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PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Alchenar posted:

Hmm, I don't buy the specific line of argument in bold. The laws of war apply to all parties equally all the time. That means that one sides perfidy does not excuse another's - although one of the reasons for the prohibition is the corrosive effect that initial employment encourages reciprocal measures.

Legally, maybe, but a rebel movement against an occupying power that doesn't make use of "illegal" means to stay hidden among the local populace, etc. is a rebel movement that isn't going to exist for long. Especially in an area as relatively small as Gaza where, really, there aren't any places they COULD set up camp that aren't practically right next to people or so obvious they'll be bombed within the hour. While it would be great if every movement trying to fight for its freedom to not be genocided wore clearly marked uniforms to make them lawful combatants and made sure their weapons were always visible, in my mind it's a fact that to some extent you need the upper hand(or at least a relatively peer/near-peer conflict) to have the luxury of acting purely within the laws of war.

It obviously doesn't apply to every rule, it's not all of them that yield some sort of advantage to break(and some of them are deeply self-destructive in most conflicts at least in the longer term if you break them), but in my opinion there are some of them that no underdog freedom fighter/rebellion could ever follow without immediately getting vaporized.

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PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
https://thecradle.co/articles-id/25347

quote:

Troops hid inside aid truck for deadly US-Israel operation in Nuseirat

The Palestinian resistance called the operation a 'complex war crime' and reported that the Israeli army killed a number of their remaining captives during a massacre that left over 200 dead

I'm not familiar with "The Cradle" so I'm not sure how reliable they generally are, but this seems decently sourced.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

PurpleXVI posted:

https://thecradle.co/articles-id/25347

I'm not familiar with "The Cradle" so I'm not sure how reliable they generally are, but this seems decently sourced.

Well, considering this is one of their investigative reports...

https://thecradle.co/articles/abu-musab-al-zarqawi-notorious-terrorist-or-american-agent

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/06/rescue-operation-made-possible-by-special-decoy-truck/

Other details. The furniture truck bit is worked so it's probably re-reporting of the above, but the extra detail of the Op going after two locations simultaneously and one of the vehicles being damaged and needing rescuing puts a bit of colour on what actually happened.

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
Has there been an official, public recounting of how 7 Oct was incompetently enabled yet? It pisses me off that even pro-Israel liberals will cast Israel's actions in Gaza as "existential" for Israel, when they could literally just walk back to the border and never be at risk of the same level of attack if they simply monitored it properly.

Whether it's a simple, automatic "hey, our monitoring systems are suddenly down, max alert until resolved" or even just some dumb grunt sitting at a desk watching feeds from the border, ready to press a comical, red "ALERT!!" button, there's zero reason the entire border guard should be caught literally in their underwear again.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

It's not an official public accounting but fwiw 972, which has good connections within Israel's security and intelligence community, did a bunch of good and quite damning reporting on that topic (including several lengthy pieces from whistleblowers who'd essentially been shouting at anyone who would listen that Hamas was very obviously preparing something major) that is very much worth reading.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
https://x.com/HamzaMSyed/status/1800876572083445984

UN report has concluded that the Israeli military is consciously employing sexual violence against Palestinian civilians as established procedures.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!



Cythereal posted:

https://x.com/HamzaMSyed/status/1800876572083445984

UN report has concluded that the Israeli military is consciously employing sexual violence against Palestinian civilians as established procedures.

Reading the tweet, the sexual violence as apparent policy is forcing arab men and boys to be naked in public and taking photos. Sounds a lot like your average cop's interpretation of strip searching a black man don't it

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang
There's also that thing where in the camps they're sending all the Gazan males they don't outright kill, they are sitting them on a chair with a metal rod that goes up their arse and delivers electricity. Not sure if that's in that report, it only made the news a few days ago.

War Boi
Nov 1, 2021
After I first read about the electric dildo chair, I sincerely crack pinged.

I then did what all high functioning morons do and promptly brain wiped that poo poo so that I could go about my day.

Ring a ding ding, crack and ping again, baby. :stare:

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.


the pictures thread in d&d has a subtitle of "omg they wrote down the racism policy"

i cannot loving believe it has been topped by "omg they wrote down the sexual assault policy"

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


PurpleXVI posted:

For instance, freeing the hostages? Just stop the war crimes and release your political prisoners. Boom. You've got them back.

The same goes for the security guarantee that the Israeli State could buy for itself and its people right now: stop being a racial apartheid and enjoy the resultant durable peace. Peace is right there on the shelf, available for the stunningly low price of not continuing Holocaust 2.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


Cythereal posted:

https://x.com/HamzaMSyed/status/1800876572083445984

UN report has concluded that the Israeli military is consciously employing sexual violence against Palestinian civilians as established procedures.

Call your senators. I dunno man. Just don't stop calling.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012


Lipstick Apathy

Cugel the Clever posted:

Has there been an official, public recounting of how 7 Oct was incompetently enabled yet? It pisses me off that even pro-Israel liberals will cast Israel's actions in Gaza as "existential" for Israel, when they could literally just walk back to the border and never be at risk of the same level of attack if they simply monitored it properly.

Whether it's a simple, automatic "hey, our monitoring systems are suddenly down, max alert until resolved" or even just some dumb grunt sitting at a desk watching feeds from the border, ready to press a comical, red "ALERT!!" button, there's zero reason the entire border guard should be caught literally in their underwear again.
Israel's problem is they got so addicted to technology that they forgot to actually put a bunch of grunts on the ground to swing into action when everything falls apart from an extremely competent multi-front assault across the border on all sensors. Once the sensors got knocked out, there were no grunts, no simple soldiers, and no battalions. They thought technology would solve all problems because they had success in intercepting rockets and hacking Iran's nuclear centrifuges. They are extremely competent at some of that but they didn't notice a giant hole right in the middle of it all.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012


Lipstick Apathy
Some of you guys were in the infantry! You were the guys who were supposed to fight the battle when the enemy surprises you. You have tanks but when was the last time the U.S. Army fought a tank war? Thirty years ago in the Persian Gulf War. But those insurgents didn't attack you with tanks but with IEDs in those soft Humvees.

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

Israel's problem is they got so addicted to technology that they forgot to actually put a bunch of grunts on the ground to swing into action when everything falls apart from an extremely competent multi-front assault across the border on all sensors. Once the sensors got knocked out, there were no grunts, no simple soldiers, and no battalions. They thought technology would solve all problems because they had success in intercepting rockets and hacking Iran's nuclear centrifuges. They are extremely competent at some of that but they didn't notice a giant hole right in the middle of it all.
All the dead and captured IDF soldiers in border outposts would disagree that they weren't there on the ground. They just weren't competent.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012


Lipstick Apathy

Cugel the Clever posted:

All the dead and captured IDF soldiers in border outposts would disagree that they weren't there on the ground. They just weren't competent.
Well I think in the near-term future the IDF is going to have a lot more troops along the border.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

Cugel the Clever posted:

All the dead and captured IDF soldiers in border outposts would disagree that they weren't there on the ground. They just weren't competent.

There also weren't enough of them for the scale of the attack. Also intelligence, support, most of the IDF being stationed in the north etc. I imagine lots of different problems contributed to Israel's awful spring on Oct 7.

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006
READING COMPREHENSION IS HARD

Cythereal posted:

https://x.com/HamzaMSyed/status/1800876572083445984

UN report has concluded that the Israeli military is consciously employing sexual violence against Palestinian civilians as established procedures.

every zionist accusation is a confession part 92487568

Proud Christian Mom fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jun 18, 2024

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
I believe the title was, "Hamas Determined to Attack Inside Israel."
https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-806634#google_vignette

quote:

The IDF had precise information about Hamas's intentions, but due to prevailing conceptions in the security establishment and possible negligence by officials, the warning signs were not acted on.
A newly surfaced document has revealed that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and intelligence systems had detailed knowledge of Hamas's plan to raid Israel and kidnap 250 people weeks before the October 7 massacre.

The document, which was compiled in the Gaza Division, outlined Hamas's intentions and was known to top intelligence officials, according to a report by Kan News.

The document, titled "Detailed End-to-End Raid Training," was distributed on September 19, 2023, and described in detail the series of exercises conducted by Hamas's elite units.

These exercises included raiding military posts and kibbutzim (collective communities in Israel), kidnapping soldiers and civilians, and maintaining the hostages once they were in the Gaza Strip.

Nick Soapdish
Apr 27, 2008


https://x.com/kylieatwood/status/1803832838308905300?t=Eut3SZMHSE3NMKz91nMzNw&s=19

To be as delusional as the Israelis. Does leadership not remember 2006, I am sure LH and other militia groups have been doing nothing since then

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Did Israel specifically say blitzkrieg? That's.... certainly a choice of words

madeintaipei
Jul 13, 2012

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Did Israel specifically say blitzkrieg? That's.... certainly a choice of words

Reading the article, blitzkrieg is in parentheses. As a word to encompass a strategy of maneuver to envelop and vanquish an enemy, it works well enough for media consumption. As a description of what the IDF is able to do with what the rest of the article implies? How much more blitz and/or krieg do they have left? If the article is to be believed, the US and Israel think that Hezbollah has stockpiled a huge number of precision guided munitions to the point that any greater escalation of war in the region would hazard overwhelming IDF missile defenses.

Which, sure. But these motherfuckers, 1. Haven't been able to apply that strategy to as small of a place as the Gaza Strip, and 2. Haven't caused enough damage, death, and misery thereby to get Hezbollah to attack effectively within Israel's borders.

The thrust of the article is that Iron Dome could be overwhelmed if Hezbollah gets serious and starts really firing poo poo off. That... hasn't happened. Who starts that ball rolling? Hezbollah reacts to what has already happened, Israel pays, then flattens hundred of square miles of homes when Hezbollah can't retaliate to that because they blew their wad? Israel acts, Hezbollah pays, Israel flattens hundreds of square miles of homes, then Hezbollah retaliates, gets more poo poo flattened, and runs out of ammo. Maybe, maybe not, to all of that.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/20/israeli-military-spokesmans-hamas-defeat-remarks-widen-rift-with-netanyahu

quote:

Israeli military spokesman’s Hamas defeat remarks widen rift with Netanyahu

Daniel Hagari goes against Netanyahu by saying that identifying the impossible task of defeating Hamas as Israel’s end goal in Gaza means ‘throwing sand in people’s eyes’.

...

“This business of destroying Hamas, making Hamas disappear – it’s simply throwing sand in the eyes of the public,” he said. “Hamas is an idea, Hamas is a party. It’s rooted in the hearts of the people – whoever thinks we can eliminate Hamas is wrong.”

Reporting from Amman, Jordan, Al Jazeera’s Hamdah Salhut said Netanyahu’s office was “fuming” at Hagari’s remarks.

Always a sign of a sane and stable state when the military and civilian leaderships are yelling at each other and loudly disagreeing in public.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

hezbullah actually has a lot of missiles and indeed has been building their stocks for literally decades. hell they traded their involvement in syria for missiles and the recurring Israeli strikes you have likely heard about in Syria over the last decade have primarily been of missile shipments headed to lebanon.

Israel's military planning is really deeply steeped in an incredible level of over-estimation of their own abilities and a profound underestimation of their opponents and indeed that's one of the defining, recurring themes of every Israeli military adventure. Everything that can't be solved with airpower they turn into a huge clusterfuck.

as an aside, this is some interesting reading and it's just scathing. hard to read that and not wonder if anything at all has changed

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/combat-studies-institute/csi-books/we-were-caught-unprepared.pdf

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pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Israel vs. Hezbollah would make Israel vs. Hamas look like two guys yelling at each other over a parking space by comparison.

Hezbollah has been rearming since 2006 and eclipsed its stockpiles of rockets and missiles held at the beginning of the last war within a few years of its end. It sent fighters into Syria in 2013, and I’d bet a lot of the guys who fought there and came back are now at least in mid-level tactical leadership positions.

They’ve had the benefit of watching how the IDF fought in Gaza over several rounds before this one, and have probably been fed intel and data by Iran as well.

Hezbollah isn’t an existential threat to Israel. This would be another dumb war of choice launched by Israel, but one that would likely see a lot of damage to northern Israel, including Haifa, and likely Hezbollah taking and probably holding territory for at least a few days-a propaganda coup way bigger than surprising the IDF on October 7.

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