you’re thinking of isn’t even a teenager.

Carly Gay Dead Son
Aug 27, 2007

Bonus.

Jewmanji posted:

But the narrator isn’t a teenager either. It’s partially omniscient third person. In the fact the character you’re thinking of isn’t even a teenager.

John Grady Cole not a teenager?

Also, for what it’s worth, All The Pretty Horses did not amaze me either, but the Border Trilogy as a whole turned out one of the most deeply moving reading experiences of my life.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
Oh whoops, I was thinking of The Road. Move along. Sorry.

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hobbez
Mar 1, 2012

Don't care. Just do not care. We win, you lose. You do though, you seem to care very much

I'm going to go ride my mountain bike, later nerds.

Professor Shark posted:

Man, I waited for this book to come out forever and it just doesn’t sound like my cup of tea. I guess I really wanted something similar to NCFOM?

If you've liked him in the past idk I'd give it a shot.

I'm halfway through and it's really growing on me. Really enjoying how the story of this family, and specifically Bobby and Alicia's relationship, slowly unfolds. McCarthy really shows, no telling done here at all. The themes slowly reveal themselves and just simmer. They always come back around and get examined from another angle.

This line really stopped me in my tracks:

quote:

“Grief is the stuff of life. A life without grief is no life at all. But regret is a prison. Some part of you which you deeply value lies forever impaled at a crossroads you can no longer find and never forget.”

:drat: That's some good poo poo.

We'll see if it stays this way but I'm good and hooked right now! At the very least I'm super excited to dig into his other work now, having only read the road in college and which I can't say I remember much about.

hobbez fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Dec 28, 2022

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