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CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Grip it and rip it posted:

But maybe... this time...?

"If we war crime hard enough we can cleanse.....er, gain more land!"

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CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Crab Dad posted:

Hamas/civilian it's all really just labels and we like to think it's all fluid - Israeli propaganda. likely

Yeah, its far more likely they are killing non-combatants as they have in the past and going "Oops, all Hamas"

Its not like the dead can defend themselves...

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

I mean, I hate Israel as much as the next Jew, but Jesus gently caress some of you people have some brain worms Re: Israel.

I know it’s not antisemitism, you folks aren’t like that, but goddamn.

I mean its a country that actively alienates and ostracizes the natives and then act like they are profoundly aghast that the natives are fighting back.

And purposefully sabotaged any sort of two state solutions so they could conduct a campaign of land seizure and ethnic cleansing.

And they have a proven habit of labelling civilians who run or hide from the military as combatants down to outright killing them and/or disappearing them. The problem is it has nothing to do with being Jewish, everything to do with the political state they've created. And they've purposefully created a system that conflates criticism of Israel as a state as criticism of Jews.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Oct 10, 2023

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

It’s loving Hamas.

It’s also loving Israel.

They suck, hard. Both sides even, g-d help me for saying it.

But Hamas isn’t just homegrown anti Israeli terrorism, and the parts that aren’t homegrown are pretty awful.

Now take everything I said and find/replace with Israel because goddamn is the corollary is true.

The worst part to me? This is a democracy. Israel is a democracy. There is no such thing as good governments on long enough time lines.

God I hope this ends as quickly as it began, but I doubt very much so that it does.

Yeah they both loving suck. Whoever wins, we all lose.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

facialimpediment posted:

I think this is the first really big news event since the muskian enshittification of twitter and holy gently caress is it completely, utterly unreliable. I thought I could fish through the enshittification with the sources I follow, but it's just not really possible.

Granted, this whole deal has completely overturned a lot of experts' priors about the region, so the true experts are shutting up and trying to find out as much as we are. At this point, if it's not an on-ground video with a reporter talking, it's probably not worth much, but that's risking seeing snuff footage and imma pass on that.

Musk has openly embraced Right Wing echochambers because he thinks it will get him closer to people in power. And because Musk is a loving apartheid Right Wing moron.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

M_Gargantua posted:

He's not wrong.

Tiny Timbs posted:

I feel like he's going to run into the problem that Trump did where none of the old money and old power can stand him for a nanosecond

This. Despite the fact that he's viewed as smart, he's a techbro douchebag who has a habit of burning bridges.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

The funniest thing is neither of those two can

:sbahj:

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

ASAPI posted:

That opening drone footage was both interesting and scary. I don't like how easily they attacked infrastructure and kept the drone (presumably) after delivering the payload.

I never thought Hamas would end up with "airstrike" capability.

I wonder how many lessons Hamas has taken from seeing it done in Ukraine.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Soylent Pudding posted:

Before the birth of modern Zionism, Palestine was already one of if not the most heavily Jewish populated regions in the world as a percentage of the population, with some sources suggesting as high as 10%. Even if Zionism never happened there would have been enough Jewish communities in Palestine to demand their own separate state following British decolonization.

Note, there are western countries such as Russia that ghettoized their Jewish populations and the Jewish percentages of the regions containing ghettos were much high than in countries where Jews had free movement, and in those cases the Jewish population is usually averaged over the entire country's population or the larger regions the ghettoized Jews were mostly expelled from.

Israel is a settler colonialist state because it is colonizing, displacing, and genociding Palestinians in the west bank and gaza. Israelis living in settlements in occupied Palestine are settlers and colonists and Israel should dismantle them and repatriate the inhabitants to Israel proper. Israelis living in the recognized borders of Israel outside of Palestine are not settlers or colonists to the extent they are not actively participating in those crimes against humanity and have as much of a right to live in the region as the Palestinians do.

Sderot is inside the green line and pre-67 borders and therefore outside the territory Palestine claims, yet I've seen plenty of folks, including folks on this forum, call the murdered civilians there "colonists" and "settler occupiers". It's also been my personal experience that folks using settler occupier language to describe every civilian in Israel outside of Palestine's claimed borders are simply performing the requisite dehumanization to feel comfortable calling for the ethnic cleansing of all Jewish people from the region.

Yeah I think you missed the entire point about how native Jewish people and Zionism are not the same, and how Zionism led to poo poo like this:

Fivemarks posted:

I PROBABLY Shouldn't bring up stuff like the Village of Najd, and how it was depopulated by the Negev Brigade, and how Sderot was built on its ruins?

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

What if the paraglider dropped grenades? What if he did it by opening a box that was taped to something structural

Nah needs a fix or movable gun emplacement that is rough shod added to be a technical.

You just describes a bomber.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug
Yeah, its important to keep in mind: Both Hamas and IDF are bad, but the IDFs long goal and the Israeli governments goal has been the dissolution of Palestine and Gaza for decades. Anything giving them ammo to finally achieve that is exactly what they want.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Suicide Watch posted:

IDF is a citizen force that serves at the orders of the government. When fighting the regional wars of the 60s, and 70s, they were a legitimate armed force. Their policing actions later on in the occupied territories and Lebanon are very questionable.

IDF has plenty of leaders who go on to become moderate and liberal politicians in the Israeli government, mainly because everyone has to serve.

Not saying you’re wrong, I think it’s just more nuanced than that. Hard liners in both Palestinian and Israeli governments want this war to escalate. Civilians of both will suffer. Hamas is loving evil but they obviously don’t represent all Palestinians.

Except the party in control of both sides is Extremist. From Bibi to Hamas.

To say there are some progressive elements ignores that they are not the ones in control. At all. That's not nuance. Bibi in Israel and Hamas in Gaza have spent a long time locking the more moderate voices out of power.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Jarmak posted:

I think the point of the nuance is that the IDF is not itself the source of the problem; I would label likud as being the closer analog to Hamas.

It's a notable distinction because gaining control of the IDF is a possible route to improve things, whereas the only route to improving things via likud or Hamas is destroying or marginalizing them as effective organizations.

Edit: to be clear I'm not minimizing the IDF's bad behavior, just saying it's lovely because of who controls it not because it's intrinsically lovely.

I think IDFs bad behavior is a cultural issue internal to their armed forces and encouraged by the Israeli state, not something distinct based on who is leading.

Suicide Watch posted:

Sure, but what is your message to the people within Israel who are locked out of power and trying to do something about it?

Dunno what to tell you man, but frankly protesting harder was the only thing that even slightly delayed the Israeli Justice Reform, which then went through anyways.

Its not something that the minority parties nor Israelis can really control - Israel is well on the path to a fascist state.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Jarmak posted:

Culture is heavily influenced and potentially changed by leadership. This is especially true in a situation of universal service where the culture doesn't reinforce itself through self-selection.

The change in leadership should've been when Bibi was pushed out previously.

He came back.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug
6,000 bombs. How do you even drop that many on such a small area.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Arione posted:

Well that's what happens when they use human shields...

Wow, are you are drone operator?

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug
Humanitarian groups and the UN are already calling on Israel to rescind their evacuation order:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-war-friday-intl-hnk/index.html

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Cythereal posted:

Israel's president on the subject of civilians in Gaza is: "What civilians? I don't see any civilians?"

https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/1712811314299490353?s=46&t=BHs6Pl38GJXGN2Y4xeriNA

:stare: Jesus loving Christ.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

The mass evacuation order may or may not have been intended as a ruse, but according to reporting on the ground they bombed a civilian/medical convoy of ~30 vehicles that was complying with the order.

Which they have done before.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug
They told millions of people to evacuate, then bombed the evacuation convoy. This isn't collateral damage, they knew what they were doing and have been doing this poo poo for over a decade now.

Labeling it 'typical military collateral damage' is a loving disservice, and is whitewashing the history of war crimes the IDF has done.

quote:

Apologists, even of the pseudo-liberal variety, often argue that killings by the IDF are inadvertent, accidental, unintended, lacked willful intent, or were in legitimate self-defense. Even a skeptical cursory view of the findings of human rights organizations paint a very different picture offered by such apologists. Consider the Second Intifada where violence among Palestinians was more prevalent and heavily cited as reasons for enhanced security.

“The organization found a pattern of repeated Israeli use of excessive lethal force during clashes between its security forces and Palestinian demonstrators in situations where demonstrators were unarmed and posed no threat of death or serious injury to the security forces or to others. In cases that HRW investigated where gunfire by Palestinian security forces or armed protesters was a factor, use of lethal force by the IDF was indiscriminate and not directed at the source of the threat, in violation of international law enforcement standards” (p. 1). - Human Rights Watch, Investigation into the Unlawful Use of Force in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Northern Israel (New York, 2000).
"[T]he majority of people killed were taking part in demonstrations where stones were the only weapon used [. . .] A large proportion of those injured and killed included children usually present and often among those throwing stones during demonstrations. Bystanders, people within their homes and ambulance personnel were also killed. Many persons were apparently killed by poorly targeted lethal fire; others [. . .] appear, on many occasions, to have been deliberately targeted. In many of the locations where children were killed there was no imminent danger to life nor reasonable expectation of future danger” (pp. 5–6). - Amnesty International, Excessive Use of Lethal Force (London, 2000).
[Open-fire] regulations apparently enable firing in situations where there is no clear and present danger to life, or even in situations where there is no life-threatening danger at all (p. 7). - B’Tselem, Trigger Happy: Unjustified Shooting and Violation of the Open-Fire Regulations during the al-Aqsa Intifada (Jerusalem, 2002).
"During the first months of the al-Aqsa intifada, Palestinians held hundreds of demonstrations [. . .] Palestinian demonstrators did not open fire in the vast majority of demonstrations. The soldiers responded to these demonstrations by using excessive and disproportionate force, leading to many casualties, including children" (p. 16). - B’Tselem, Trigger Happy: Unjustified Shooting and Violation of the Open-Fire Regulations during the al-Aqsa Intifada (Jerusalem, 2002).
[R]egulations [. . .] permit soldiers to open fire, automatically, at any Palestinian who approaches areas in the Gaza Strip referred to as ‘danger zones.’ [. . .] In effect, it constitutes a death sentence for every person who approaches, whether deliberately or by mistake, a settlement’s fence, certain roads, or the fence along the border.... An order of this kind also completely ignores the fact that many Palestinians try to sneak into Israel to go to work and not to injure Israeli soldiers or civilians" (pp. 39-41). - B’Tselem, Trigger Happy: Unjustified Shooting and Violation of the Open-Fire Regulations during the al-Aqsa Intifada (Jerusalem, 2002).

To top it off, the IDF does not exude a similar kind of excessive force for violence by Jewish groups. Amnesty notes, "The Israeli security forces’ ability to police violent demonstrations without the use of firearms is indicated in their policing of violent demonstrations by Jewish groups. [. . .] [N]o demonstration organized by a Jewish group has ever been fired on, even by rubber bullets". One wonders why this disparity occurs
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Israel_Defence_Force
Like, as bad as the US DOD is, we regularly prosecuted and convicted soldiers who did less than what the IDF does. As bad as Hamas is, and Hamas fully deserves to get crushed, using Hamas as an excuse to carry out war crimes and then argue its in self-defense is seriously hosed.

IDF is a well trained and professional military. They know exactly what they are doing.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Oct 14, 2023

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

FrozenVent posted:

Targeting civilians predate strategic bombing. Heck, even if the action wasn’t aimed at them, an army on the march would loot everything on its path - “foraging” was how they fed themselves, there wasn’t much of a logistics train.

If you want an example from classics, look at Carthage or the Gallic wars. Hell, the Trojans didn’t have a great time.

The mongol invasions weren’t especially pleasant either from what I heard.

Yes, but we kinda discourage that now, and good luck using that as an excuse as a defense in a court martial.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Tiny Timbs posted:

Anyone who think there's a chance of him leaving is kidding themselves

Seriously, a major corruption case that wrapped up multiple of his subordinates didn't take him down, and he's openly hardened his position.

A.o.D. posted:

Pretend I'm mad max and I'm pointing and saying "That's a police state."

Pretty much. Democracy in middle east, my rear end.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Alchenar posted:

Okay well war-aims defined - Netanyahu plumbing for full re-occupation.

https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1721689621266842044

"See that? That's where I held up that lovely bomb poster"

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

bloody ghost titty posted:

Former deputy chief of staff to the Israeli military on BBC just now comparing Hamas to 1945 Nazis...this...feels bad? Like, quiet part loud bad?

"Hamas is the Nazis, so that's why we're going full on Warsaw Ghetto on the Gaza Strip" :stare:

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

orange juche posted:

Hamas isn't even close to an existential threat to the Israeli state, it's such a bullshit take and also massive projection too lol

Its like the lesson the Israeli Government learned from the Holocaust was: Next time, be the boot rather than subject to the boot.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug
Not to mention that the Hamas attack has largely been used, much like 9/11 was, as a way to carry out things that the Israeli Government was just looking for an excuse to do.

They always wanted to do this, this was just a catalyst for them to press the Go button. And for all we know (conjecture here) they knew it was coming and stayed complacent to exploit this outrage.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Laughing Zealot posted:

Boy, things are truly gone to hell when this guy is making sensible points.

https://twitter.com/GUnderground_TV/status/1722926764865843403

Worst guy you know makes a valid point.

Sadly, given Musks alignment with the Right Wing, wouldn't be surprised if one of his anti-Semitic friends put this in his head.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug
1st Shirt: "Make sure you have a will filled out, also, please make sure to go visit the sperm extractor before you head for the door to the plane."

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

psydude posted:

There's literal footage of them cutting open a pregnant woman and throwing her fetus on the ground and stomping on it. Or do you think that's some kind of IDF production as well.

What does this even mean? I don't think anyone in this thread is denying that Israel has far exceeded any kind of reasonable response. But I do see you trying to "So what?" the murder of 1200 civilians.

The problem is the response is Israel Government going: "See? We're not doing that, we're just killing the kids with bombs and in the hospitals and claiming those same hospitals are actually secret underground headquarters for Hamas to justify thousands of children's deaths"

The video is fake.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

psydude posted:

This is correct. But if you go back and reread the posts there was a lot of couched language suggesting that even the non-sensational stuff was made up.

Yes but it feels like you are grasping at straws here, no offense.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug
Israel has a habit of playing both sides of the field so yeah, not exactly the guys you trust without verifying.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Herstory Begins Now posted:

eh makes more sense in the context of just how many completely destroyed cars there are to deal with

(nothing graphic, AP segment on people being allowed back to the cars from the rave that has some drone shots of the scale of what they're dealing with)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1T51_iroHo

You don't normally bury destroyed cars - you scrap them or recycle them. Burying them is unusual.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Proud Christian Mom posted:

I was told Joe was the "harm reduction" choice

For if you live in the US - Yes. For outside the US - No, but Trump won't be reigning in the Israelis either.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Count Roland posted:

Employees of a consulate are civilians. This strike (in Damascus, Iranian consulate, targeting Iranian military dude) was more precise and planned than what they do in Gaza but the tactics are consistent.

Targeting Consulates is pretty frowned upon, I though.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

Count Roland posted:

If I wasn't clear then yes, it sure is. Diplomatic staff that work at consulates are not military targets.

Yeah, that's gotta be spooking some people. If you can just airstrike other countries consulates, then really everything is fair game.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Oh no, won’t someone think of the poor IRGC general and his compatriots.

Consulates - fair game if there's someone you don't like inside.
Embassies hate this one weird trick.

Not defending Iran here, but if violating sovereign space is now the norm because 'there was a baddy inside' we've set an awful, terrible precedent. And given that Israel is bombing hospitals, refugees, and aid workers, maybe now isn't the time to defend them.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug
What a wedding....er, I mean, consulate between a bomb and a bad guy.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

There are no innocent Iranian government workers in Syria. Particularly IRGC-QF generals.

Iran fully backs the Assad regime, and wants to see Israel eliminated.

It’s hilarious how you guys want to get precious over this. To me at least.

Absolutely does not justify bombing a consulate, sorry. Again, given Israel's willingness to drop a bomb through marked hospitals and aid convoys, if even basic international legal agreements are null and void then worse is going to happen.

Israel is more than capable of doing things like robotic drone assassins with machine guns to hit a specific isolated target, yet they needed to bomb a consulate to get this guy? C'mon now.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug

orange juche posted:

The American Right hitched themselves to Israel bringing about the Rapture and Israel will definitely try to do that if they think that the US is abandoning them in the bed Israel made. I don't know exactly how much damage a handful of nukes that Israel probably has would do, but once the cork is out of the bottle, other people are going to start tossing them and then where does that go? Nobody knows

I'd assume they have more than a handful given their signalled willingness to use them in the event Israel fell.

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CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glue is a feature, not a bug
Pillbug
Yeah the discrepancy is Palestine is no longer able to count because there's so many dead that they cannot even reach.

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