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At no point in the original films is a "Light Side" of the Force mentioned. It's always just "The Force" and the "Dark Side of the Force". I always took it as there is a natural order to things, which naturally benefits and guides everyone (The Force) and a corruption and hijacking of this force to your enforce your own will (The Dark Side). By introducing a "Light Side", it makes it seem like being a good person is just like another point of view. I guess it was great for marketing. Do you like vanilla Oreos or do you like chocolate Oreos? But I always thought it ruined things. To me, from what the original films show, it seemed like the Jedi were a small, secretive cult that fought evil behind the scenes and communed with nature. And I think that's way better than what it became. It also made the "bring balance to the Force" prophesy extremely confusing. All Light Side is balance? No Sides at all? George Lucas, you knew what the endgame was, how did you still mess this up so badly? I also thought it was really funny that Darth Plagueis actually existed and wasn't just a lie to make Anakin do what Palpatine wanted. Oddly convenient for Sheev. Also, people in the Star Wars universe really love their empires. When the first one blew up and the new one already had most of the galaxy joining their ranks within a couple years while the new republic had just a "resistance", that's a sign no one wants your government. Discuss what changes to the lore or better interpretations to existing lore you would have made or how you would have written the prequels or whatever. (More Jarjar.)
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Nov 22, 2022 21:08
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No other Jedi survived the OT. By the end of ROTJ, Luke is not just the last Jedi but Leia is also the only potential student. Scrap the sequel trilogy we got, but have one movie with the original cast where they get a chance to appreciate what they accomplished (even as they're aware that thanks to the above, things will get screwy in the long term). Actual sequel trilogy is set a couple of hundred years after ROTJ, and the consequences of every Force-user being related has created a new sucky situation that isn't just the OT recycled.
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Nov 22, 2022 21:56
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"The Light Side of the Force" was always my least favorite Reader's Digest feature.
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Nov 23, 2022 09:17
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i would do away with Rogue 1, OP. it was only alright and i dont care for the implication that a saboteur build a fatal in the Death Star that was meant for people to exploit versus the original reading that was more the idea that Tarkin and by extension the Empire thought they were too big to fail.
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Nov 24, 2022 04:29
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SirPhoebos posted:No other Jedi survived the OT. By the end of ROTJ, Luke is not just the last Jedi but Leia is also the only potential student. Yeah, it really sucked how the new movies basically made everything that happened in the original trilogy basically pointless and made Luke basically pointless even though he's supposed to be one of the most important Jedi ever. I also thought the sequels should have been set far into the future or been actual sequels, not a terrible recycling of the original story, but far worse. I'll never understand how you could be handed one of the most profitable and famous franchises ever and basically put no thought into any of it. Sally posted:i would do away with Rogue 1, OP. it was only alright and i dont care for the implication that a saboteur build a fatal in the Death Star that was meant for people to exploit versus the original reading that was more the idea that Tarkin and by extension the Empire thought they were too big to fail. I thought it was really weird how they had Leia's ship escape from that battle and then try to play coy about the stolen battle plans and act so offended they'd have the nerve to attack a diplomatic ship.
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Nov 24, 2022 14:02
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Shadow0 posted:I thought it was really weird how they had Leia's ship escape from that battle and then try to play coy about the stolen battle plans and act so offended they'd have the nerve to attack a diplomatic ship. Wasn't Leia's ship far away and had the plans beamed to it? It's been a while since I watched the movie because it's bad but that's how I remember it.
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Nov 24, 2022 16:21
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Man with Hat posted:Wasn't Leia's ship far away and had the plans beamed to it? It's been a while since I watched the movie because it's bad but that's how I remember it. No, Vader watches the ship fly off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXTUOxbgpw
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Nov 24, 2022 16:26
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See, I love that because it means Leia is blatantly lying to Vader's face and they both know it and she doesn't give a gently caress.
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Nov 24, 2022 17:06
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The Light Side of the Force was invented by West End Games for their RPG in the 80's. Lucas' notes and interviews from the making of the Original Trilogy always refer to it as "The Good Side", but because subsequent EU authors were given the RPG sourcebooks as reference material, the Light Side became a standard part of the universe despite it not actually existing in the original movies.
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Nov 24, 2022 22:08
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Shadow0 posted:No, Vader watches the ship fly off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXTUOxbgpw lol Apparently the movie gave us Andor which led to a good show at least, I had forgotten that character from the movie completely. And the part where Vader kills a bunch of people is dope.
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Nov 25, 2022 00:25
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Robot Style posted:The Light Side of the Force was invented by West End Games for their RPG in the 80's. Lucas' notes and interviews from the making of the Original Trilogy always refer to it as "The Good Side", but because subsequent EU authors were given the RPG sourcebooks as reference material, the Light Side became a standard part of the universe despite it not actually existing in the original movies. Oh, neat! Somehow "the Good Side" is even worse, haha. Of course George Lucas came up with that. Man with Hat posted:lol Another change I would have made - make Darth Vader the only fallen Jedi and the only Sith to use a lightsaber. Make him truly unique and special and powerful. It's a Jedi weapon, and he's the fallen Jedi. Give the Sith their own unique thing. And it's the same problem with all these Death Star clones. So many similar things keep happening in that universe, you start to feel like the events of the Original Trilogy really don't have much meaning.
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Nov 25, 2022 10:45
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Yeah OP's ideas about the force are why I always despised the "woo 'grey Jedi' is the proper solution" and "the ultimate solution is to use the dark side but just a little" that a whole shitload of fans really really love the idea of. The series shows over and over that the 'dark side' is just bad. It's not always a both-sides thing here. There's also this idea that the old Jedi way was wrong and an incorrect way. What, it managed to keep probably hundreds of thousands of force users largely under control for tens of thousands of years and only failed when they broke their own rules to let someone too old in. If they'd stuck to their guns they would've been fine. It may not be the only way to do things and maybe there are better ways but its failure was them not following its precepts. On the other hand, 'let's just be cool with a bunch of emotions without a system' has demonstrably hosed up very very quickly when applied to only a handful of examples. Shadow0 posted:I thought it was really weird how they had Leia's ship escape from that battle and then try to play coy about the stolen battle plans and act so offended they'd have the nerve to attack a diplomatic ship. Keep in mind that at that point she didn't know the Senate had been dissolved. She was playing deniability and the hope that her position would let her bluff her way out. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Nov 25, 2022 |
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Nov 25, 2022 11:41
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MikeJF posted:There's also this idea that the old Jedi way was wrong and an incorrect way. What, it managed to keep probably hundreds of thousands of force users largely under control for tens of thousands of years and only failed when they broke their own rules to let someone too old in. If they'd stuck to their guns they would've been fine. It may not be the only way to do things and maybe there are better ways but its failure was them not following its precepts. On the other hand, 'let's just be cool with a bunch of emotions without a system' has demonstrably hosed up very very quickly when applied to only a handful of examples. To be fair that one does have some support in the movies. Mace Windu and Yoda do beifly mention that the Jedi's ability to use the force is diminishing. However if Lucas meant that it was indeed the Jedi cutting themsevles off from their emotions that was causing it then yeah he could hace done hell of a better job than what prequels communicated. Like maybe if instead of having the jedi temple in the middle of a bustling metropolis on Corusant a hop and a skip away from the senate, maybe in just alone on a otherwise desterted backwater. Maybe instead of the jedi all being killed off by the clone troopers, maybe they just loose their powers or go on to become force ghosts. However wether he meant that or that the diminishing was caused by Palpatine loving around was his intention after all, like a lot of the more interesting ideas in the prequels, ran headfirst into Lucas' shortcomings as a director like it was a brick wall. David D. Davidson fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Nov 25, 2022 |
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Nov 25, 2022 16:30
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MikeJF posted:Yeah OP's ideas about the force are why I always despised the "woo 'grey Jedi' is the proper solution" and "the ultimate solution is to use the dark side but just a little" that a whole shitload of fans really really love the idea of. The series shows over and over that the 'dark side' is just bad. It's not always a both-sides thing here. Does it? Or do we just hear from a lot of people who believe it? Bear in mind that in RofJ, Luke goes all apeshit on Vader for a while, and then just collects himself. So it's not just "Oh, you gave in to anger, now it controls your destiny." Even Vader, who has done no small amount of Dark Side crap, is able to change his mind at the end. Is it possible he would have changed his mind a lot earlier if he hadn't learned the Force from a bunch of guys who think the Dark Side is always irredeemable? There's no textual support either way that I know of, but I think there could be interesting stories in that space. I also think the prequel trilogy makes it clear that the Jedi had lost their way, and that what TLJ was trying to do was a worthwhile project. It just failed to stick the landing.
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Nov 25, 2022 16:43
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A Jedi getting angry once or twice isn't going to make them evil, but Luke wailing on Vader ended with him realizing he was becoming just like him and throwing away his lightsaber - which is the important part. After experiencing the Dark Side, he rejected it to the point where he'd rather die than use it to win. He wasn't thinking about his Dark Side Threshold or whatever and holding back because he didn't want to gain too many Evil Points. And I do think a lot of Grey Jedi proponents think of the Force in very game-like terms. The WEG RPG ruled that every time a Force-using player "uses the Force in an immoral way", they gain a permanent Dark Side point, and the GM rolls a D6. If the roll is lower than the number of Dark Side Points the player has accrued, they fall to the Dark Side and lose their character (only because the game was written with heroic Rebel-aligned characters in mind and they weren't set up for evil player characters). The revised 2nd edition expanded this to allow Dark Side players, but had specific rules for them that made it harder to use the Force each time, and failing to successfully use the Dark Side resulted in the character's stats being permanently reduced. The D20 version of the game published by Wizards of the Coast also allowed players to use the Dark Side, and also had players accumulate permanent Dark Side Points whenever they did. When the number of accumulated Dark Side Points is equal to half their Wisdom score, they begin their journey to the Dark Side, and have to pass willpower saving throws to avoid falling completely. The consequences of falling to the Dark Side in this game are much less severe than the previous one - being a Dark Side character adds up to +4 to rolls to use Dark Side powers and subtracts as much as -8 on rolls to use Light Side powers. There are no other penalties for falling to the Dark Side. Knights of the Old Republic used this version of the RPG as the starting point for its rules, and it's no secret that a lot of Grey Jedi proponents are also big Revan fans. And that makes a lot of sense - a powerful enough character can mitigate the penalties of being a Dark Side user if their stats are high enough, and the video game also made Light side users receive penalties on Dark Side powers, so the optimal combat strategy was actually to be somewhere in the middle. And that's what I think a lot of Grey Jedi fans are after - optimal combat strategy. They want to be able to heal their wounds and fry their enemies in equal measure, and the video games let them do that. There's been a lot of Jedi games over the years, and all of them require the player to kill dozens, if not hundreds of people. KOTOR II tried to tackle this by doing the "EXP stands for Execution Points" twist a decade before Undertale, but the only Star Wars game that actually provided a tangible narrative consequence for the player using the Dark Side was Jedi Knight, where the game can decide "nope, you fell to the Dark Side. You lose all your Light Side powers and kill your girlfriend." All the other Star Wars games that have Light or Dark endings allow the player to choose which one they get, and a heroic Darksider can spend the game's final act blasting everyone in sight with lightning until the Republic gives them a medal. Game Mechanics are just fundamentally at odds with how Jedi are supposed to behave. As a game designer, you want the player to feel a sense of progression, that their character is becoming more powerful. But Jedi aren't supposed to care about accumulating power. And even if we allow that a game needs the player to have some sense of improvement, the primary way they're allowed to interact with the world is through violence, so the vast majority of character progression is geared towards becoming better at killing. Even in RPGs like KOTOR, which place more emphasis on character interaction, it's impossible to even bypass the tutorial area without killing a bunch of people. But Star Wars video games are more popular than Star Wars novels or comics. When a Star Wars novel in 2002 had a character lay out some pretty compelling reasons for the Dark Side not even existing, fans argued about it for years until a later book had to concretely state that the character in question was secretly a Sith and had been lying the whole time. But the amount of people who gave a poo poo about that is miniscule compared to the number of people who played the video games. Star Wars mainstay Michael A. Stackpole once claimed that some of his books sold as many as 100,000 copies, while KOTOR sold 3.2 million copies from 2003-2007. For better or worse, the Grey Jedi adjacent video game version of Star Wars is what most people think the Force is outside of what's directly stated in the movies.
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Nov 25, 2022 19:07
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What was the 2002 book that has the no dark side secret sith?
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Nov 25, 2022 19:53
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Traitor, by Matthew Stover. Han & Leia's son gets kidnapped by BDSM aliens, and a purple chicken with magic tears joins his escape into the depths of occupied Coruscant. One of her claims is that the Jedi invented the Dark Side as a way to absolve themselves from responsibility when they did evil things, and to allow them to kill people while still staying ethically pure as long as they didn't get angry when they did it.
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Nov 25, 2022 20:24
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There was a SWTOR trailer that had a Jedi and Sith fighting that ended with the Jedi using the Force to slam her opponent into the side of a cliff multiple times.
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Nov 26, 2022 05:40
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Shadow0 posted:Oh, neat! this is just semantics though, isn't it? functionally "Light Side of the Force" = "Good Side of the Force" = "the Force", only difference is last one is shorter to type problems arise when people get confused and introduce other stuff: either "Grey Side" D&Disms where there's some third neutral state between [Light Side of] the Force and the Dark Side, or Taoist misintepretation where the Force and the Dark Side are equal and opposite forces like yin and yang and you need both for true balance. but in Star Wars the Force already is "balance", and the Dark Side is any excess - of fear, hate, love, pride - untempered by wisdom and humility. the terminology is fine, it's all these other ideas bolted on that mess it up the term "Light Side" probably leads people to making these assumptions but to be fair "Dark Side" leads people to assuming there's a "Light Side" as well. if they just said Vader was out of balance this could all have been avoided
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Nov 26, 2022 12:01
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Maybe Lucas should have stuck with is original names for the Force - the Ashla and the Bogan.
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Nov 26, 2022 20:17
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Robot Style posted:Traitor, by Matthew Stover. Han & Leia's son gets kidnapped by BDSM aliens, and a purple chicken with magic tears joins his escape into the depths of occupied Coruscant. One of her claims is that the Jedi invented the Dark Side as a way to absolve themselves from responsibility when they did evil things, and to allow them to kill people while still staying ethically pure as long as they didn't get angry when they did it. Traitor is such an interesting novel and I am so disappointed that the decision in the end was "No, this character is a Sith, not someone with weird opinions."
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Nov 26, 2022 23:10
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karmicknight posted:Traitor is such an interesting novel and I am so disappointed that the decision in the end was "No, this character is a Sith, not someone with weird opinions." Completely agree. A huge part of my problem with the later movies and novels is that everyone wanted to just iterate on the formula, not do anything to make it more interesting. Spectacle can only take a series so far.
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Nov 26, 2022 23:58
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If the light side is generally on top of things and the chosen one will bring balance to the force, that means the chosen one is gonna be a bad guy who kills a lot of light side guys, they should've really seen it coming.
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Nov 27, 2022 01:09
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Animal-Mother posted:If the light side is generally on top of things and the chosen one will bring balance to the force, that means the chosen one is gonna be a bad guy who kills a lot of light side guys, they should've really seen it coming. "There's no difference between good things and bad things" is basically the root of everything wrong with Star Wars games, yeah
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Nov 27, 2022 03:12
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Shadow0 posted:Oh, neat! I believe it was referred to in his notes as the "Good" side to avoid confusing it with ideas of dualism, which then promptly happened when everyone presumed Dark must mean Light, therefore Sith and Jedi are just the same thing on different spectrums. When what was intended is that balance is brought to the Force when the "Good" side defeats and vanquishes the Dark Side by putting an end to the Sith.
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Nov 27, 2022 09:34
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If that was the case they should've called it, like, the Pure side. Or not even 'side'. Call it the Force Uncorrupted.
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Nov 27, 2022 11:22
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MikeJF posted:If that was the case they should've called it, like, the Pure side. Or not even 'side'. Call it the Force Uncorrupted. When was the first time the "Light Side" was mentioned by that name on screen? I don't recall seeing it spelled out that way until the Clone Wars episode with the Father, Daughter, and Son. And I don't think they even used "Light Side" until Han says it in The Force Awakens. Up until then it's always the Force, and the Dark Side of the Force. I am prepared to be wrong though.
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Nov 27, 2022 21:07
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I have to admit, I'm one of those that only played the games. It does work really well as a game mechanic if you want something like Mass Effect or WoW, that's for sure - which they did.Ironslave posted:I believe it was referred to in his notes as the "Good" side to avoid confusing it with ideas of dualism, which then promptly happened when everyone presumed Dark must mean Light, therefore Sith and Jedi are just the same thing on different spectrums. When what was intended is that balance is brought to the Force when the "Good" side defeats and vanquishes the Dark Side by putting an end to the Sith. MikeJF posted:If that was the case they should've called it, like, the Pure side. Or not even 'side'. Call it the Force Uncorrupted. Yeah, I think "Dark Side" just naturally presumes a "Light Side" unless you actively name it something. Taking out the "Side" from the name of the not-Dark-Side would probably be the best way to dispel the dualism. I also like the notion that the Dark Side is a corruption of the Force and since the Force is life itself, that comes at a personal cost. Vader in his suit or Palpatine becoming old and disfigured. The Dark Side should be something like burning away a part of yourself for gaining apparent strength - the cost of anger. You feel strong when you're angry, but you're not, you're just (self-)destructive - which lines up with Yoda's claim that the Dark Side isn't more powerful. You don't really see Dooku suffering in anyway from using the Dark Side. Indeed, there's really not much to distinguish him from a Jedi aside from a red lightsaber. I feel like they were so close to these ideas without actually making them concrete and canonical. Maybe someone in the novels did.
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Nov 28, 2022 10:14
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It'd be neat if there were stories of people who'd fallen to the dark side through overindulgence of traditionally positive emotions with the force too, manifesting very differently and less traditionally evil-y but ending up just as corrupt and destructive under a guise of goodness.
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Nov 28, 2022 10:54
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Shadow0 posted:. (More Jarjar.) they should put jarjar in andor.
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Nov 28, 2022 11:02
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David D. Davidson posted:To be fair that one does have some support in the movies. Mace Windu and Yoda do beifly mention that the Jedi's ability to use the force is diminishing. However if Lucas meant that it was indeed the Jedi cutting themsevles off from their emotions that was causing it then yeah he could hace done hell of a better job than what prequels communicated. Like maybe if instead of having the jedi temple in the middle of a bustling metropolis on Corusant a hop and a skip away from the senate, maybe in just alone on a otherwise desterted backwater. Maybe instead of the jedi all being killed off by the clone troopers, maybe they just loose their powers or go on to become force ghosts. The diminishing is living in a big temple in the centre of Coruscant and getting drawn into corrupting political machinations. Getting stuck alone in a desert backwater is what makes Obi-wan good again (for a given value of good)
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Nov 28, 2022 11:04
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josh04 posted:The diminishing is living in a big temple in the centre of Coruscant and getting drawn into corrupting political machinations. Getting stuck alone in a desert backwater is what makes Obi-wan good again (for a given value of good) Yeah. The point is that they lack perspective because they are at the center of the machine. The Jedi in prequels are losing their ability to see outside the machine, which is what gets them got in the end. The Jedi we see who have returned to nature have done so literally, Yoda and Kenobi living in extreme environments in exile lets them regain an outsiders perspective and thus achieve wisdom.
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Nov 28, 2022 11:10
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I think there was also meant to be an implication that the diminishing force may have had something to do with the Sith's plans nearing fruition, but then it's entirely possible that the Sith manipulated them towards that kind of loss of perspective and clustering on coruscant and becoming part of the apparatus of state.
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Nov 28, 2022 11:21
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I have a question about some light-side user stuff that may possibly be answered in the movies but I simply don't remember seeing: After the Jedi are eradicated and Anakin kills all the kids at the temple, after he's done and leaves to go do Sith stuff, what happens to the actual Jedi Temple itself? Like at some point after his training and victory, if Luke where to have returned, could he have taken up shop in the ol' Temple? Or was it destroyed or re-purposed by the city or what?
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Nov 28, 2022 17:05
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Palps renovated into his palace as a big ol' gently caress-you. Not sure what happened to it in the New Republic era but it's stuffed to the brim with sith stuff and dark side bits and bobs and would need a good cleansing. (It's visible in the background of the ROTJ Coruscant celebration, I think it got added in the 2000 or 2004 version? It wasn't there in the 1997 version) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Nov 28, 2022 |
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Nov 28, 2022 17:21
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I'm not sad that they reclassified most of the star wars books as legends but I think they really should have left the prequel era stuff in canon because they serve as nice support beams to the films, rather than stuff being added on after the fact. Clone Wars does a really good job of covering everything that happens right before RotS at least which is good.
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Nov 28, 2022 18:08
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Coruscant's largely been off-limits in the New Republic era because the Sequels were going to address what happened to it. In The Force Awakens, JJ Abrams wanted Starkiller Base to blow it up, but the idea was nixed by Lucasfilm, so it became Hosnian Prime instead. In Colin Trevorrow's Duel of the Fates, Coruscant had become dilapidated and the First Order was using it as their headquarters. The Jedi Temple was largely abandoned, and Finn & Rose traveled there to activate an ancient Jedi beacon that could get past the First Order's galaxy-wide communications blockade. In an earlier version of The Rise of Skywalker, Palpatine had been resurrected beneath the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, and the planet's surface otherwise seemed to be abandoned, with packs of wild animals able to roam freely. A book called The Galactic Explorer's Guide published in late 2019 mentioned that Coruscant had suffered a "descent into lawlessness", but I think that's been the most direct reference to the overall state of the planet in that era.
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Nov 28, 2022 18:10
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It kinda makes sense that Coruscant's existence became unsustainable once all the structures of first the old republic and later the Empire which supported and supplied it went away. It's a similar plot point to Trantor in Foundation: once the Empire was no longer able to support Trantor, the planet-city brutally collapsed. Rick posted:I'm not sad that they reclassified most of the star wars books as legends but I think they really should have left the prequel era stuff in canon because they serve as nice support beams to the films, rather than stuff being added on after the fact. Clone Wars does a really good job of covering everything that happens right before RotS at least which is good. A lot of it's being appropriated back into canon, at least. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 28, 2022 |
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Nov 28, 2022 18:41
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Robot Style posted:In The Force Awakens, JJ Abrams wanted Starkiller Base to blow it up, but the idea was nixed by Lucasfilm, so it became Hosnian Prime instead. It's still so funny that Abrams blew up the politics planet. Emrikol fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Nov 28, 2022 |
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Nov 28, 2022 19:18
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karmicknight posted:Yeah. The point is that they lack perspective because they are at the center of the machine. The Jedi in prequels are losing their ability to see outside the machine, which is what gets them got in the end. The Jedi we see who have returned to nature have done so literally, Yoda and Kenobi living in extreme environments in exile lets them regain an outsiders perspective and thus achieve wisdom. I feel like they really didn't make this transparent enough if that's what they were going for. When I saw the movies, it seemed like Jedi fell only because Palpatine was so stupid strong in the Force, that he was able to alter everything in the universe and even spawn Space Jesus. Though the prequels were a bit of a narrative mess anyway, so it's hard to say what the ideas were supposed to be. Everything is ultimately just because Qui-gon insisted they train some boy he found even though everyone was suspicious and worried about him from the start and he was too old to be fully indoctrinated. Also, it never really made sense that the Jedi were so out front and obvious, only to have 20 years later, everyone suddenly deciding they weren't even real. They had a massive temple in the middle of the capital city and powerful members that had huge political influence. They even started and led an entire galactic war that broke out. The Jedi should have always been a secret cult of a few members, maybe a couple hundred at most. Space druids.
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Nov 29, 2022 00:27
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