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everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013






here's the warnings we were given (in a discord comment because we don't have access to the original anymore). none of this talked about the sex dolls. a lot of the content wasnt discussed. whenever someone raised concerns we were told to " trust the staff and the writers."

this is a pretty lengthy list! you could usually assume it to be exhaustive. you usually don't expect there to be a racist Korean caricature with sex dolls and a fixation on "supreme leader" but hey I guess we were meant to expect that.

we were also told repeatedly that " Yeah some of the stuff hasn't aged well. we're going to be spending a few months going through and editing and rewriting things because of that."

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Meinberg
Oct 9, 2011

inspired by but legally distinct from CATS (2019)

Endorph posted:

Okay, so, when you asked to like, tweak your character's backstory, which contained this paragraph

Podima got mad at you and refused to let you change any of it.

Because that's pretty loving weird.

I did manage to save a screenshot of that convo, actually, when discussing the matter with some friends at the time. I feel bad for not having done more to push back at the concepts of the character at the time, to be honest, but there was a fair amount of peer pressure to comply.

Admin edit: removing the link because of privacy

littleorv
Jan 29, 2011

Some good reading here tonight :cheers:

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

everythingWasBees posted:

this is a pretty lengthy list! you could usually assume it to be exhaustive. you usually don't expect there to be a racist Korean caricature with sex dolls and a fixation on "supreme leader" but hey I guess we were meant to expect that.

What the gently caress

EorayMel
May 30, 2015

WE GET IT. YOU LOVE GUN JESUS. Toujours des fusils Bullpup Français.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
actually if he wrote a giant backstory about loving computers that might be why jeff made him an admin

The Lord of Hats posted:

Characters are prewritten, and there's a casting process--which does include trigger warnings about what people feel comfortable dealing with in the course of the game
Yes but going by the experiences cited in this thread it's sounding less like this process was 'lets work with you to make this more comfortable with you' or 'yeah this is gonna touch on that stuff so it might be a good idea to bail' and more like it was 'shut up and deal with it'

if you're going to bring that stuff up in a group roleplay, even if its handled perfectly and tastefully (which going by the writing sample this 100% does not meet), everyone needs to be on the same exact page. this is happening, we have all agreed to it happening, etc. it sounds like some players were okay with it, some were pressured into being okay with it, and some weren't aware it was even happening in the same game they were in until other people brought it up.

this sort of thing is a group experience. if you're pressuring or tricking people into putting up with things they don't want to deal with, then that's not a group experience, that's you tricking people into roleplaying out weird sex stuff.

if podima wanted to play this stuff then he could have just made sure everyone was going to be cool with it. personally i think 'spoilers' in a discord RP are a much smaller issue than telling someone 'btw weird sex poo poo was happening offscreen in that RP you were in, constantly, and you didnt know about it' or just handing someone a character sheet about how an autistic kid made perfect sex dolls (as an aside even ignoring the sex doll thing that sheet talks about autistic people like they're grotesque aliens lol)

Meinberg posted:

I did manage to save a screenshot of that convo, actually, when discussing the matter with some friends at the time. I feel bad for not having done more to push back at the concepts of the character at the time, to be honest, but there was a fair amount of peer pressure to comply.

Admin edit: removing link for privacy



okay this bit specifically, yeah, gently caress podima. you're expressing a clear concern (isnt making perfect robo (sex?) dolls of people without their consent kinda rape-y, i dont wanna play that) and podima is going 'obviously WE know thats bad... but wouldnt it be cool to play... its deep. we'll handle it super respectfully. i promise.'

Mr Luxury Yacht
Apr 16, 2012


I don't even know how the hell a Riven roleplay can exist let alone how someone thought to insert hosed up sex poo poo in there.

Like to be clear we're talking about "The Sequel to Myst" Riven right? Wandering around pre rendered backgrounds devoid of life solving dumb obtuse puzzles Riven?

16-bit Butt-Head
Dec 25, 2014
lol okay this is all fake right this cant be real *looks for hidden cameras* there cant possibly be an admin that ran a riven rape rp discord like this its all a prank lol you got me jeffrey you son of a bitch

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
for comparison's sake for any admins/staff who don't know how serious a problem this is in terms of roleplaying community and safety, when a game master did this kind of poo poo on a livestream rpg to one of his players without previous consent the whole game series was immediately cancelled and the game master in question became persona non grata across the entire industry: https://www.polygon.com/2020/4/6/21207309/rollplay-far-verona-sexual-assault-lets-play-season-2-canceled

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007
my, the internet really is full of things

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

I have never heard about any of this. When did this occur?

Jose Oquendo
Jun 20, 2004

Star Trek: The Motion Picture is a boring movie
Never heard of this Podima person. I don't really understand all this role playing stuff but everything I see here is setting off every alarm in my head. The person shouldn't have buttons and they should be yeeted into the sun (permaban)

MS Paint
Sep 21, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
brand new admin fresh from the box

contents may include rape or torture

The Lord of Hats
Aug 22, 2010

Hello, yes! Is being very good day for posting, no?

Endorph posted:

Okay, so, when you asked to like, tweak your character's backstory, which contained this paragraph

Podima got mad at you and refused to let you change any of it.

Because that's pretty loving weird.

That was the character Meinberg was assigned. As I understand it, did raise it as a question, talked through playing it with the mods--and yes, as shown, Pod talked about what he thought the authorial intent was--and ultimately decided that they were fine going ahead with it as written. And I believe that there was a further check-in, to which Meinberg expressed that they were still fine with it. This is not a case of "change was requested, Pod was mad"

After the game began, rather than bring up with the gamerunners that "Actually, no, I know I said I was fine with it but I've realized that I'm not", they proceeded to privately message other players about "Hey, my character is actually terrible, and this is the mods' secret fetish". I can't really speak to why Meinberg made this decision. An offshoot discord was formed, which included someone spectating the game taking screenshots of other players' private correspondence with the mods ('confessionals', private channels for communicating concerns with the mod and generally making notes or working on characterization, and which some players choose to have open to spectators), and sharing it. Understandably, this created a significant schism in the community, which did eventually split.

quote:

'btw weird sex poo poo was happening offscreen in that RP you were in, constantly, and you didnt know about it'

Hey, guess what, it wasn't. I get the sentiment, but hyperbole really isn't helpful. There's all of two incidents at play here. If people want to think differently of Pod than I do, that's their choice, but it should at least be on the facts as opposed to a game of telephone that he's some kind of serial non-con ERPer who likes to drag people in unwillingly.

That Little Demon
Dec 3, 2020
It is Very Cool that one of the... uh.. 7 people dictating what is/isn't funny on this forum and what is/isn't allowed to be posted and who is/isn't banned for saying a bad word, or who lose access to 99% of the forums for a joke, or whatever, out of the thousands of people who post on this site, is the ONE person running a rapist Riven: The Sequel to Myst roleplay featuring sex dolls of posters. Jeff, my hat is off to you! I see now why implementing flags in Imp Zone is so difficult when decisions like this take awhile to sort out.

Thank you!

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

The Lord of Hats posted:

That was the character Meinberg was assigned. As I understand it, did raise it as a question, talked through playing it with the mods--and yes, as shown, Pod talked about what he thought the authorial intent was--and ultimately decided that they were fine going ahead with it as written. And I believe that there was a further check-in, to which Meinberg expressed that they were still fine with it. This is not a case of "change was requested, Pod was mad"

After the game began, rather than bring up with the gamerunners that "Actually, no, I know I said I was fine with it but I've realized that I'm not", they proceeded to privately message other players about "Hey, my character is actually terrible, and this is the mods' secret fetish". I can't really speak to why Meinberg made this decision. An offshoot discord was formed, which included someone spectating the game taking screenshots of other players' private correspondence with the mods ('confessionals', private channels for communicating concerns with the mod and generally making notes or working on characterization, and which some players choose to have open to spectators), and sharing it. Understandably, this created a significant schism in the community, which did eventually split

the base reaction to Meinberg expressing their discomfort was already hosed.

Like the moment Meinberg expressed that discomfort the response being two people trying to coerce them into going along with it was never the right move. It should have been something all players were aware of going in and it should have been something the group as a whole discussed.


That Little Demon posted:

It is Very Cool that one of the... uh.. 7 people dictating what is/isn't funny on this forum and what is/isn't allowed to be posted and who is/isn't banned for saying a bad word, or who lose access to 99% of the forums for a joke, or whatever, out of the thousands of people who post on this site, is the ONE person running a rapist Riven: The Sequel to Myst roleplay featuring sex dolls of posters. Jeff, my hat is off to you! I see now why implementing flags in Imp Zone is so difficult when decisions like this take awhile to sort out.

Thank you!

to be clear i think the sex dolls were of poster's characters, not the posters themselves. you know, which is uhhh, extremely normal, actually.

Yinlock
Oct 22, 2008

Endorph posted:



okay this bit specifically, yeah, gently caress podima. you're expressing a clear concern (isnt making perfect robo (sex?) dolls of people without their consent kinda rape-y, i dont wanna play that) and podima is going 'obviously WE know thats bad... but wouldnt it be cool to play... its deep. we'll handle it super respectfully. i promise.'

yeah this is a pretty huge red flag

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

The Lord of Hats posted:

That was the character Meinberg was assigned. As I understand it, did raise it as a question, talked through playing it with the mods--and yes, as shown, Pod talked about what he thought the authorial intent was--and ultimately decided that they were fine going ahead with it as written. And I believe that there was a further check-in, to which Meinberg expressed that they were still fine with it. This is not a case of "change was requested, Pod was mad"

After the game began, rather than bring up with the gamerunners that "Actually, no, I know I said I was fine with it but I've realized that I'm not", they proceeded to privately message other players about "Hey, my character is actually terrible, and this is the mods' secret fetish". I can't really speak to why Meinberg made this decision. An offshoot discord was formed, which included someone spectating the game taking screenshots of other players' private correspondence with the mods ('confessionals', private channels for communicating concerns with the mod and generally making notes or working on characterization, and which some players choose to have open to spectators), and sharing it. Understandably, this created a significant schism in the community, which did eventually split.

Hey, guess what, it wasn't. I get the sentiment, but hyperbole really isn't helpful. There's all of two incidents at play here. If people want to think differently of Pod than I do, that's their choice, but it should at least be on the facts as opposed to a game of telephone that he's some kind of serial non-con ERPer who likes to drag people in unwillingly.

Maybe don't run the weird sex doll RPG in the first place if you don't want players to feel uncomfortable.

Arrhythmia
Jul 22, 2011

Endorph posted:

to be clear i think the sex dolls were of poster's characters, not the posters themselves. you know, which is uhhh, extremely normal, actually.

It's the game where you listen to animal sounds and try to figure out another culture's numbering system.

qnqnx
Nov 14, 2010


Once again it bears repeating: [in GTA2 announcer voice] CONSENT IS EVERYTHING

lobster shirt
Jun 14, 2021

ive never been a dm but i think if you have to caveat some aspect of your fun roleplaying game with "any game material that may be related to this will be handled with suitable framing and respect" then maybe you can just cut it altogether

Tweak
Jul 28, 2003

or dont whatever








16-bit Butt-Head posted:

lol okay this is all fake right this cant be real *looks for hidden cameras* there cant possibly be an admin that ran a riven rape rp discord like this its all a prank lol you got me jeffrey you son of a bitch

sagas thread reopening the same night seems like a trap

Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

wtf, loving Riven?

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008


Gravy Boat 2k
This fuckin sucks. I humbly request that Podima is not made an admin.


Just my two cents.

EorayMel
May 30, 2015

WE GET IT. YOU LOVE GUN JESUS. Toujours des fusils Bullpup Français.
Wait is this a(n erotic) RP based on a 1990's point and click adventure?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/63610/Riven_The_Sequel_to_MYST/

This?

Fluffdaddy
Jan 3, 2009


This normal for RP? A list of hosed up poo poo this long? I am being serious with this question.

Julias
Jun 24, 2012

Strum in a harmonizing quartet
I want to cause a revolution

What can I do? My savage
nature is beyond wild
Regardless if you think this means Podima should be banned or demodded, certainly everyone can agree that someone with this kind of history shouldn't be an admin right? Nobody is going to trust them at best, and at worst they'll actively take advantage of and hurt other posters. Get rid of them.

Skypie
Sep 28, 2008
:bighow:

Fajita Queen
Jun 21, 2012

Fluffdaddy posted:

This normal for RP? A list of hosed up poo poo this long? I am being serious with this question.

No.

It happens in some niche communities but generally speaking, not even close. And when it does, that should cover absolutely everything that could potentially be a problem, not leaving out stuff like whatever this apparently is.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

Fluffdaddy posted:

This normal for RP? A list of hosed up poo poo this long? I am being serious with this question.

yeah, but it's supposed to contain everything. it's not a problem that it's long, it's a problem that stuff was known to intentionally be left out.

e: for comparison's sake i'm running a tabletop rpg that's classic D&D "go into the dungeon and stab the goblins until treasure falls out" and it's still got four warnings about it at the front.

renessia
Mar 25, 2020

everybody's big sister


This was Pod's response to some folks expressing concern over how the sex-doll game was being handled.

Psycho Landlord
Oct 10, 2012

What are you gonna do, dance with me?

Fluffdaddy posted:

This normal for RP? A list of hosed up poo poo this long? I am being serious with this question.

Hi, guy who's DM'd various systems for nearly twenty years now here

No, no it is not. There is a point where you should take a step back and go "hey maybe this isn't a cool thing to subject people to." It appears the people involved in creating this game did not do that, and ignored players who expressed concerns about it.


qnqnx posted:

Once again it bears repeating: [in GTA2 announcer voice] CONSENT IS EVERYTHING

E:

renessia posted:



This was Pod's response to some folks expressing concern over how the sex-doll game was being handled.

This statement, in particular, is completely hosed.

everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013




so the game with the extended torture scene was the riven game. i can't speak to that directly because i didn't play in it.

the one with the autism sex dolls was meant to be a "sailor moon/utena" type game about what's essentially a highschool reunion.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Fluffdaddy posted:

This normal for RP? A list of hosed up poo poo this long? I am being serious with this question.
Some things will touch on darker themes so it's normal to warn for that, but it's generally not the norm, no. And personally the very... tumblr-y vibes is kinda off to me too. Like I did a dark fantasy game once but i just said 'yeah this'll be like witcher or something, heads up' not 'neurodiversity and sexual diversity.'

and the issue at play here is that this list doesnt actually mention sexual assault or torture but those were apparently in the game.

The Lord of Hats posted:


There's all of two incidents at play here. If people want to think differently of Pod than I do, that's their choice, but it should at least be on the facts as opposed to a game of telephone that he's some kind of serial non-con ERPer who likes to drag people in unwillingly.
look. were people playing in this game without initially being aware the game contained this kind of thing? that is, at the moment play started, were there any people in the game who did not know about the girlfriend robots, or whatever the second 'incident' is? if the second incident happened after play started, were there people in the game who did not give permission for it and were not aware it happened? this is a yes/no question.

Leraika
Jun 14, 2015

Luckily, I *did* save your old avatar. Fucked around and found out indeed.

Fluffdaddy posted:

This normal for RP? A list of hosed up poo poo this long? I am being serious with this question.

It's good practice to warn of content the rp or the system touches on (so that people can say 'no I'm not interested in playing the game about exploring horror from a feminist perspective that has lots of sexual assault and female powerlessness' for example). People don't usually warn for things like sexual diversity, neurodiversity, or romance tho.

e: the problem here is that 'neurodiversity' seems to have come up because it actually means 'we've made a lovely stereotypical ASD villian' and the reason they're warning for romance that doesn't work is because sex dolls... but they're not actually mentioning the things that people would reasonably take actual umbrage to, and also telling the player of the problematic character that it's okay, the character doesn't know it's wrong, which a) see the neurodiversity thing and b) no

Leraika fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Mar 19, 2023

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Fluffdaddy posted:

This normal for RP? A list of hosed up poo poo this long? I am being serious with this question.

It's not a usual thing no. Sometimes people run that sort of thing but if an RP is going to involve some heavy/hosed up poo poo you clear it up front with every player with a fair amount of specificity and without trying to pressure them into anything they're uncomfortable with. It's ultimately collaborative fiction and all the authors need to be on the same page with their comfort zones.


Yeeeeah this is earnestly pretty weird and controlling. I'd consider this a very serious red flag if a gm or player acted like this.

fool of sound fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Mar 19, 2023

Yinlock
Oct 22, 2008

renessia posted:



This was Pod's response to some folks expressing concern over how the sex-doll game was being handled.

i know you've all expressed concerns about my insistence that you explore the mind of a man who really wants to gently caress clocks, but have you thought about the real victim here: me

Plebian Parasite
Oct 12, 2012

Feel like a lovecraft protagonist trying desperately to uncover what the gently caress is going on here despite the fact that knowledge of it will surely drive me insane.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

everythingWasBees posted:

so the game with the extended torture scene was the riven game. i can't speak to that directly because i didn't play in it.

the one with the autism sex dolls was meant to be a "sailor moon/utena" type game about what's essentially a highschool reunion.

what in the goddamn

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16-bit Butt-Head
Dec 25, 2014
check out my erotic rp based on the point and click adventure game titantic: adventure out of time. this roleplay contains scenes of explicit violence and gore enter at your own peril gamer

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