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Yes he knew the sequence, but runners tipping batters isn't illegal. What was illegal was the video room decoding sequences during the game itself. You're allowed to use video to decode the sequences outside of the game. The Astros were sending the pitch direct from the video room. Its a big difference.
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Feb 14, 2023 16:07
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I guess I don't agree that it's a meaningful distinction. Certainly not enough of one where everyone who was doing the former was just being a bit naughty and everyone who did the latter is basically the Black Sox and deserved to be banned from baseball and shot. I know you're not saying that but lots of people genuinely think every member of the '17 team should get the Pete Rose treatment.
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Feb 14, 2023 16:11
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Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:The New England Patriots tier (they cheated, were caught, celebrated as champs cause no-one cares): 
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Feb 14, 2023 16:16
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lol oh ya the Yankees didn't win poo poo. But I consider them in the "gently caress the" tier along with the Patriots.
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Feb 14, 2023 16:19
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zoux posted:I guess I don't agree that it's a meaningful distinction. Certainly not enough of one where everyone who was doing the former was just being a bit naughty and everyone who did the latter is basically the Black Sox and deserved to be banned from baseball and shot. I know you're not saying that but lots of people genuinely think every member of the '17 team should get the Pete Rose treatment. It's not cheating if you only do it in high leverage situations with a runner in scoring position. The crime was the video decoding not the trash can - let's say the Astros figured out that where a pitcher set his glove indicated what a pitch was going to be (like they did to Tyler Glasnow in 2019) and then banged a can in the dugout every time they saw that - that's not against the rules. Figuring out the signs using cameras in the stadium was the crime - everything else is just ways people use to justify to themselves that the Astros are actually worse since they're so dug in at this point. Sab0921 fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 16:28
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Sab0921 posted:It's not cheating if you only do it in high leverage situations with a runner in scoring position. Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:They are both cheating and both should be considered as such
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Feb 14, 2023 16:30
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The MLB understandably went light on the punishments because we live in an era where whatever scandal you have on your hands is really only ever as big as you acknowledge it to be. They didn't treat it as a big deal, so it wasn't a big deal. I'd call it textbook crisis management on the part of the league.
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Feb 14, 2023 16:35
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Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:I also don't care about voiding world series' or whatever, because I don't think you can say the Astros' 2017 title should be voided and then not void the Red Sox title and then in the future not void the Cubs' or Royals' or Dodgers' when it comes out they were doing something similar. This one is interesting because one of the key pieces of evidence that Dodgers fans here use to justify to themselves that the Astros are beyond reproach is that they didn't have a bunch of swings and misses against Kershaw breaking balls when playing in Houston. But check this out from the Royals-Mets World Series, The Royals had 0 swings and misses against DeGrom fastballs in the World Series. HOW DEEP DOES IT GO????  - https://www.si.com/mlb/2015/10/29/royals-mets-world-series-game-2
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Feb 14, 2023 16:58
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Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:lol oh ya the Yankees didn't win poo poo. well both fanbases ARE fans of tampering with the ball
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Feb 14, 2023 18:09
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zoux posted:I guess I don't agree that it's a meaningful distinction. Certainly not enough of one where everyone who was doing the former was just being a bit naughty and everyone who did the latter is basically the Black Sox and deserved to be banned from baseball and shot. I know you're not saying that but lots of people genuinely think every member of the '17 team should get the Pete Rose treatment. Cheating which involves outside elements like guys in the stands with binoculars or something is always going to be looked upon as much worse than people on the field being naughty. It's just one of those things op.
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Feb 14, 2023 18:26
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lol if you guys think the Astros is bad you should see the stuff McLaren were up to in 2007. This is child's play levels of cheating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Formula_One_espionage_controversy
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Feb 14, 2023 18:34
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Kirios posted:lol if you guys think the Astros is bad you should see the stuff McLaren were up to in 2007. Don't move the goalposts now, this thread is for damning the cheating Astros and their cheating ways. Motorsport does have some of the best cheating though
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Feb 15, 2023 01:15
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Just give the pitcher/catcher their phones and earbuds. Stealing signals becomes an actual crime.
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Feb 15, 2023 02:26
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pseudodragon posted:Just give the pitcher/catcher their phones and earbuds. Stealing signals becomes an actual crime. They've already got pitchcom so stealing signs isn't really a thing anymore, even the traditional way I guess now they'll have to find a way to electronically intercept the pitchcom signals
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Feb 15, 2023 03:50
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Evan Gattis tweeted some stuff about the Astros cheating in 2017. https://twitter.com/BulldogBeing/status/1645496200374673408
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Apr 10, 2023 22:44
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Screenshotted for posterity:     I originally assumed dude was just wasted af when he decided to hop on twitter but his first tweets about the cheating started over 14 hours ago and he's still posting updates as of the last 30 minutes, so either he's on a hell of a bender or just does not give a poo poo now that he's out of the league.
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Apr 10, 2023 22:46
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Have not read this thread until now, good to see Sab is still on the usual minimization bullshit. Does it matter that an actual player on the 2017 Astros said explicitly that he remembers having the signs against Kershaw and that it was noteworthy his team had so few whiffs against him? No because of this Royals-Mets game in 2015! Kirios posted:If me and bawfuls can make up then anyone else can. But the cheating still matters to me even after the 2020 Dodgers title because it still impacts Kershaw’s legacy and The Narrative. If they don’t have his signs in Houston and he wins Game 5, there’s a good chance Kershaw is WS MVP and the October Kershaw stuff is well and truly dead. Instead, The Narrative lives because the nature of the 2020 season makes it easy for people to discount his excellent performances that October. Also cause you know, I would have been at the clinching game (and subsequent parade) instead of watching from home during a global pandemic. So yeah I don’t think there will ever be a time when I can say I don’t care about the Astros cheating in the 2017 World Series. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Apr 10, 2023 |
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Apr 10, 2023 22:57
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Sydin posted:I originally assumed dude was just wasted af when he decided to hop on twitter but his first tweets about the cheating started over 14 hours ago and he's still posting updates as of the last 30 minutes, so either he's on a hell of a bender or just does not give a poo poo now that he's out of the league. More than likely both....I believe everything tho. When you just dgaf that's when the honest poo poo comes out.
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Apr 10, 2023 23:08
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I think the Astros got pretty much the exact punishment they deserve. Video feed was a step beyond - every professional sport has a bunch of skulduggery by the people who participate in it, and researching pitch signs to get an edge is as old as the game itself. MLB was never going to vacate the title because then people were going to whatabout whatever team they don't like who they don't feel got deservedly punished and we'd have this conversation on a organization-wide scale and quite frankly I would rather loving die than hear what xyz twitter user thinks is an "illegitimate" WS win. As pointed out - Astros won the WS with what was probably about 80% the same team so you can't even argue that they "wouldn't have won at all" and it takes a lot of willful ignorance to deny that. I think anyone who is blisteringly mad that the title wasn't vacated and people weren't Black Sox'd 6 years out are a bit much. Chill out, y'all, it's just baseball.
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Apr 10, 2023 23:08
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Monathin posted:Chill out, y'all, it's just baseball. don't you ever post this again on the internet you sick, depraved son of a gun 
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Apr 10, 2023 23:38
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It takes a real sicko to post about baseball on the deadest of dead, gay forums, SomethingAwful.com
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Apr 10, 2023 23:39
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Monathin posted:I think the Astros got pretty much the exact punishment they deserve. Video feed was a step beyond - every professional sport has a bunch of skulduggery by the people who participate in it, and researching pitch signs to get an edge is as old as the game itself. The players got zero punishment.
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Apr 10, 2023 23:46
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mcmagic posted:The players got zero punishment. Players didn't get punished because they got immunity in exchange for coming clean. Org was punished. Management sacked. Makes perfect sense to me.
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Apr 10, 2023 23:50
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2 expendable people were fired and they got slapped with a minuscule fine. The Astros were not punished in any meaningful way.
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Apr 10, 2023 23:53
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I didn’t know this thread existed but I had a bad day so why the gently caress not? - I don’t really care about the title being stripped or whatever. That’s all words. Asterisks. Whatever. Baseball has a long memory. No one is gonna forget the 2017 Astros. We’re still mad 5 years later. People are still talking about the Black Sox. That’s baseball. - Players probably should have been suspended. I dunno. There should have been some punishment that felt real and there wasn’t. That’s a big part of why people got so mad. They got away with it completely and nobody but assholes like it when the bad guy wins. - The other problem is the organization and fanbase were such assholes. They went full on narcissists prayer with it. We didn’t do it, if we did it wasn’t a big deal, if it was everyone else did it. They developed a persecution complex. MLB wouldn’t let fans mock them and announcers started taking about how much hardship they’d been through. They pretended they didn’t understand the distinction between other acts of cheating and sign stealing. They hired Dusty as a shameless cover and it worked. They’re all such assholes. - They were assholes anyway. The sign stealing was like the last thing they did to make people hate them that year. Racism. Misogyny. General rear end in a top hat behavior and shifty treatment of people. There was a kind of universal agreement even amongst many Astros fans that it was a toxic organization and then the defensiveness and tribalism started so haha it’s funny when women are laughed at and lied about because they don’t like abusers. Assholes. And that’s where I am. 2017 is gone. It’s never coming back, it’s never changing. Baseball will remember the Astros how they remember the Astros. But gently caress the Astros. They earned being hated a lot better than most teams do so gently caress them. Yes Dusty, I hate the organization and the uniform. As much as I do anyone in baseball at least. Sports have villains. Hate is toxic so I actually try and just enjoy baseball. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes I fail. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Apr 10, 2023 |
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Apr 10, 2023 23:54
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Ingesting a chemical: 80-game suspension Participating in a team-wide, organized sign-stealing scheme over multiple seasons: 0 game suspension
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Apr 10, 2023 23:56
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Vacating the title would have stillallowed for granting player immunity in exchange for cooperation with the investigation. No player loses pay, playing time eligibility, etc. But the org doesn’t get to continue to profit from the title going forward, or make reference to it. Obviously the vast majority of merch they sold was in the immediate aftermath but they still sell stuff with it and still have banners or whatever. And they’ll surely have 2017 reunion nights down the road or whatever. This all reminds me of the time I randomly sat next to an Astros scout in the food court of the Charlotte airport on a layover in 2021. I was wearing a Dodgers cap and asked him about what appeared to be a Houston WS ring on his finger. My first thought upon seeing it was “wow, kinda surprised to see someone shamelessly wearing that in public now!” but I initiated the conversation less confrontationally than that with a “hey is that a WS ring?” His attitude was simultaneously nonchalant and superior, and I was too shocked to really say anything more. He kinda bragged about his career as a scout and then he thought it necessary to explain to me that “that was the year we beat you guys” as if the person wearing a Dodgers cap and inquiring about the World Series ring on his finger somehow wasn’t aware of the 2017 Series?? It was bizarre. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 00:17
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STAC Goat posted:
Focusing on the fans, do you think any other big market fan base would have reacted any differently? Assholes are usually the loudest and I wouldn't expect anything different if the scandal happened to another team unfortunately.
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Apr 11, 2023 00:38
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I think bawfuls's post is a great illustration of how much malice you can ascribe to a normal interaction if you decide to
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Apr 11, 2023 00:42
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bawfuls posted:Vacating the title would have stillallowed for granting player immunity in exchange for cooperation with the investigation. No player loses pay, playing time eligibility, etc. But the org doesn’t get to continue to profit from the title going forward, or make reference to it. There is zero level of contrition because no one had to pay literally any price that was meaningful other than the GM, Alex Cora and Carlos Beltran. Their posture is "gently caress you, we cheated and won and nothing happened to us what are you going to do about it?" and it's been that since the second they were exposed.
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Apr 11, 2023 00:45
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Intruder posted:I think bawfuls's post is a great illustration of how much malice you can ascribe to a normal interaction if you decide to I mean whatever, it’s on me for not having a response to the guy at the time. Who knows what his attitude would have been if I’d brought up the cheating. Though he did mention he had other WS rings from previous franchises he’d scouted for over the course of his career, so again the choice to wear 2017 in public even after the cheating was revealed, indicates a lack of shame or embarrassment about it. As STAC mentioned, it makes sense because the league did effectively nothing. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 00:46
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MrMidnight posted:Focusing on the fans, do you think any other big market fan base would have reacted any differently? Assholes are usually the loudest and I wouldn't expect anything different if the scandal happened to another team unfortunately. There would have been the same kind of responses from other fanbases for sure. I don’t know that Astros fans are somehow especially bad. I think it’s all one big package. The organization set the mood. The league set the standards. The Dusty and “gone through so much” narratives created cover. None of it happened in a vacuum. Would other organizations have done the same thing or been provided as much cover? I dunno. Probably? But there’s also how people respond. Had the Yankees or Dodgers been the team there would have been a lot of built up hatred. A lot more people already had opinions about those teams or their fans than they did the Astros in 2017 or 2020. Similarly there wouldn’t have been as many people going “haha it’s funny because you screwed the Astros”. So yeah there would have been the same kind of loud assholes but maybe there would have been more pushback? I don’t know. Ultimately what happened happened. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 00:47
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bawfuls posted:lmao the dude thought I didn’t know who the Astros beat in the 2017 World Series despite me wearing a Dodgers cap and initiating the conversation by correctly identifying the World Series ring on his hand. Cmon now Praying for you to find peace Bawfuls. I hope you also took to the heart the portion of your new gospel where he says Altuve didn't cheat. Jose is perfect and we do not deserve him.
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Apr 11, 2023 06:03
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Gattis has been posting like a madman and I really don't feel liking running around and screenshotting it all, so here are the main narrative takeaways from his twitter stuff, as I understand it:
tl;dr - The Astros cheated in the 2017 postseason, and if you believe Gattis and want to use his attitude as a cypher to try and understand the general player mentality within the clubhouse, the belief was that everybody else was illegally getting at least some of the signs one way or another, so if everybody is cheating why feel bad about being the best at it? A sort of first among equals in dishonesty if you will. I don't really think any of what Gattis said paints the Astros in a better light, but it does firm up a lot of general assumptions about how they operated and how the 2017 postseason went down. I do think it'll be very interesting if down the line other players from that team churn out of the league and similarly start to share their stories and perspectives.
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Apr 11, 2023 07:31
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Eh, it doesn't really change the perception of the Astros and I think everyone here assumed most of that already. I do think other fanbases should probably get off the high horse that their respective teams weren't doing anything. It appears that ship has sailed - the Astros were the most egregious and were rightfully made an example of to tell everyone to knock it off immediately. However, it was definitely rampant throughout baseball.
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Apr 11, 2023 07:36
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They weren't made an example of, is the major point of contention with people still irritated about the thing
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Apr 11, 2023 07:43
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Kirios posted:Eh, it doesn't really change the perception of the Astros and I think everyone here assumed most of that already. Yeah I agree: none of it is particularly revolutionary and mostly just confirms what ~90% of the consensus was. Still good to hear it from a direct source though, and I'm sure Sab is particularly thrilled to get some direct Altuve absolution, at least as it pertains to the buzzer stuff. I do think the implication that there were a handful of teams taking cheating to the next level is pretty interesting though. Obviously you've got the Astros, but this was also around the time the Red Sox had the whole Apple Watch thing happen, and they went on to win a WS the next year off the back of Betts having the absolute best year of his already stellar career by a country mile. The Yankees also complained about the Red Sox electronically stealing signs and then MLB came back to them and said "yeah well you are too so uh". I wonder who the fourth team would be, maybe the Dodgers? Gattis says he's pretty sure they also had a sign-stealing system, but doesn't really get into the level of sophistication beyond it not being at the level of the Astros.
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Apr 11, 2023 07:45
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Shinjobi posted:They weren't made an example of, is the major point of contention with people still irritated about the thing I mean, they definitely were. You could easily argue the punishment wasn't severe enough, sure, but they were targeted. The public perception of that team is never going to change, it will forever be tainted.
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Apr 11, 2023 07:49
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The punishment was definitely not severe enough
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Apr 11, 2023 09:21
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ilmucche posted:The punishment was definitely not severe enough
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Apr 11, 2023 12:47
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