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IK mode engaged:Cugel the Clever posted:But this all veers wildly from the topic at hand, which is that Israel is committing atrocities in Gaza and appears on the verge of taking things up a few notches.
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Oct 14, 2023 17:25
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The deliberate complete destruction of entire lands and peoples as the primary goal was not a common feature of historical warfare. Yes it happened, but it was not normal. What we are seeing in Gaza isn't collateral damage, it's not a disregard for hitting civilians to get to the enemy. The deliberate eradication of the civilian population and their culture is the goal. This isn't the Sack of Badajoz, it is the fall of Carthage. Edit: didnt' see the message, dropping it.
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Oct 14, 2023 17:28
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mlmp08 posted:I'm just never going to agree with you. Purposefully targeting and killing civilians is morally different from making a good faith effort at the individual level not to kill civilians and failing due to scale of war.
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Oct 14, 2023 17:40
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Apologies for being the derailleur. Love you guys, I'm just just tired and have too much first hand experience with some of this poo poo.
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Oct 14, 2023 19:18
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mlmp08 posted:Language like the below doesn't indict militaries effectively or reduce harm. It is the kind of argument that murderers use to justify their actions. "We all do this, it's normal, this is just how it is, oh well. If you didn't want to murder civilians, you shouldn't have joined or been drafted." You are correct that it is a dogshit message and it is why military messaging and in particular non-military messaging about military actions in times of war always plays up 'we are using precision weapons, we watch out for the innocent, dead civilians are an unfortunate accident' paired with messaging about how the enemy are the real barbarians, they don't care about civilian death and collateral damage, they shell cities indiscriminately, see what they did to the last city they fought over? particularly in democracies you get a particularly stark discrepancy in messaging vs actual actions taken because there's somewhat more pressure to frame military actions as righteous, though even in non-democracies you see the same messaging because it is so massively useful to set the narrative of the war in your favor. Hell, even Russia in Ukraine is messaging that they're using precision weapons against military targets and that Ukraine is the one going ham shelling civilian targets (eg see all the Russian messaging about Ukraine shelling Donetsk, both pre-war and currently). Yes it is farcical, but it's also just how wars get messaged. It also depends a lot on who is actually in charge because militaries very rapidly adapt to the standards of whoever is in charge, as you no doubt are aware. Sponge's 'every officer' line is probably too much of a generalization, maybe every officer over a certain rank, selection pressures wrt advancing in rank past specific points certainly are a thing, but more to the point, all wars lead to piles of dead civilians and if the wellbeing of civilians trumped all other concerns, there'd be virtually no wars because civilians always seem to bear orders of magnitude more of the destruction. As an aside, I'd argue that the optimistic messaging about how 'our side tries to minimize casualties and we are less indiscriminate in our use of force' is actually quite earnest in most cases and it isn't even innately incompatibly with military action almost invariably having a significant civilian toll. On a related note, virtually everyone messages the former, but there are very genuine and very significant quantitative and qualitative differences in how effectively restraint is applied wrt risk to civilians. eg How many checks are there actually in targeting processes to assess collateral damage to civilians? Do the people planning even care? Are civilian deaths actually investigated? Do the investigations lead to anything? Do they lead to anything against people who are considered particularly useful to their units? How much has sweeping civilian deaths under the rug become an institutional practice? Are deaths in custody really being investigated? Is there any realistic way to apply pressure to partner forces that are harming civilians? Imo for most of those things you need to have a baseline institutional and moral belief that minimizing collateral damage and civilian death matters. You need true believers who will blow the whistle if they see atrocities happening or getting covered up. Sorry for the long post on this, but I reflect on this stuff every single time a new war breaks out and every time I talk to people about what their service actually entailed. Wars in general get messaged in very predictable ways that, sure, broadly break down into good guys vs bad guys narratives for what are no doubt obvious reasons, but also it does seem to very much matter just how cynical or apathetic the military conducting a war actually is. To tie this all back into the Israel Palestine context, it's incredibly alarming to see the most basic pretense of at least bothering to message that you care about collateral damage and civilians discarded. Invariably that speaks to an internal, institutional culture and when that messaging is coming from the civilian political structure as well, it suggests that there's virtually no external, civil pressure on the military to demonstrate restraint either. The absence of even lip service to restraint has been one of the consistent things in here that people have been reacting to from Israeli leadership. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 20:32
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bird food bathtub posted:Which [ad blocking extension] is that? I tried ublock and it didn't work in YouTube. I realize I'm late but— https://mybrowseraddon.com/adblocker-for-youtube.html Despite the slightly junkmail-sounding name, I can confirm that this extension works, and I've inspected the code myself and there is no funny business involved.
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Oct 14, 2023 21:15
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BUUNNI posted:Would you rather die fighting on your two legs (and have a chance at making your opponent reveal themselves for the murderous apartheid regime they are) or slowly be tortured inside ever-smaller boxes? Yeah, but "die fighting" in the scenario meant deliberately targeting schools and civilians just paints them in the same light, no? I don't support what Israel does either but it just seems like this wasn't the move to get any support and it's hard for me to wrestle with their thinking just being a final "gently caress you." There has to be a longer-term goal and I just don't see it. All I can picture this doing is accelerating Israel's barbarism. Maybe it'll expose them but who will step in to stop them? I can't imagine the US physically intervening...
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Oct 14, 2023 21:33
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Calvin Johnson Jr. posted:Yeah, but "die fighting" in the scenario meant deliberately targeting schools and civilians just paints them in the same light, no? I don't support what Israel does either but it just seems like this wasn't the move to get any support and it's hard for me to wrestle with their thinking just being a final "gently caress you." There has to be a longer-term goal and I just don't see it. All I can picture this doing is accelerating Israel's barbarism. Maybe it'll expose them but who will step in to stop them? I can't imagine the US physically intervening... Bibi himself had an interest in allowing Hamas to grow as a strategy to suppress the West Bank and Gaza simultaneously. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
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Oct 14, 2023 22:22
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drat. The us is insisting again that they earned Israel days before the attack. Someone hates Bibi over there
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Oct 14, 2023 22:40
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There is also a bunch of circumstantial evidence that Israeli intelligence and security forces allowed a substantial number of small arms to be funneled to Hamas. Besides the theft and sale from IDF sources, OSINT has identified large amounts of weapons as Israeli manufactured and either scrubbed of identifiers, or fake ones added.
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Oct 14, 2023 22:42
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BUUNNI posted:Would you rather die fighting on your two legs (and have a chance at making your opponent reveal themselves for the murderous apartheid regime they are) or slowly be tortured inside ever-smaller boxes? I'd rather die fighting the people trying to kill me not massacring some unrelated toddlers you sick gently caress. BUUNNI posted:Exactly. Like what is this poo poo? What the gently caress is wrong with you? The whole idea of collective punishment being immoral is because you're killing people who had nothing to do with the attack. There's not some reciprocal property where it suddenly becomes okay to kill people not involved in the collective punishment in retribution for collective punishment. You're not killing the people doing the murdering, you're just murdering other people, people probably just trying to live their lives. It's like killing someone's kid because they killed yours first, the kid still had nothing to do with it and you're just murdering someone innocent. Why are we tolerating this rear end in a top hat who's never posted in GIP until he started doing the world tour of telling us why it's cool to merc kids in every I/P thread on the forum? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 14, 2023 22:45
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I don't know, I don't listen to people with burner accounts anyway (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 14, 2023 22:48
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Jarmak posted:Like what is this poo poo? What the gently caress is wrong with you? The whole idea of collective punishment being immoral is because you're killing people who had nothing to do with the attack. There's not some reciprocal property where it suddenly becomes okay to kill people not involved in the collective punishment in retribution for collective punishment. You're not killing the people doing the murdering, you're just murdering other people, people probably just trying to live their lives. It's like killing someone's kid because they killed yours first, the kid still had nothing to do with it and you're just murdering someone innocent. ETA: Replying purely to the bit above. I haven't gone back through their other posts. Maera Sior fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 23:05
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Calvin Johnson Jr. posted:Yeah, but "die fighting" in the scenario meant deliberately targeting schools and civilians just paints them in the same light, no? I don't support what Israel does either but it just seems like this wasn't the move to get any support and it's hard for me to wrestle with their thinking just being a final "gently caress you." There has to be a longer-term goal and I just don't see it. All I can picture this doing is accelerating Israel's barbarism. Maybe it'll expose them but who will step in to stop them? I can't imagine the US physically intervening... Just sit around and wait for Isreal to decide that isolating the Gaza strip and continuing to push Palestinians out of the West Bank is a bad thing to do and embrace them with open arms? I'm not condoning their tactics or supporting them, I just see their appeal to a population of overwhelmingly young men that have no future. Isreal has the power, Palestinians have none. Isreal is the only one that can turn the other cheek here, they are the overall aggressor at the moment. They can stop this any time and withdraw settlers and stop targeting civilian populations. Enduring has not worked out for the Palestinians as Isreal just continues to repress and take. The actions of Hamas are both horrific and futile but this doesn't get any better unless Isreal eradicates the Palestinians or decides to step back unilaterally and show they are working to coexist.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:22
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Just a reminder that this thread - and indeed the rest of GIP - isn’t reserved only to regular GIP.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:46
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Borscht posted:drat. The us is insisting again that they earned Israel days before the attack. Someone hates Bibi over there So is it confirmed that they had prior knowledge of the attack? Or did it just not reach the right people?
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Oct 15, 2023 00:51
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Per CNN, the details about what the US knew isn't clear. At least not beyond a general understanding that something big was going to happen that day involving rockets. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/politics/us-intelligence-warnings-potential-gaza-clash-days-before-attack/index.html
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Oct 15, 2023 01:54
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https://twitter.com/john_hudson/status/1713318391157604431?s=46&t=fppHBZSlD4AbSz5pJxjFMQ I knew a change to this stance was only a matter of time but still…
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Oct 15, 2023 04:08
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Israel killing Americans with impunity isn't anything new. It's pathetic how we fork over billions to them and consider them an "ally" in any capacity.
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Oct 15, 2023 04:13
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Mustang posted:Israel killing Americans with impunity isn't anything new. We do the same poo poo with the Saudis. Utility to the regime is all that matters.
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Oct 15, 2023 11:30
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Haven't seen it posted in here yet, but apparently Israel bombed the airports in Damascus and Aleppo to disrupt Iranian supplies to Hezbollah.
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Oct 15, 2023 13:36
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In case any of you lads are interested Ryan McBeth, ex US army youtuber did a breakdown of a captured HAMAS Operations Order: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvYwfl7dgTY 22 minutes long.
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Oct 15, 2023 13:56
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psydude posted:Haven't seen it posted in here yet, but apparently Israel bombed the airports in Damascus and Aleppo to disrupt Iranian supplies to Hezbollah. Israel hit the Aleppo airport twice last week.
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Oct 15, 2023 13:59
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Just Another Lurker posted:In case any of you lads are interested Ryan McBeth, ex US army youtuber did a breakdown of a captured HAMAS Operations Order: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvYwfl7dgTY 22 minutes long. "Recoilless rifles are wwii weapons" -Ryan the anti armor infantryman, having never heard of the Carl G apparently.
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Oct 15, 2023 14:18
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Xakura posted:"Recoilless rifles are wwii weapons" Tbf the Carl G only missed WW2 by a couple of years.
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Oct 15, 2023 14:25
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A.o.D. posted:We do the same poo poo with the Saudis. Utility to the regime is all that matters. You're not wrong but at least Israel has some level of public support in this country compared to Saudi.
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Oct 15, 2023 14:29
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Jarmak posted:Tbf the Carl G only missed WW2 by a couple of years. Ok, I went back, his quote is even worse: "I didn't even know recoilless rifles were a thing anymore. That is some world war 2/korean war kinda kit." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvYwfl7dgTY&t=1051s
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Oct 15, 2023 14:34
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Xakura posted:Ok, I went back, his quote is even worse: "I didn't even know recoilless rifles were a thing anymore. That is some world war 2/korean war kinda kit." That's amazing
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Oct 15, 2023 14:39
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Xakura posted:Ok, I went back, his quote is even worse: "I didn't even know recoilless rifles were a thing anymore. That is some world war 2/korean war kinda kit." i remember reading the books that Nicholas Irving put out. Ranger, 3rd bat, sniper. This stupid gently caress really thought he was gonna do some damage against a AFV (that turned out to be friendly) with his m203. You ain't gotta be smart to kill good apparently.
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Oct 15, 2023 14:53
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Jarmak posted:I'd rather die fighting the people trying to kill me not massacring some unrelated toddlers you sick gently caress. Once again, if you have issues with Hamas’ actions then the person you should be hassling is Netenyahu, since he’s the one who gave them the room they needed to do the attacks in order to prevent a Palestinian state from forming. The plan clearly blew up on the Zionist’s faces. I don’t think it’s “cool to merc kids” for the record. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 15:06
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MEMRITV has been translating some enlightening stuff since this popped off. Definitely worth a look at the Islamic side of the media. https://www.memri.org/tv/iran-tv-video-warning-israel-ground-operation-gaza-tanks-turn-to-coffins
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Oct 15, 2023 15:08
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In some defense- the Carl G is colloquially called a Rocket Launcher, and it wasn't in-service with normal dudes when he was in, just limited deployment with SOF elements. RR to GWOT grunts are things like the SPG9- crew served, vehicle mounted AT weapons. The US Army phased out RR in the 70s. He is probably completely ignorant to Carl. Mcbeth is a good source, but like all, mistakes happen. I've noticed the more 'elite' the unit, and the higher the rank, the more likely to be a specialize idiot- see Mike Glover, former CAG, who says Dry Fire is bad and will get you killed in the streets, and says you should use FMJ in your CCW. Mcbeth was an AT Grunt- as was I- but he doesn't seem like a weapons guy. Irving on the 203 probably comes from inadequate training and pop culture influence, or he is just dumb, because that is some childish- like elementary school- beliefs.
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Oct 15, 2023 15:38
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dubzee posted:MEMRITV has been translating some enlightening stuff since this popped off. Definitely worth a look at the Islamic side of the media. not sure any translation was neccessary on that one
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Oct 15, 2023 15:40
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The HiG and the Taliban shot plenty of recoilless rounds at us in Afghanistan in '13-'14 and had actually started lobbing them into the FOB because they came in at a shallow enough trajectory that they wouldn't always trigger the CRAM. They were more accurate than mortars but obviously had a problem with standoff distance. Still, they'd usually manage to pop off 3-4 at a time before high-tailing it.
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Oct 15, 2023 16:05
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BUUNNI posted:Once again, if you have issues with Hamas’ actions then the person you should be hassling is Netenyahu, since he’s the one who gave them the room they needed to do the attacks in order to prevent a Palestinian state from forming. The plan clearly blew up on the Zionist’s faces. I don’t think it’s “cool to merc kids” for the record. Vent I won't whine if you probe me for replying to this but I'd rather do my time then let this gross poo poo stand unanswered. Netenyahu and Hamas can both eat poo poo. The world would be a better place if both of them were fired into the sun along with every piece of poo poo like you that tries to justify terror attacks on innocent people like you're calling penalties in a sports game and you get some free ethnic cleansing if someone else does it first. I don't know how I can state this clearer: "Israel vs Palestine" is really Hamas vs Likud with 9M+ other people of whom the vast majority are just trying to pay their rent, raise their kids, and find something that makes them happy in the world getting thrown like grist into a suffering mill they have minimal power to control in any way. They're loving human beings, not points on a board you can throw away because someone else committed a penalty. Israel is far more powerful in this situation, is causing far more suffering, and has far more (all of the) agency to do anything to stop it. Absolutely none of that being true serves as the slightest justification for murdering, raping, and/or torturing random people who are just living their lives and happen to have been born in a country that's under the control of evil assholes. I've really thought part of the reason this forum remains one of the only good places to discuss current events on the Internet is because it has a high population of people who have witnessed this poo poo first hand and know better. That was the source of my comment regarding tolerating this bullshit, not that this forum is for vets only. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 15, 2023 17:30
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Perun posted a video about the IDFs force structure, it's strengths, weaknesses, and the preliminary lessons learned about the recent events. Try 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xbkakrwmFo RandomPauI fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 18:08
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Perun rules.
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Oct 15, 2023 18:42
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bulletsponge13 posted:70k/Sq mile. 17k, not 70k. Which is still plenty loving horrible.
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Oct 15, 2023 20:24
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dubzee posted:MEMRITV has been translating some enlightening stuff since this popped off. Definitely worth a look at the Islamic side of the media. It's not very applicable to this particular video but please be aware that MEMRI has a history of being very biased in their translation decisions to the point of being deliberately misleading at times: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/
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Oct 15, 2023 20:28
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Lemniscate Blue posted:It's not very applicable to this particular video but please be aware that MEMRI has a history of being very biased in their translation decisions to the point of being deliberately misleading at times: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/ It has led to some delightful Khemri TV memes, however.
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Oct 15, 2023 21:01
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