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ilmucche posted:The punishment was definitely not severe enough Where's Bane when you need him
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Apr 11, 2023 13:49
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ilmucche posted:The punishment was definitely not severe enough Also, cheating sucks rear end, and it sucks that not only is it sometimes accepted, but also often encouraged (the ol' "if you're not cheating, you're not trying" horseshit). But then we make arbitrary hardlines when it is convenient - Bonds and Clemens aren't in, but then Ortiz gets the nod. I think they all shouldn't be, but it isn't consistent. It also dilutes any future success too. Watching the Astros in the 2022 WS, and people are posting stuff about increased spin rates, Valdez rubbing his hands constantly and switching equipment, calling it "tendencies that Dominicans do." Fine, but with their past history, it makes you doubt everything they do. (disclosure - I am a Phillies fan). Jon Jones in the UFC pisses nuclear fuel. He's Walking Chernobyl. Gets suspended a few times. Then comes back and everyone is screaming "GOAT." He may have the best skills ever (I don't honestly know), but it's tainted, and it shouldn't be celebrated, otherwise cheating is again encouraged. That said, I understand why some people do it. There is a lot of money on the line. And the feeling that if everyone else is cheating, you have to as well, to ensure you keep pace. And even then, if you get caught, you've probably already made a ton of money (which is what all of this is about). Whatever. It sucks.
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Apr 11, 2023 14:07
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Wasn't there a yankee pitcher who was actually good and a free agent but everyone thought he was shook and got less money because of this? The players should at least say sorry to him Is there any pitcher in history where a batter knowing the pitch that it wouldn't effect them?
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Apr 11, 2023 14:35
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Dick Boss posted:Wasn't there a yankee pitcher who was actually good and a free agent but everyone thought he was shook and got less money because of this? The players should at least say sorry to him Randy Johnson tipped his pitches for his entire career and everyone knew it. That's about it.
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Apr 11, 2023 14:36
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Penisaurus Sex posted:Randy Johnson tipped his pitches for his entire career and everyone knew it. That bird didn't
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Apr 11, 2023 15:24
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ilmucche posted:The punishment was definitely not severe enough
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Apr 11, 2023 15:40
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The punishment was definitely not severe enough, and then on top of that Dusty Baker cried about the Astros potentially getting "unfairly targeted" by opposing pitchers so Manfred stepped in and protected them again
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Apr 11, 2023 15:43
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Kirios posted:I do think other fanbases should probably get off the high horse that their respective teams weren't doing anything. It appears that ship has sailed - the Astros were the most egregious and were rightfully made an example of to tell everyone to knock it off immediately. However, it was definitely rampant throughout baseball. As far as we know the Astros are the only team who was relaying signs to batters with the bases empty. Other teams were using replay to decipher sign systems, then telling their players, who would relay the signs to a batter if they were standing on 2B. This is a significant distinction, because only about 25% of PAs at best happen with a runner standing on second.
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Apr 11, 2023 15:45
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“Making an example of” someone means not just punishing them, but arguably over-punishing them. Kennisaw Mountain Landis made an example of the Black Sox players when he banned them from baseball for life, despite previous gamblers never facing that severity of punishment. Rob Manfred did not make an example of anyone on the Astros when he fined the billionaire owner a pathetic $5M and suspended GM/manager/bench coach for 1 year. Making an example of them would have been vacating the title, stripping them of several early round draft picks for 5+ years, a multi-year postseason ban, etc. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 15:50
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for whatever reason american sports leagues rarely strip titles apart from the NCAA. cheating is cheating but there are obvious cultural factors with the Astros here, mainly that people tend to really dislike cheating involving outside influence, or cheating on a systemic team-wide level rather than a single guy with a nail file. i mean even on this forum people loved Bonds/Clemens for the longest time and still to some extent do. i follow cycling and cheats/suspected cheats get treated differently by the fanbase via factors which are almost entirely cultural/arbitrary. i'm not trying to justify what the Astros did but it's never as simple as "cheating is cheating" when it comes to fan reaction/sentiment
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Apr 11, 2023 15:54
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bawfuls posted:“Making an example of” someone means not just punishing them, but arguably over-punishing them. Crane just played stupid and went "well I would never" and deflected the blame onto everyone else. The only one who has actually "suffered" in this is actually Luhnow, who has not gotten another job in MLB. I kind of wonder whether he is effectively shadow banned, just said gently caress it I'm going onto soccer, or some combination of both
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Apr 11, 2023 16:04
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Taking steroids during the 90’s and early 2000’s is an awful analogy for the Astros sign stealing scheme. “But people defend Bonds and Clemens!” Is not some kind of gotcha. When Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, etc were taking steroids, their use was tacitly endorsed by baseball, from the teams to the press and all the way up to the commissioner’s office. When a reporter tried to question the andro plainly visible in McGwire’s locker, the baseball press chastised the reporter for it! At no point was the Astros sign stealing system understood by everyone including the public and shrugged off as acceptable because of what it was doing for the game overall.
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Apr 11, 2023 16:05
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Feels Villeneuve posted:for whatever reason american sports leagues rarely strip titles apart from the NCAA. MLB is paranoid about its history and legacy, has been ever since the 1994 strike resulted in the World Series being canceled. Bud Selig made sure that there would be no such disruption in title lineage ever again.
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Apr 11, 2023 16:07
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bawfuls posted:Taking steroids during the 90’s and early 2000’s is an awful analogy for the Astros sign stealing scheme. you're restating my point here. if "cheating is cheating" then the cultural context around breaking the rules shouldn't matter. whether or not the fans loved the home runs, or if there was an implied approval of it, it's still cheating.
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Apr 11, 2023 16:14
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NCAA title strips & postseason bans happen when a school betrays the other NCAA institutional stakeholders by breaking the cardinal rule: compensating athlete labor. It’s not for cheating schemes, it’s to protect their racket. The MLB equivalent would be like if Manfred banned the Mets from postseason contention in response to Cohen’s $400M payroll. I’m sure Manfred and many owners would love to do exactly that, but they are legally bound by the CBA so they can’t. The NCAA by contrast operates in a wild legal space where they don’t have to pay their workers at all, and thus fiercely protects that.
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Apr 11, 2023 16:15
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It's not like the NCAA is a great example either, since yknow.....Penn State happened and nothing truly happened. NOT EQUATING THE ASTROS TO PENN STATE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD But there's definitely been a sense from me in the past decade that a lot of governing bodies in sports have zero interest in wiping their rear end when its actually needed.
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Apr 11, 2023 16:49
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bawfuls posted:Taking steroids during the 90’s and early 2000’s is an awful analogy for the Astros sign stealing scheme. This is why guys like Bonds and Clemens and Arod and Manny not being in the hall of fame while the astros get to keep their fraudulent title is even more upsetting.
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Apr 11, 2023 17:06
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One day you guys will just come to the realization that you don't really have a moral stand against cheating and that you generally don't particularly care about cheating in sports. You're mad because your team lost some baseball games 6 years ago and it made you sad. Otherwise you wouldn't be going through all of these "well actually all of the other cheating, including the cheating my team was doing at that time was fine." Y'all love the 2017 Astros so much too - you can't quit them. As always, just remember Jose Altuve never cheated and he is pure of heart and soul but has paid the price for the sins of others.
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Apr 11, 2023 17:46
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Sab0921 posted:One day you guys will just come to the realization that you don't really have a moral stand against cheating and that you generally don't particularly care about cheating in sports. You're mad because your team lost some baseball games 6 years ago and it made you sad. Otherwise you wouldn't be going through all of these "well actually all of the other cheating, including the cheating my team was doing at that time was fine." As a fan of a team not involved in either the 2017 world series or accused of cheating I'm actually feeling pretty good about calling your mindset dogshit garbage, actually.
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Apr 11, 2023 17:53
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Shinjobi posted:As a fan of a team not involved in either the 2017 world series or accused of cheating I'm actually feeling pretty good about calling your mindset dogshit garbage, actually. It's a troll post my dude. Ignore it.
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Apr 11, 2023 17:57
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Put Altuve specifically in a torture chamber until he's stretched to be above 6 feet
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Apr 11, 2023 18:15
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I feel like you all misread my comment (or I didn't make it clear enough, which fair point) - there were a ton of responses saying the punishment wasn't severe enough, which yes it wasn't. My point merely was they were targeted and made examples of. From all accounts the levels of cheating we saw with the Astros (And four other teams, allegedly) isn't happening anymore. I honestly think it sucks that the public were basically told "lol it's up to you to judge them because we aren't going to do enough" because it turns it into some dumb us vs. you mentality that is honestly toxic. It even took me a couple of years to get over that and as you can see, some people still haven't. It's frustrating that Astros fans had to take it on the chin because MLB didn't do nearly enough. I've said it before, but I still deal with that poo poo in the PNW while wearing Astros gear. And I probably always will.bawfuls posted:No, sorry this is again an attempt to flatten differences and rationalize what the Astros did. Flatten differences? Agree to disagree, you're just arguing different tiers of something that is still very much illegal. The Astros were the worst offenders, got "punished", and the other teams that were doing it (Including very likely your team, FYI) got told to knock that poo poo off or you're going to get thrown through the court of public opinion as well. Kirios fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 18:18
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Shinjobi posted:As a fan of a team not involved in either the 2017 world series or accused of cheating I'm actually feeling pretty good about calling your mindset dogshit garbage, actually. What's dogshit garbage? Everyone posting incredulous takes (still) about how the Astros should be shot into the sun, stripped of their title, all accolades and blackballed from the game, except all of those teams were electronically stealing signs. The only difference is man on base vs. no men on.
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Apr 11, 2023 18:22
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Sab0921 posted:What's dogshit garbage? Everyone posting incredulous takes (still) about how the Astros should be shot into the sun, stripped of their title, all accolades and blackballed from the game, except all of those teams were electronically stealing signs. The only difference is man on base vs. no men on. This is a wild take lol
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Apr 11, 2023 18:25
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MrMidnight posted:It's a troll post my dude. Ignore it. The low hanging fruit tends to slap me square in the face. My bad.
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Apr 11, 2023 18:44
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Kirios posted:I feel like you all misread my comment (or I didn't make it clear enough, which fair point) - there were a ton of responses saying the punishment wasn't severe enough, which yes it wasn't. My point merely was they were targeted and made examples of. If the punishment is perceived as light, then it is no example or warning to others. Selig made an example of Arod when he hit him with the longest steroid suspension in league history (for a first offense under the JDA no less) a suspension that many at the time saw as vindictive and somewhat overkill, for the explicit purpose of sending a strong message. That clearly did not happen with the Astros, who's punishment was widely seen as light, even by sane Astros fans like you. Kirios posted:Flatten differences? Agree to disagree, you're just arguing different tiers of something that is still very much illegal. The Astros were the worst offenders, got "punished", and the other teams that were doing it (Including very likely your team, FYI) got told to knock that poo poo off or you're going to get thrown through the court of public opinion as well. What the Astros did was fundamentally different from what we understand the rest to have been doing. Players have been attempting to decode and steal signs while standing on 2B for as long as signs have been a thing. Everyone agrees this is acceptable gamesmanship. Several teams, including the Dodgers, used the replay review room to do this decoding and then give that information to their players before they got on base. This removed one of the steps from the process (player doesn't have to think as hard to decode signs while standing on 2B) and is over the line. But it didn't change the basic dynamic of pitchers being weary of their signs with runners on 2B. What the Astros did was to turn this up to 11. They installed a camera at home for the explicit purpose of deciphering signs. Their front office wrote a program to automatically decode signs in real time. They then devised a system to signal the result to every batter, regardless of the runner-base state. This is not just a matter of degree. This isn't just "now the runner on 2B is much better at decoding your signs" this is "every batter has your signs on every pitch." When you attempt to paper over these distinctions, it really undermines your whole "I'm a reasonable Astros fan who understands why people are mad and doesn't attempt to apologize for the team" schtick. edit: you're making the same point as noted troll Sab, just with less defiant language. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 18:47
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^^^ You're making post hoc justifications for why your cheating was ok. The Dodgers installing cameras and using them to steal signs is fine because, as far as we know, they only relayed those signs when a runner was in scoring position. You do the same thing when it comes to spider tack where the Dodgers were the worst offenders and won a world series with their elevated spin rates. You dont actually care about cheating in baseball, it's any cheating beyond what my team does regularly is unconscionable and what the Dodgers do is just a long standing tradition of the game. Nodoze posted:This is a wild take lol That's literally the entirety of difference. They all had institutional sign stealing schemes with cameras in their stadiums. They all stole signs with those cameras. Astros got caught using a trash can and the other teams only got caught relaying electronically stolen signs with a man on base (except the Rockies, who used a massage gun). The entirety of the distinction is man on vs no men on. If you think there any real integrity of the game thing underpinning Bawfuls or McMagic's takes, I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona you may be interested in Sab0921 fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 19:04
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Sab0921 posted:The Dodgers installing cameras and using them to steal signs is fine because All public reporting I've seen says these teams used the existing replay infrastructure to go back and look at pitches already thrown to decipher signs, then relayed the sign convention to the dugout. edit: has anyone other than Sab read such claims anywhere? Where is this reporting about other teams installing cameras for sign stealing?
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Apr 11, 2023 19:28
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[quote="bawfuls" post=""531107904"] What the Astros did was to turn this up to 11. They installed a camera at home for the explicit purpose of deciphering signs. Their front office wrote a program to automatically decode signs in real time. edit: you're making the same point as noted troll Sab, just with less defiant language. [/quote] This is what the Dodgers did without the proof of real time conveyance of the signs. Dodger Stadium was functionally a Vegas casino. You love to lob personal insults at me when I've never done anything remotely similar - but I just wanted to spend some time here to lol at you thinking up comebacks in the shower 3 years after you saw some guy with Astros gear in the airport. HEY ASTROS FAN. THE JERKSTORE CALLED AND THEY RAN OUT OF YOU.
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Apr 11, 2023 19:29
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In Drellich's book and other places, it was said the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers used a different method which relied on an existing replay camera. The information would go from dugout to man on second and then to batter. The Astros system was a little more intricate than that with a separate special camera feed and the live relaying of information to the batter without someone being on base. That's my understanding of it.
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Apr 11, 2023 19:52
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Why would it be a good thing for MLB to come down hard on the Astros to "make an example" of them?
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Apr 11, 2023 19:53
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Why would it be a good thing for MLB to come down hard on the Astros to "make an example" of them? Because right now it's telegraphing that if you're a player, you can cheat to win the World Series and you won't be punished for it. It set a precedent where if it ever happens again, you can point to how the players on the 2017 Astros got zero punishment, so the same should be true for any future players that do the same thing.
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Apr 11, 2023 19:57
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Harlock posted:In Drellich's book and other places, it was said the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers used a different method which relied on an existing replay camera. The information would go from dugout to man on second and then to batter. Pretty much, although Gattis says they also developed methods of directly feeding the signs to the batter even in away games so it wasn't all their special camera at home. I really think the reason the players weren't punished was less to do with anything union related and more that MLB wanted to minimize the scandal as much as possible and if they tried to punish the players, they would have countered with evidence that everybody else was also cheating - albeit on a much less sophisticated level - and at all costs MLB wanted to avoid having to acknowledge the league at the time was dirty as poo poo. This is presumably also the rationale behind the commissioner's memo that was basically "from here on out we are going to absolutely crack the whip on sign stealing, knock that poo poo off".
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Apr 11, 2023 20:01
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so Sab is just making poo poo up to rationalize it to themselves and/or troll
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Apr 11, 2023 20:04
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Kevlar v2.0 posted:Because right now it's telegraphing that if you're a player, you can cheat to win the World Series and you won't be punished for it. It set a precedent where if it ever happens again, you can point to how the players on the 2017 Astros got zero punishment, so the same should be true for any future players that do the same thing. Usually singling people out for punishment to make an example of them is considered a bad thing op.
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Apr 11, 2023 20:05
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Sydin posted:Pretty much, although Gattis says they also developed methods of directly feeding the signs to the batter even in away games so it wasn't all their special camera at home. Yeah I agree that MLB wanted to avoid a poo poo storm that baseball was a dirty/unfair sport. Ratings/attendance may have taken a nosedive if multiple teams (all with very good records) were also brought forward and punished.
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Apr 11, 2023 20:07
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Usually singling people out for punishment to make an example of them is considered a bad thing op. So you're saying the Astro players who cheated to win the World Series should not be punished and therefore, no future player should ever be punished if they do the exact same thing?
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Apr 11, 2023 20:09
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I think the Astros should be disbanded because I don’t like them. Do the Yankees too while we’re at it.
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Apr 11, 2023 20:10
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bawfuls posted:At the risk of engaging with you directly, please show me any evidence that the Dodgers, or any team other than the Astros, installed cameras for the explicit purpose of stealing signs. Here is the link and the actual quote from a 2018 article about electronic sign stealing (before the can bang heard round the world) - what do you think these guys were looking at? https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/11/02/cameras-stealing-signs-pace-play-rob-manfred quote:Here’s how quickly things have changed, according to a Dodgers source. Three years ago, if you walked into the Dodgers’ video room behind their Dodger Stadium dugout you would likely have found Zack Greinke pouring over video of opposing hitters, looking for any edge he could find to match up his stuff against their weakness. This year, if you walked into the same room you would have found a small army of 20-something analysts in polo shirts and slacks pouring over video from the in-house cameras, like the security room at a Vegas casino. Most teams train their cameras on the catcher, the pitcher (from several angles), the third base coach and the dugout. You will once again rationalize this away as something else, I'm excited to see how.
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Apr 11, 2023 20:23
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Harlock posted:In Drellich's book and other places, it was said the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers used a different method which relied on an existing replay camera. The information would go from dugout to man on second and then to batter. Your understanding is wrong. The Astros can banging scheme wasn't using a camera the Astros installed, it was the center field TV feed.
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Apr 11, 2023 20:25
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