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No matter how many tons of ordnance they lay on, starvation and dehydration will still be the biggest killers. The blockade is the mortal threat, here.
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Oct 13, 2023 20:04
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Dum Cumpster posted:Update on the world's worst he said she said Well at least we got a good 48 hours to launder every right wing uncle's talking point for the next 6 months into the general consciousness.
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Oct 13, 2023 20:30
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Madurai posted:No matter how many tons of ordnance they lay on, starvation and dehydration will still be the biggest killers. The blockade is the mortal threat, here. Oh, don’t forget disease.
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Oct 13, 2023 20:37
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Stultus Maximus posted:Oh, don’t forget disease. Yeah I've got cholera on my bingo card. Along with Abbas staying out of the country for as long as he can manage.
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Oct 13, 2023 20:54
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Bored As gently caress posted:Is it the exact same poo poo? Please point to the part of Gaza with no civilians. It's not a big place, and millions of people live there. Perhaps the solution to violence and radicalism will be additional violence this time. Infidelicious fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 21:43
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70k/Sq mile. There is no place in Gaza that isn't Mega City 1 packed. E- a quick search shows that is about as dense as Manhattan. Even with precision ordnance, you are killing unaffiliated civilians in other buildings, on the street, and passing by. bulletsponge13 fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 22:01
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If someone wants to discuss only aerial bombing and whether or not it is discriminate or not (it is not discriminate in this case), then I have to ask if they also think that cutting off food, water, and electricity and telling 1 million people to dehouse themselves is discriminate use of force and justifiable coercion and force against civilians. Before you try to work through whether this seems reasonable, it's the kind of thing that has already been written about and discussed at length, before this current conflict kicked off. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1
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Oct 13, 2023 22:49
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oh cool, Israel is running YouTube ads about how there are Israeli babies being murdered and they are must do whatever it takes to keep their country and it's people safe. ok, great. glad I'm seeing those.
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Oct 13, 2023 22:53
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To the question of where the Palestinians in Gaza are supposed to go, the Israelis helpfully marked it out on the flyers they airdropped earlier today: Not an Arabic speaker but apparently the little box in the upper left is labeled something like "Humanitarian Zone" Roughly where that area is:  Yes, they're actually expecting +1 million Palestinians from North Gaza to cram into about 10 square miles of farm fields north of Rafah and Khan Yunis without any sort of shelter or sanitation. And on 24 hours notice.
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Oct 13, 2023 23:21
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cruelty is the point
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Oct 13, 2023 23:49
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NBC took their time with I'm presuming verifying this as this has been floating around Israeli news and social media since at least Wednesday. https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1712943385424642281?t=kH85CSo0ZSdcwkD3fj4rHA&s=19
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Oct 13, 2023 23:54
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That’s a lot of booms on the skyline live streams.
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Oct 14, 2023 00:57
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Not to be outdone by Hamas's child abduction and murder brigade, Israeli officials are turning a big knob labeled "genocide" and not even bothering to look back at the audience https://twitter.com/therapisthammam/status/1712877548420345989?s=19
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Oct 14, 2023 01:01
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So why does Israel think it's okay for them to deliberately target civilians? Disgusted with the crackdown on pro-Palestinian protests while Israel vows to do something 1000x worse than Hamas. We cannot end our relationship with Israel soon enough, it provides nothing of value to the United States and just causes non-stop issues in the Middle East. I'm guessing a country of not even 10 million people wouldn't be quite so bloodthirsty if they didn't have the world's only superpower at their back.
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Oct 14, 2023 01:12
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Discussion Quorum posted:Not to be outdone by Hamas's child abduction and murder brigade, Israeli officials are turning a big knob labeled "genocide" and not even bothering to look back at the audience  This loving sucks poo poo and it's never gonna end.
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Oct 14, 2023 01:26
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Handsome Ralph posted:
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Oct 14, 2023 01:30
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West Bank is still there and an ENTIRE Lebanon. https://youtu.be/rJBmKQpZ02k?si=l_cbujxw0gpaIvkJ
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Oct 14, 2023 01:36
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Confirmed, Israel is bombing the evacuation convoys. https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1712911792106602608
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Oct 14, 2023 02:13
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Remind me what’s the difference between a war crime and a crime against humanity?
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Oct 14, 2023 03:00
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FrozenVent posted:Remind me what’s the difference between a war crime and a crime against humanity? Scale
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Oct 14, 2023 03:13
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FrozenVent posted:Remind me what’s the difference between a war crime and a crime against humanity? War crimes are violations of the Geneva Conventions, crimes against humanity align more with the UDHR. We'd generally think more of individuals committing war crimes (and can be prosecuted for them by their own governments), with crimes against humanity being systemic, the product of state actors and policy. But something can be both a war crime and crime against humanity. e: https://www.government.nl/topics/in...mes%20of%20war. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 03:22
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Cythereal posted:Confirmed, Israel is bombing the evacuation convoys. I almost cannot believe that this is real. Does.... does this feel way more brazen this time around? Between the PM, the defense minister, various generals, Hamas.... nobody is even bothering to use coded language for killing civilians. It's not subtext, it's just text.
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Oct 14, 2023 03:44
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I feel like the past twenty years have nearly fully desensitized me to human suffering, especially with so much of it being on video, televised, or broadcast live. There's a point where it just becomes white noise or static in my brain and it just stops being a thing that gets processed. I really wish that people weren't so lovely overall and could just get along somehow.
Pine Cone Jones fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 03:50
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Potato Salad posted:I almost cannot believe that this is real. this is a genocide done in modern times with videos available in 4k hd viewed in real time
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Oct 14, 2023 03:58
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Israel killed a journalist and wounded 2 others covering the poo poo in Lebanon. They were blown up, unclear with what (unfortunate artillery strike collateral damage, or if they were targeted by a missile). Lots of NSFL pics and videos circling the war reddits and Twitter so beware whay you click. This poo poo just gets more and more depressing the more you pay attention to it.
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Oct 14, 2023 04:06
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I'm getting the sense that all the residents of North Gaza gathering in a small area designated by Israel might be a bad idea.
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Oct 14, 2023 04:11
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Potato Salad posted:I almost cannot believe that this is real. In general and across conflicts globally I would say it does feel as though the Geneva Conventions and don’t-kill-civilians norms of war are generally collapsing through lack of respect or meaningful consequences for their systemic violation. Not coincidentally I think the post-World War order that produced them is collapsing in parallel.
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Oct 14, 2023 04:12
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Terrifying Effigies posted:To the question of where the Palestinians in Gaza are supposed to go, the Israelis helpfully marked it out on the flyers they airdropped earlier today: Hey Israel you shouldn't be taking ideas from history
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Oct 14, 2023 04:16
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mllaneza posted:I'm getting the sense that all the residents of North Gaza gathering in a small area designated by Israel might be a bad idea. Maybe because Israel has a history of ethnic cleansing, with millions of displaced Palestinians already living in refugee camps in neighboring countries for generations? Maybe because we should be demanding that Israel stop it's genocide? The only moral action open to the United States foreign policy is to bomb the IDF to stop the genocide. Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 04:19
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I don't understand what Hamas' goal was here. They're giving the green light to a military that they are nowhere on par with; pulling a 1500+ *civilian* death toll seems like it would only invite condemnation on themselves almost universally. I mean Israel displaced and continues to displace people and I think most people would agree being driven from their homes en masse would create a lot of hatred and desire for retaliation. Then I look at Israel's side and it seems like they look at this as an existential threat and feel like they can push the line further because of that. I'm trying to be respectful in this thread and I know the conflict is complicated; but it just seems like Hamas self-sabotaged themselves and innocent people are going to pay for it. Israel will have complete air dominance and I don't know what anyone can say to them to stop them from retaliating disproportionately. I can't imagine America intervening on Palestine's behalf either despite what Israel does; isn't this what the evangelicals want?
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Oct 14, 2023 06:22
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Pine Cone Jones posted:I feel like the past twenty years have nearly fully desensitized me to human suffering, especially with so much of it being on video, televised, or broadcast live. There's a point where it just becomes white noise or static in my brain and it just stops being a thing that gets processed. I really wish that people weren't so lovely overall and could just get along somehow. I've been a big fan of GoPro cameras for over a decade. And about six months ago, I got a DJI drone. I've had a lot of fun with both documenting my mountain bike rides and travel adventures and making stupid little videos that get 20 likes from my friends on Instagram, and then I see footage of Hamas committing atrocities in first-person video, and Israel releasing drone footage of a "target" being hit. War going real-time and prime-time should have had the effect of making the world go "yo, what the gently caress" and instead it's more like "yo, this is loving awesome" when it's their side wielding the camera. The sheer volume of horrifying poo poo being released in 4k really does desensitize and inure us all that hey, the world is not at all ok and all of this poo poo is really hosed up. I'd be lying if I said this hasn't taken a toll on me over the past few years especially. Combed Thunderclap posted:Not coincidentally I think the post-World War order that produced them is collapsing in parallel. The foundation has been eroding for a long time, but I think the first time I really understood this in practical terms was in 2014. Russia was invading eastern Ukraine with "little green men" while swearing up and down they weren't, and in the Middle East, the Islamic State was seizing vast amounts of territory across Syria and Iraq and releasing videos showing them blowing up the barrier sand berms and declaring an end to Sykes-Picot. I've always known that the international system was anarchic, but these two things especially really just demonstrated that the so-called rules-based international order basically existed by consent of those who created it. It's a fig leaf on state power's more barbarous instincts, and we've seen that writ large over the past decade especially. I haven't really posted about this here before, but from 2009-2010, I lived and worked in Egypt as an English language instructor. Most of my students were professional adults in their late 20s to late 30s, all of whom were educated and working for Egyptian firms that worked with larger multinational companies across a variety of sectors, be they oil/gas, banking, etc. The overwhelming majority of them were super friendly and decent people, but holy loving poo poo the amount of casual anti-Semitism I heard tossed around was loving appalling. I had students who were really friendly and kind to me talk about how they'd heard that six million Jews weren't really killed in the Holocaust or how the Mossad warned all New York Jews to stay away from the WTC on 9/11. I also had one student claim that Jews could fly. To be honest, the people who were least anti-Semitic were the few Salafi students I had because they interpreted the Quran so literally that they took the whole "People of the Book" thing so seriously that they merely saw Jews and Christians as people who hadn't come around to the teachings of Mohammed as revealed by Allah. This doesn't even begin to account for the insane conspiracy theories I had to occasionally dispel, such as the US preparing to invade Egypt and other like bullshit. And then you go to a place like Beirut, where even the walls of the nicest neighborhoods are still pockmarked by bullet holes from the Israeli occupation and the civil war. History has a long loving memory in this part of the world, and having been exposed to both sides of this conflict, it's easy to understand the paranoid, insular and aggressive mindset that Israel has and also easy to understand why the populations of neighboring states hate Israel in the ways that they do. There is absolutely nothing easy, clean or simple about any of this. I'm just so loving sick of seeing innocent people suffer.
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Oct 14, 2023 06:33
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Lots of airstrikes into gaza since the sun started to rise this morning on the webcams, also some sporadic gunfire? I'm not the most knowledgeable gunsperson around, but it from the rate of fire and rather short bursts it sounded like the autocannon you'd see on something like the Apache.
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Oct 14, 2023 06:41
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pantslesswithwolves posted:I'm just so loving sick of seeing innocent people suffer.
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Oct 14, 2023 06:41
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Calvin Johnson Jr. posted:I don't understand what Hamas' goal was here. They're giving the green light to a military that they are nowhere on par with; pulling a 1500+ *civilian* death toll seems like it would only invite condemnation on themselves almost universally. I mean Israel displaced and continues to displace people and I think most people would agree being driven from their homes en masse would create a lot of hatred and desire for retaliation. Then I look at Israel's side and it seems like they look at this as an existential threat and feel like they can push the line further because of that. I'm trying to be respectful in this thread and I know the conflict is complicated; but it just seems like Hamas self-sabotaged themselves and innocent people are going to pay for it. Israel will have complete air dominance and I don't know what anyone can say to them to stop them from retaliating disproportionately. I can't imagine America intervening on Palestine's behalf either despite what Israel does; isn't this what the evangelicals want? As far as I can tell Hamas' logic is that of a person stranded on an island burning down their hut and shouting while they watch a passing ship sail away over the horizon. The other Arab states are slowly normalising relations with Israel because their leaderships like money. Once that happens what support they did provide to the Palestinians inside the West Bank and the concentration camp we call Gaza will dwindle and eventually cease. And so will the Palestinian population in those places. As loving horrible as recent events are, it probably made sense to Hamas in as much as it throws a wrench into that normalisation of relationships, which buys them some time before their support goes. Yes an insane number of their own people would die, but as a population they were already being slowly and not very discretely murdered. This way the fight would continue for a while longer, and who knows, maybe Israel goes too far too quickly and the world decides its not actually ok with watching another genocide. Or more realistically it would simply become domestically impossible for the Arab states to normalise with Israel for a few years/generation because of the outrage in their own peoples. Israel by its nature as an apartheid state always reacts disproportionately, so goading them into a ground invasion that both outrages observers and potentially punishes the IDF would be a realistically achievable goal, and it's worked before. Hamas obviously didn't expect the IDF and intelligence agencies to fundamentally fail in every aspect of their duty, so they probably weren't anticipating the scale of what their raid would achieve in terms of casualties, and thus the reaction they are going to see though. Over recent decades Israel have turned away from every avenue that doesn't end with all the Palestinians of the Occupied Territories gone, either through death or exile - and it bears pointing at that the ones in Gaza cannot get out. The relative quiet in Gaza before this week was, by Netanyahu's own words, because they were focussing on clearing the West Bank of Palestinians, and he thought Hamas was cowed by the carrot and stick of 'mowing the grass' (periodic military actions to kill Gazans) and allowing some people out of the prison to work for money. So yeah, I think there is a logic and reasoning to what they did, but I don't think it's particularly relatable to any of us living normal lives in western countries. Edit: gently caress. https://twitter.com/LarryAlbertGil/status/1712920117829341270 Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 07:13
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Calvin Johnson Jr. posted:I don't understand what Hamas' goal was here. They're giving the green light to a military that they are nowhere on par with; pulling a 1500+ *civilian* death toll seems like it would only invite condemnation on themselves almost universally. I mean Israel displaced and continues to displace people and I think most people would agree being driven from their homes en masse would create a lot of hatred and desire for retaliation. Then I look at Israel's side and it seems like they look at this as an existential threat and feel like they can push the line further because of that. I'm trying to be respectful in this thread and I know the conflict is complicated; but it just seems like Hamas self-sabotaged themselves and innocent people are going to pay for it. Israel will have complete air dominance and I don't know what anyone can say to them to stop them from retaliating disproportionately. I can't imagine America intervening on Palestine's behalf either despite what Israel does; isn't this what the evangelicals want? How do you want to die, go down fighting quick and brutal, or slowly starving in misery while the noose tightens?
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Oct 14, 2023 07:33
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They still didn't have to kill innocent civilians.
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Oct 14, 2023 12:33
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Desperate people do desperate poo poo
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Oct 14, 2023 12:56
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Bored As gently caress posted:They still didn't have to kill innocent civilians. Who, Isreal or Hamas?
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Oct 14, 2023 13:25
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Calvin Johnson Jr. posted:I don't understand what Hamas' goal was here. They're giving the green light to a military that they are nowhere on par with; pulling a 1500+ *civilian* death toll seems like it would only invite condemnation on themselves almost universally. I mean Israel displaced and continues to displace people and I think most people would agree being driven from their homes en masse would create a lot of hatred and desire for retaliation. Then I look at Israel's side and it seems like they look at this as an existential threat and feel like they can push the line further because of that. I'm trying to be respectful in this thread and I know the conflict is complicated; but it just seems like Hamas self-sabotaged themselves and innocent people are going to pay for it. Israel will have complete air dominance and I don't know what anyone can say to them to stop them from retaliating disproportionately. I can't imagine America intervening on Palestine's behalf either despite what Israel does; isn't this what the evangelicals want? Would you rather die fighting on your two legs (and have a chance at making your opponent reveal themselves for the murderous apartheid regime they are) or slowly be tortured inside ever-smaller boxes?
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Oct 14, 2023 13:31
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In all the talk about Palestinian desperation it's worth remembering that Hamas is not the Palestinian people, even if Hamas claims otherwise. Hamas is a genocidal organization for whom killing Jews is just as important if not more important than actually doing anything to help the Palestinian people under the occupation. I also tentatively agree with the theory that Hamas saw this as a window of maximum relative strength. Between Israeli infighting and IDF units threatening desertion over Bibi going full fash and the gulf states normalizing Israel as a counterbalance to Iran, Hamas likely felt that Israel's position in the future is only going to strengthen. So even if Hamas can't win right now better to order your troops to go down fighting and kill as many Jews as possible. An organizational level suicide bombing essentially.
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Oct 14, 2023 13:44
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