Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

psydude posted:

It was a building adjacent to the consulate that was owned by Iran, so it was probably accommodations for the IRCG officers.

What is your source on that?

All the major mainstream reporting is stating that it was a consular building, next to the embassy. Not a non-consular building, next to the consulate.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/01/middleeast/syria-iranian-consulate-attack-middle-east-intl/index.html

quote:

Syria and Iran blamed Israel for the airstrike that destroyed a consular building, killing Mohammed Reza Zahedi, a top commander in Iranís elite Revolutionary Guards (IRGC), and several other officials, including another senior commander Mohammad Hadi Haji Rahimi. Israeli officials have not commented on the incident.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/02/politics/syria-iran-consulate-strike-us/index.html

quote:

The United States told Iran it was not involved and had no advance knowledge of Mondayís strike on an Iranian consulate in Damascus, Syria, a US official said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/2/attack-on-iran-consulate-in-damascus-what-do-we-know

quote:

What happened?
The consulate, which is next to the main embassy building in Damascusís Mezzeh district, was struck at about 5pm (14:00 GMT) on Monday.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
In checking my history, it looks like it was the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/01/syria-iran-embassy-strike-israel/

But they do mention further down in the article that it was acting as the consulate, which I guess I missed. They also appear to have updated the title to specify it was the consulate (in my history it just alludes to a strike in Damascus).

I don't know why you'd have a consulate right next to an embassy, though.

psydude fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Apr 2, 2024

Dopilsya
Apr 3, 2010

mlmp08 posted:

I could have been more precise with "generally," but the mission is protected. No, it doesn't mean that once you give up land for an embassy to the sending, they can just hot-swap it for a SAM site or something and go "nuh uh, it's my land now," but striking an embassy or consulate is decidedly different from striking military officials on land that is not associated with a diplomatic mission.

Not just generally, embassy and consulate land is still the sovereign territory of the receiving state, in this case Syria. It's not Iranian territory, it has special protections under the Vienna convention and protection of diplomats convention, but that doesn't change whose territory it is. And like I said--

Dopilsya posted:

...The premises itself are still supposed to be inviolable, though.
P

M_Gargantua posted:

Thats a lot of hairs to split to claim its ok.

Its not ok though.

Did I say it was "ok"? No and don't put words in my mouth. I said consulates aren't sovereign territory of the sending countries, which is correcting a common misconception and that the people reported killed are unlikely to benefit from the specific protections afforded consular staff. I also said the premises of the consulate itself are inviolable, referencing the special protection that the consulate itself receives.

I am pointing out what particular legal status I would see as applying in this particular attack. I felt that might be useful, since both my post and the post I was responding to implicated what legal protections is afforded. As it so happens, I don't believe that an attack that merely violates one portion of the protection of diplomats convention (of which Israel is a state signatory) and not other portions is "ok".

Stringent
Dec 22, 2004


image text goes here
What's the legality of Israel dropping bombs in the middle of Damascus?

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



psydude posted:

I don't know why you'd have a consulate right next to an embassy, though.

The consulate is where a consul works; the consul works for the ambassador and is tasked with the bureaucratic details of the relationship between the countries. Stuff like issuing visas. It's common for an embassy to also have a consular space but there are plenty of examples of them being separated. DC hosts a number of missions where the consulate is in a building blocks away from the embassy.

Edited to fix typos.

Midjack fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Apr 2, 2024

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Stringent posted:

What's the legality of Israel dropping bombs in the middle of Damascus?

Obvious act of war, but the realities of international politics are that that doesn't matter because what's Syria going to do about it?

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Midjack posted:

The consulate is where a consul works; the consul works for three ambassador and is tasked with the bureaucratic details of the relationship between the countries. Stuff like issuing visas. It's common for an embassy to also have a consular space but there are plenty of examples of them being separated. DC hosts a number of missions where there consulate is in a building blocks away from the embassy.

Didn't know this, thanks.

Stringent
Dec 22, 2004


image text goes here

PittTheElder posted:

Obvious act of war, but the realities of international politics are that that doesn't matter because what's Syria going to do about it?

Sounds like carte blanche for Iran to put warheads on foreheads in Tel-Aviv, if they're so inclined.

Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

Stringent posted:

Sounds like carte blanche for Iran to put warheads on foreheads in Tel-Aviv, if they're so inclined.

yeah man totally

Dopilsya
Apr 3, 2010

Stringent posted:

What's the legality of Israel dropping bombs in the middle of Damascus?


PittTheElder posted:

Obvious act of war, but the realities of international politics are that that doesn't matter because what's Syria going to do about it?


Stringent posted:

Sounds like carte blanche for Iran to put warheads on foreheads in Tel-Aviv, if they're so inclined.

I think the answer is that it is indeed an act of war in addition to being a violation of treaties that Israel has signed, against both Syria and Iran. Legally they are justified in responding appropriately (by which I mean within the laws of war) as they have the right of self defense.

This particular attack isn't "cart blanche", there's still limits on use of force that exists. I think you could make a good argument that the attacks on Iranians (scientists and the like) predating the current attack opens up what would be a justified response on the part of the Iranian govt though.

A Meatslab
Apr 15, 2010
Trying to get a better understanding of Middle East power dynamics:

Is part of the reason why the U.S. is so sticky in its aid to Israel that Israel is the only nation open to providing a [relatively] reliable major diplomatic/logistical corridor to the region for the U.S.?

Gaming things out, what could potentially happen if the U.S. were to, in a hypothetical timeline, drastically reduce its aid to or pull back its support for Israel? (And for this idea, let's put aside the potential domestic electoral repercussions from pro-Israel constituencies.)

  • Would Israel suddenly find itself a pariah state, or would it potentially still have support from elsewhere, like the UK? Would another state actor like China be likely to fill in the void that the U.S. leaves behind?
  • Would this drastically reduce the U.S. ability to influence the Middle East? Is there a scenario where the U.S. would move to establish closer relations with other major state actors like Egypt. Saudi Arabia, or the U.A.E?
  • Are there agreements in place with Israel that place consequences on the U.S. if they renege on said agreements? Would reneging potentially affect the standing of U.S.-backed security agreements elsewhere in the world?
  • Is U.S. support the only thing preventing another ground invasion of Israel from other countries like Syria? Are modern-day Israeli relations with places like Jordan and Egypt established enough that there is less potential danger to Israel than what the current Israeli government states?

Of course, all of this is just food for thought, and I'm sure the way things play out in a hypothetical wouldn't actually play out that way IRL, etc., etc.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003
SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

mlmp08 posted:

I could have been more precise with "generally," but the mission is protected. No, it doesn't mean that once you give up land for an embassy to the sending, they can just hot-swap it for a SAM site or something and go "nuh uh, it's my land now," but striking an embassy or consulate is decidedly different from striking military officials on land that is not associated with a diplomatic mission.

M_Gargantua posted:

Thats a lot of hairs to split to claim its ok.

Its not ok though.


Yeah there's exactly zero ambiguity wrt the norms surrounding whether or not you can just blow up consulates.

Dopilsya posted:

I think the answer is that it is indeed an act of war in addition to being a violation of treaties that Israel has signed, against both Syria and Iran. Legally they are justified in responding appropriately (by which I mean within the laws of war) as they have the right of self defense.

This particular attack isn't "cart blanche", there's still limits on use of force that exists. I think you could make a good argument that the attacks on Iranians (scientists and the like) predating the current attack opens up what would be a justified response on the part of the Iranian govt though.

Current attack is certainly remarkable as a significant escalation, a significant violation of norms (how much that matters is very hard to quantify tho), and probably most importantly: Iran will absolutely retaliate for it, likely both in the short and long term.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 2, 2024

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon

Stringent posted:

What's the legality of Israel dropping bombs in the middle of Damascus?

Well, law is something a sovereign state enforces upon its subjects. When it comes to country vs country legality is only relevant in so far as its a mutual allowance. This is a case of Sword Law, ergo, not affected by legality.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon

Dopilsya posted:

there's still limits on use of force that exists.

Not a dig against you personally, but this statement is Liberal Worldview Misconception 101

Instead; There are still potential consequences on the use of force which may be exercised.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

A Meatslab posted:

[*]Is U.S. support the only thing preventing another ground invasion of Israel from other countries like Syria? Are modern-day Israeli relations with places like Jordan and Egypt established enough that there is less potential danger to Israel than what the current Israeli government states?
[/list]


I don't have time to do them all so I'll start here:

No. There has been significant rapprochement between Israel and the Arab states especially since the Trump led Abraham Accords. It was widely assumed Saudi Arabia would sign a place treaty in the near future. Plenty of people think this motivated Hamas to go for a big attack-- their former allies were all siding with Israel.

Syria is part of the Iranian alliance. They're more overtly hostile but generally can't afford a straight war. Syria is only just starting to recover from its brutal war; Israel conducts airstrikes there all the time. If it were to invade Israel it would lose, quickly.

A Meatslab
Apr 15, 2010

Count Roland posted:

I don't have time to do them all so I'll start here:

No. There has been significant rapprochement between Israel and the Arab states especially since the Trump led Abraham Accords. It was widely assumed Saudi Arabia would sign a place treaty in the near future. Plenty of people think this motivated Hamas to go for a big attack-- their former allies were all siding with Israel.

Syria is part of the Iranian alliance. They're more overtly hostile but generally can't afford a straight war. Syria is only just starting to recover from its brutal war; Israel conducts airstrikes there all the time. If it were to invade Israel it would lose, quickly.

Got it! I had a sneaking suspicion that Likud, like a lot of far-right parties, is overblowing how much actual danger from invasion Israel is in.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


A Meatslab posted:

Trying to get a better understanding of Middle East power dynamics:

Is part of the reason why the U.S. is so sticky in its aid to Israel that Israel is the only nation open to providing a [relatively] reliable major diplomatic/logistical corridor to the region for the U.S.?

If you're asking (just in the quoted part above) if Israel is useful as a place to stage military assets, it isn't even particularly/uniquely useful as that. Israel is surrounded by fairly dense and capable air defense networks, so it's not a great idea to fly any stealth aircraft outta there without radar reflectors fitted or at least payload doors open. The regions we've mostly been operating out of for the Global War on Terrain for two decades(before Joe largely declared it Jover) have been better suited for the GWOT's mission for good reasons. It's nice to have a foothold there but Israel isn't supported by the USA BECAUSE it's a regional foothold.

I don't think it's helpful to "ignore the electoral consequences" etc of cutting US aid to Israel because the whole matter is inseparable from the reasons we actually provide it. I don't know if I can say the reasons for that part without getting probed.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


A Meatslab posted:

Got it! I had a sneaking suspicion that Likud, like a lot of far-right parties, is overblowing how much actual danger from invasion Israel is in.

Yeah, that's one of the larger tragedies of the situation from my perspective: lasting, durable security for the chunk of the ethnically-Jewish diaspora living in the state of Israel can be bought for a fairly low price: creation of a genuinely multi-ethnic Israeli state with no second-rate citizenship and no apartheid. That's very unlikely to happen with how far to the right even moderate Israeli political institutions and voters have ratcheted on the matter of one state solutions, which I feel very saddened about.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
As far as I understand it, when Turkey cooperates, it's a much more valuable military/logistical asset in any operations against Middle East targets the US cares about to operate against.

You can easily strike against Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia from Israel, which is of no value to the US at all. And the comparatively tiny borders with Lebanon and Syria are also not that useful, as there's little appetite in the USA to strike against those states, especially now that ISIS has mostly been crushed. Basing rights in Jordan or Iraq itself are a lot more valuable.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
US military and diplomatic support for Israel is largely due to US domestic politics and has very little to do with their value as a military or diplomatic partner in the region.

LtCol J. Krusinski
May 7, 2013
Gonna reiterate that offing an IRGC-QF commander regardless of collateral damage is a good thing.

Thereís not really a thing called innocent Iranian government workers in Syria as far as Iím concerned. :shrug:

My Spirit Otter
Jun 15, 2006


CANADA DOESN'T GET PENS LIKE THIS

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made American Products. Bitch.

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Gonna reiterate that offing an IRGC-QF commander regardless of collateral damage is a good thing.

:chloe:

A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

The Suffering of the Succotash.

PittTheElder posted:

Obvious act of war, but the realities of international politics are that that doesn't matter because what's Syria going to do about it?

Let's not forget that Syria and Iran are already basically at war with Israel, and have been for some time. Most of the West just pretends otherwise that because it's convenient to do so.

It's not a total war, but it's hotter than a cold war.

A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Apr 3, 2024

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨


Just nuke Ďem in a childrenís hospital.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





A.o.D. posted:

Let's not forget that Syria and Iran are already basically at war with Israel, and have been for some time. Most of the West just pretends tomorrow that because it's convenient to do so.

It's not a total war, but it's hotter than a cold war.

Is that a brushfire war?

My Spirit Otter
Jun 15, 2006


CANADA DOESN'T GET PENS LIKE THIS

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made American Products. Bitch.

Subjunctive posted:

Just nuke ‘em in a children’s hospital.

make sure you napalm it first because that one guy really deserves it!!

Madurai
Jun 26, 2012

psydude posted:

US military and diplomatic support for Israel is largely due to US domestic politics and has very little to do with their value as a military or diplomatic partner in the region.

I'm convinced it's mostly inertia. Starting out as a Western-aligned island in a sea of Soviet arms clients, and now it's because generations of US policy makers grew up with the association as a given. The crazy Evangelical connection came well after the US had already committed.

LtCol J. Krusinski
May 7, 2013
Oh no, wonít someone think of the poor IRGC general and his compatriots.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Oh no, wonít someone think of the poor IRGC general and his compatriots.

Consulates - fair game if there's someone you don't like inside.
Embassies hate this one weird trick.

Not defending Iran here, but if violating sovereign space is now the norm because 'there was a baddy inside' we've set an awful, terrible precedent. And given that Israel is bombing hospitals, refugees, and aid workers, maybe now isn't the time to defend them.

My Spirit Otter
Jun 15, 2006


CANADA DOESN'T GET PENS LIKE THIS

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made American Products. Bitch.

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Oh no, won’t someone think of the poor IRGC general and his compatriots.

ok, so all the people who worked in that buildong deserved to die because they worked in close proximity to an ircg general?

ok bud, the local syrian employees who are definitely doing whatever they can to survive this decade+ civil war deserved to get iced.

israel knows how to take out targets with mininal impact, they have most of the tools of the us military has available to them and can definitely produce quality knock-offs of the ones they dont. they chose not to. israel is realizing they are losing international support because of the whole palestinian genocide thing, so theyre swinging their big dick around locally while they still can, to try to maintain their "you cant touch me" status

My Spirit Otter fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Apr 3, 2024

Bored As Fuck
Jan 1, 2006
Be prepared
Fun Shoe
It can be cool and good that an IRCG fuckstick is dead, AND that it was a dumb move bombing a consular building. They should've bombed his vehicle or something.

Muscle Tracer
Feb 23, 2007

Medals only weigh one down.

e: never mind

My Spirit Otter
Jun 15, 2006


CANADA DOESN'T GET PENS LIKE THIS

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made American Products. Bitch.

Bored As gently caress posted:

It can be cool and good that an IRCG fuckstick is dead, AND that it was a dumb move bombing a consular building. They should've bombed his vehicle or something.

its not being debated that it was a good thing an iranian general got whacked, what is being contested is that its cool and good no matter the collateral damage, which is a pscyhotic and bloodthirsty statement

Vahakyla
May 3, 2013
The World Central Kitchen attack had three brits who died. One SBS member and two royal marines, evidently as security.

They were also responsible for literally coordinating with the IDF about their vehicle movements.

It was no accident.

*attacked 3 times in well-labelled vehicles, each time a mile apart as they dragged their injured colleagues from each vehicle as they were bombed one by one. Murdered, deliberately, and targeted three times. Not just 'killed'.

Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Apr 3, 2024

Kesper North
Nov 3, 2011

EMERGENCY POWER TO PARTY
Yeah, I saw a picture of the vehicle, and the munition hit smack dab in the middle of the symbol on the roof that indicates it's an aid worker vehicle.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




Yeah, couldn't be a more square hit on the passenger side seat if you tried. Nearly perfectly round hole from a vertical impact dead center over the passenger seat, exactly lined up with the b-pillar.

Then twice more in 2.5km, spread out over ~5 minutes because the remaining vehicles would stop, grab the wounded, then move on and get hit again down the road.

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
Another round of blatant war crimes to advance a slow-motion genocide; another round of emails to my representatives demanding action to restrain Israel that will vanish into the void :sigh:

Quackles
Aug 11, 2018

Pixels of Light.


I'm told that phone calls to a representative's office will generally be more notable for them and so have more of an impact.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Even if this wonít go through until 2029, itís still remarkably lovely that the US is considering selling $18 billion worth of F-15s to Israel, as if they could ever be outgunned by any of their neighbors.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/us/politics/biden-israel-weapons-deal.html

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


Cugel the Clever posted:

Another round of blatant war crimes to advance a slow-motion genocide; another round of emails to my representatives demanding action to restrain Israel that will vanish into the void :sigh:

Maybe they'll answer if you bait and switch about, idk, TikTok drip-feeding your child brain-heroin.

pantslesswithwolves posted:

Even if this won’t go through until 2029, it’s still remarkably lovely that the US is considering selling $18 billion worth of F-15s to Israel, as if they could ever be outgunned by any of their neighbors.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/us/politics/biden-israel-weapons-deal.html

I'm surprised we're exporting any given just how many we critically need to replace F22s just for basic domestic sovereign airspace control.

Those will likely be the Israeli E-ish variant, yeah? The paywall kicked in before I could get much farther than the fourth paragraph.

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Apr 3, 2024

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply