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Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

bulletsponge13 posted:

Without confirmation, we should assume so. Considering the IDF isn't broadcasting it, I think it's safe to assume it's bamboo telegraph exaggerations. I hope I am correct, but assume I'm wrong.

This. So much of the public is condemning Hamas, but ignoring the fact both sides of just this conflict are in a Race to the bottom. Many of the same people lamenting those deaths are more than willing to ignore the IAF dropping apartment buildings, mosques, and schools with impunity.

I'm not trying to Whatabout, but the American media ecosystem is largely controlled by the Israeli narrative. We can't condemn one when both teams are playing by the same playbook.

Yeah it absolutely reeks of the kind of non-factual stuff that spreads extremely rapidly during wars and if there was hard evidence of it it's almost unfathomable that IDF would not be making sure every human on earth had seen the evidence. For obvious reasons as just a person I hope it isn't true, but yeah investigators will do their work and we'll know soon enough. to some extent it's substantively pretty immaterial relative to the overall violence of the attack, but also the claim was made so now the claim is getting discussed

idk poo poo is depressing

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Oct 12, 2023

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Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Probably a kind of futile hope, but I hope for absolutely everyone's sake Israel goes less off the deep end than the US did in the aftermath of 9/11

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Radical 90s Wizard posted:

This is the sort of poo poo I honestly don't get. Because yea, any civ deaths are awful, but what do you think is constantly happening in Gaza ?
Fuckin go look at any of the footage on Al Jazeera right now, entire blocks are getting obliterated, and guess what, there's a shitload of civilians in there getting blown apart too.

Israel is outright stating their intention to annihilate Gaza and everyone in it right now(and is actively pursuing that goal), and the idea that that is somehow justified is just hosed to me.

I find it really hard to comprehend the level of moral outrage going on in posts like above, and in the current media narrative, because it so blatantly ignores one entire side of this poo poo. It seems to me to be very clearly saying that Palestinian civilians don't actually matter, and if people try to say otherwise or point it out, they get attacked too.

Gip usually doesn't get like this, and it's mostly not now, thank gently caress. Tbh I dont even know where I was going with this, I guess I'm just struggling to comprehend this entire horrifying clusterfuck. Just dont jump down each others' throats I guess. gently caress.

yeah this is what the israeli air force is posting right now. this poo poo is truly a humanitarian tragedy all around

https://x.com/IAFsite/status/1712484101763342772?s=20

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

mlmp08 posted:

Language like the below doesn't indict militaries effectively or reduce harm. It is the kind of argument that murderers use to justify their actions. "We all do this, it's normal, this is just how it is, oh well. If you didn't want to murder civilians, you shouldn't have joined or been drafted."

Imagine this is your going to war speech:
"Look, we purposefully target and kill civilians. It's what we do. Let's face it, it's what every armed force on the planet does. We all purposefully target and kill civilians. That is normal behavior, and every other leader to your left and right would do it, too. It is normal. It is just how the world works and how war works. So just remember that purposefully targeting and killing civilians is normal and everyone does it. Now, the only morally clean way out is to desert the forces or refuse orders, and if you do that I am prepared to have you formally punished by the state. Now let's go to war."

That's a dogshit message! It is the message that gives cover to murderers and immoral and ethically bankrupt decision-making. It is a message that normalizes killing civilians and disregarding harm to civilians. Even if someone gave that speech with the hope in their heart of hearts that the whole military would lay down their arms and say no, they embrace pacificism, that would be just naÔve and really crappy communication skills.

Even if you believe that any given head of state is willing to engage in practices that have high levels of collateral damage to the point of being indiscriminate or outright targeting civilians, telling military leadership "it is normal to purposefully target and kill civilians" is in practicality a way to increase damage to civilians, not some pacifistic truth-telling that will make everyone lay down their arms and say "drat, makes you think."

You are correct that it is a dogshit message and it is why military messaging and in particular non-military messaging about military actions in times of war always plays up 'we are using precision weapons, we watch out for the innocent, dead civilians are an unfortunate accident' paired with messaging about how the enemy are the real barbarians, they don't care about civilian death and collateral damage, they shell cities indiscriminately, see what they did to the last city they fought over? particularly in democracies you get a particularly stark discrepancy in messaging vs actual actions taken because there's somewhat more pressure to frame military actions as righteous, though even in non-democracies you see the same messaging because it is so massively useful to set the narrative of the war in your favor. Hell, even Russia in Ukraine is messaging that they're using precision weapons against military targets and that Ukraine is the one going ham shelling civilian targets (eg see all the Russian messaging about Ukraine shelling Donetsk, both pre-war and currently). Yes it is farcical, but it's also just how wars get messaged. It also depends a lot on who is actually in charge because militaries very rapidly adapt to the standards of whoever is in charge, as you no doubt are aware. Sponge's 'every officer' line is probably too much of a generalization, maybe every officer over a certain rank, selection pressures wrt advancing in rank past specific points certainly are a thing, but more to the point, all wars lead to piles of dead civilians and if the wellbeing of civilians trumped all other concerns, there'd be virtually no wars because civilians always seem to bear orders of magnitude more of the destruction.

As an aside, I'd argue that the optimistic messaging about how 'our side tries to minimize casualties and we are less indiscriminate in our use of force' is actually quite earnest in most cases and it isn't even innately incompatibly with military action almost invariably having a significant civilian toll. On a related note, virtually everyone messages the former, but there are very genuine and very significant quantitative and qualitative differences in how effectively restraint is applied wrt risk to civilians. eg How many checks are there actually in targeting processes to assess collateral damage to civilians? Do the people planning even care? Are civilian deaths actually investigated? Do the investigations lead to anything? Do they lead to anything against people who are considered particularly useful to their units? How much has sweeping civilian deaths under the rug become an institutional practice? Are deaths in custody really being investigated? Is there any realistic way to apply pressure to partner forces that are harming civilians? Imo for most of those things you need to have a baseline institutional and moral belief that minimizing collateral damage and civilian death matters. You need true believers who will blow the whistle if they see atrocities happening or getting covered up.

Sorry for the long post on this, but I reflect on this stuff every single time a new war breaks out and every time I talk to people about what their service actually entailed. Wars in general get messaged in very predictable ways that, sure, broadly break down into good guys vs bad guys narratives for what are no doubt obvious reasons, but also it does seem to very much matter just how cynical or apathetic the military conducting a war actually is. To tie this all back into the Israel Palestine context, it's incredibly alarming to see the most basic pretense of at least bothering to message that you care about collateral damage and civilians discarded. Invariably that speaks to an internal, institutional culture and when that messaging is coming from the civilian political structure as well, it suggests that there's virtually no external, civil pressure on the military to demonstrate restraint either. The absence of even lip service to restraint has been one of the consistent things in here that people have been reacting to from Israeli leadership.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Oct 14, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

us statement on the strike remains conspicuously non-committal wrt who is repsonsible

https://twitter.com/marquardta/status/1714467357035282848

Handsome Ralph posted:

The theory I saw floated was rocket misfire into an ammo dump. Which, yeah sure, that'd be enough to do it.

I still think it's 95% likely that it was the IDF.

whatever happened it was 0% a rocket landing in an ammo dump [in a courtyard of a hospital packed with people]

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

i am perplexed where the idea that a jdam or a single specific type of palestinian rocket are the only two possibilities even came from

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

psydude posted:

You're correct, but the issue is that nobody in power in the Arab world cared about any of those other things. Hamas' propaganda victory around this specific incident has made it impossible for them to quietly side with Israel against Hamas and makes it more difficult for the US and other countries to pressure Israel into a diplomatic solution.

arab leaders =/= the arab world. hell, lately even arab leaders that have generally been conspicuously silent on the issue for years appear to have remembered to care about the Palestinians a bit again recently. ime of young arabs awareness of Israel and at least some level of resentment towards the 1) Israeli treatment of Palestinians and 2) more or less abandonment of the Palestinian cause by most leaders in the arab world is widespread. imo people confuse a lack of action politically with the issue actually being in any way whatsoever resolved when in reality Israeli treatment of Palestinians remains a huge open wound of an issue. Americans in particular seem to have a really significant blindspot on this particular point.

e: point was already talked about above I see. I should read to the end of the thread before replying

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Oct 19, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

I'm generally strongly an advocate for people reading more al jazeera (both the English and Arabic versions) but in light of that will note that this issue is one of the handful of things that falls squarely within the institutional blind spots of their goals as qatari funded media. Still worth reading, just read it with that in mind. Hell probably more worth reading given how little earnestly pro-Palestinian reporting happens in specifically American media.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

55 actually, the territories have governors too and iirc DC's mayor is considered a governor as well

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

we could place one american governor or congressperson every roughly 12 or 13 square miles and achieve full coverage of Israel and Palestine

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

that would likely be eu laws against disinfo preventing that if anything

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003



(screenshot is from https://www.axios.com/2023/10/24/us-citizens-israel-gaza-lebanon-egypt-jordan)

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

generally the only way people ever face legal consequences for war crimes is if they either lose a war and manage to get captured or if there are laws on their own books against the conduct and the efforts to cover up or conceal the crimes are insufficient. every great once in a while someone gets captured and tried by the other side, but that's exceedingly rare. you also see sanctions against military leadership somewhat regularly, but practically speaking there's either domestic enforcement or there's no enforcement

bulletsponge13 posted:

Well, I would figure the pretty much agreed upon ones the US pretends to follow. They have for years and faced what? Support from the US, a few complaints that are conveniently pushed under the rug, and expansion against their own laws, treaties, and Constitution.

Israel is ignoring every tenet of LOAC on livestream, and no one is doing anything about it. They are admitting to it in press releases and by spokesperson. Not trying to be a doom saying rear end in a top hat, but who os going to push for punishment? The US certainly can't- They were complicit, supportive, currently violating them, and set the rules that ICC doesn't matter; we passed a law authorizing military action if any American is indicted. Russia? Who supported chemical weapons use in Syria, whose tactical prowess is dedicated to ignoring the laws of combat, and is currently violating them?

Who do we expect to hold them accountable when they have the US watching their back?

only way anyone in israel is facing legal consequences is if Israeli laws were followed and/or existed with any amount of teeth. in practice IDF has been extremely consistent about running interference for soldiers that go too far to the extent that they're basically guaranteed to get off. israel's record of prosecutions of soldiers and security forces for crimes against civilians is incredibly poor.

Accountability for Israel's macro level violations (eg the various avenues of collective punishment, really garbage targeting practices, etc.) isn't even a part of the conversation.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Oct 26, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Cugel the Clever posted:

Israel sent a hundred armored vehicles into Jenin in the West Bank and they're tearing up the place. Not entirely clear yet what the ultimate goal is, if any.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/?post_type=liveblog_entry&p=3138831

the goal is pretty clear, it's just unclear what that goal has to do with improving literally anyone's security situation

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

clearly the behind the scenes efforts to reign in israel are working very well and the US's both stated and unstated policy that if you want to get israel to do something don't criticize them in public at all is also proving a resounding success. no doubt it is great comfort to the palestinians getting bombed that they now have internet service again while their loved ones and houses blow up

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

i do very much commend anyone working to get Israel to dial the brutality against civilians back even if I think it's not nearly effective enough. that's got to be some bleak as gently caress work right now

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

pantslesswithwolves posted:

Also no infantry support for the tanks, which makes them incredibly vulnerable to things like this. During the early days of the Syrian civil war, rebels took out a lot of Assadís tanks by putting grenades in the turret barrel or throwing Molotovs on the engine block and then tossing grenades in the hatch when the crew would try to escape. The only thing I can think of in this case is that the Israelis were using tanks as artillery and didnít expect to get engaged at all.

Yeah fuel soaked rugs dropped on top combined with molotovs were eventually the refined version of that method for loving up tanks early on in Syria. First year or so of tank use in Syria was some wild west stuff, they were getting used almost entirely unsupported, beyond sometimes being used in pairs. crews were also super quick to bail out and they lost a lot of tanks before the SAA settling into just using indirect fires as the solution to basically every problem for the next couple of years. Strangely the Russian intervention repeated basically all of the same mistakes and they rapidly got a lot of tanks blown up before adapting by adopting extremely risk averse ttps for their tanks, particularly the later models. There's probably a specific lesson in here about how vulnerable tanks are when you don't respect your opponents and you think that a simple show of force is going to accomplish anything at all. the Houthis also had way, way more success than they should have against KSA tanks with broadly similar tactics that exploited extremely poor crew reactions to contact.

Count Roland posted:

It's crazy that in this modern world getting into bayonet range is a valid tactic for fighting a tank

honestly it's a really, really lovely way to oppose tanks and only works if the tanks are being woefully misused and the people launching the attack are extremely desperate. syria is again a good example where for every video that was made of a successful close-range attack on a tank there were a bunch of failures that ended very unceremoniously. with that said, it is striking that the start of many conflicts will have tanks getting used in extremely reckless ways with little regard for the things that maximize their impact and minimize their vulnerabilities. part of that is the inherent vulnerability of tanks on the move as part of offensives, but a big part of it seems to also be an initial wave of complacency and a very false sense of security, though in most cases that appears to evaporate pretty quickly. Hell in Ukraine it was only a matter of a couple of months before both sides adapted to just staying completely out of the effective range of the other side's tanks and AT weapons.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Nov 3, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

MSF is furious

quote:

"We were standing inside the hospital gate when the ambulance was directly hit in front of us. There were bloody bodies everywhere. Many were killed immediately, while we rushed others to the operating room for emergency care,Ē says Dr Obaid, MSF doctor at Al Shifa hospital."

The deadly attack outside the gate of Al-Shifa hospital impacting an ambulance is horrendous. This is a lethal attack outside Gaza's main and busiest hospital, where our staff work daily to provide lifesaving medical care.

We have repeatedly called for an immediate and total ceasefire, for the protection of healthcare facilities, as well as medics, patients and people who are taking shelter there.

This is a new low in an endless stream of unconscionable violence. The repeated strikes on hospitals, ambulances, densely populated areas and refugee camps are disgraceful. How many people have to die before world leaders wake up and call for a ceasefire?

^From MSF's twitter, which I'm not linking because it has a picture of the aftermath of the ambulance strike

Lebanon-Israeli border appears to be escalating, too, though who knows how far that will go.

In other news, a large number of USAID folks are very unhappy, too.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/11/03/usaid-gaza-cease-fire-israel-airstrike-hamas/

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Nov 4, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

I remain confident that there is zero possible way that the biden administration hitching their foreign policy to netanyahu's judgement and the IDF's restraint could ever backfire spectacularly

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

I'd look at the withdrawal of support for KSA over the war in Yemen as probably the more relevant example and while it can't be compared 1:1 as the US's relationship with Israel is different from that with KSA, but also the plight of Palestinians is generally much more of a thing Americans are aware of than Yemen. Hell, I'm still kind of blown away that Americans ever gave a gently caress about the suffering of civilians in Yemen, but it makes me a tiny bit optimistic, too.

Interestingly Israel generally assesses that their single biggest risk is losing popular American support.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Alchenar posted:

That is... a PG-7R Tandem HEAT round. Or a clone thereof. https://cat-uxo.com/explosive-hazards/rockets/105mm-pg-7r-rocket

According to hamas it is a separate weapon. They appear to just be mass producing that specific shape for their locally produced rounds as both the tandem and the thermobaric apparently use it. To my eye they might be slightly different in shape, though I haven't seen enough good pictures to say and currently we've just got hamas' promotional stuff to go off wrt the latest two models of it and they are extremely selective about what they show. There's some question about just how much it is a clone vs a dressed up pg7v round. the previous iteration was much more apparently not a clone.

Hamas is currently pushing a whole messaging campaign about how effective their homemade rpg rounds are, which is why people are seeing these promo videos popping up everywhere. They're asserting that it can take out merkavas in particular and are claiming for instance that they destroyed 6 tanks with it yesterday, though as of when I looked yesterday there was no documentation of that anywhere to be found

Some words from someone way more knowledgeable about the evolution of the direct precursor to that weapon

https://calibreobscura.substack.com/p/hamas-mysterious-anti-tank-weapon

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

they're all being fired from close range because they have a ~200ft maximum range. hamas claims the range is a bit longer, like another 50-100ft, but idk how much evidence there is for that.

Lum_ posted:

This war in particular has been a complete triumph of propaganda narrative over objective truth, on either side. I don't think we're going to have a truly accurate sense of what happened/is happening for years to come.

idk about triumph, it's just that there's a lot of it more than anything. if anything this has been broadly the most clunky, low-effort poo poo i've ever seen on both sides, albeit hamas has way flashier editing. meanwhile you have Israel turning out milles collines radio tier stuff regularly, too. Speaking from the perspective of an American audience most of the effective pro-palestine stuff isn't hamas' propaganda, it's just the aftermath of Israeli attacks, or, hell, even Israel's own batshit insane statements. I'd also argue that Israel's efforts have been extremely clunky and often are exceptionally tone deaf. They have had a fair amount of success tapping into a bunch of latent (or otherwise) islamophobia. With that said, Israel's efforts do seem to have been way more effective internally. talking to Israelis over the last month has been wild.

on the other hand, maybe I'm being too negative about its effectiveness because it has clearly been very effective at convincing the small handful of people that they actually needed unconditional support from

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Nov 8, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Lum_ posted:

Hamas wins elections when they happen. (They donít happen that often.)

Which Palestinian faction do you expect would take power and protect Jews and other ethnic minorities under its rule?

Hamas might do well initially (and indeed currently has a fair amount of support) but the complete overhaul of the powerstructure and the change in expectations and duties from opposing Israel to fully functioning as an effective part of a larger government + the general level of societal and political change that would rapidly happen in the event of an actual political integration of Palestinians into Israel would probably end up with Hamas either unrecognizable or out of power within a few years. it's such an unlikely outcome that it's almost impossible to even hypothesize how it would go. Groups with a struggle-based identity always end up heavily changed when that foundational struggle ends

PurpleXVI posted:

Why would Hamas necessarily be in charge in a free, presumably multi-party democracy? Hell, as we've seen from a variety of sources, Hamas only has the power it does due to Israeli meddling.

I think 'only' overstates it, but yeah certainly Hamas would not exist in its present form without that context

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Alchenar posted:

Everyone trying to claim that Israel or Hama's always wanted this is completely off the mark. This is a classic case study in uncontrolled escalation: Hamas had catastrophic success in their attack and public sentiment in Israel has shifted so much that the only course the government can take is one of overwhelming retaliation.

Nobody wanted this a month ago but now it is the only possible course.

Yeah I go back and forth on some aspects of how this escalated, particular wrt the aims/results of 10/7. I don't think Hamas expected to collapse an entire sector of Israeli defenses, on the other hand they went after many of the people in charge of that sector, going after many of them at their homes, so they definitely did intend to very heavily disrupt the ability to respond to attacks in that region at minimum. Still I'd be surprised if they expected a runaway success and the total defensive/security collapse that they got. Conversely they no doubt expected a response, but definitely not that Israel would try to completely destroy Gaza city and exterminate Hamas. Just from taking the hostages we can infer that they intended 1) to continue to exist and 2) to trade hostages for concessions and 3) hopefully even trade hostages for Israeli restraint. Hamas might well have expected some kind of Israeli incursion and indeed had been preparing for exactly that for years. With that said, the scale of the barrage Hamas and other groups fired in the opening day was large enough that they knew it would provoke a major response of Israeli strikes.

Between the ground attack and the thousands of rockets fired, there was no way that wasn't going to escalate in a pretty significant way, still I share your feeling that even relative to their intentions the situation really escalated rapidly out of their control

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

I'd briefly missed that feeling of our ME policy being driven by people who know less than nothing about the ME. Cardin has no excuse to not know more. Sullivan knows gently caress all about the ME too and I can't get over that he literally had a massive essay for Foreign Policy about to be published in the Nov issue about how peaceful and quiet the Middle East was when this all popped off.

Granted it was because they'd invaded it, but there was a brief moment there where many people making decisions wrt ME policy had at least been to the region and maybe even knew someone who spoke one of the relevant languages. Sarcasm aside, towards the end of the GWOT I was regularly running into people fresh out of government/military who were often familiar enough with the region that it wasn't embarrassing to hear them talk about the region and a non-trivial amount who really were quite astute and had some real insight and often knew a decent amount of Arabic or Pashto or Dari or Farsi or something.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Nov 23, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

as long as he at least tossed it on to the tank I'm comfortable calling it a missile, even if he only tossed it like 6 inches. if he set it down on there I just can't call it a missile.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Not a lot of places in the world where you can be a 20 year old who has experienced 4 wars.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

CSM posted:

You can go ahead and post those sources claiming Israeli gunships killed the majority of people killed at the Reim music festival.

No clue about the number of people killed by gunships, but the reporting on that refers back to https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000 . Notably there're a bunch of vehicles in multiple areas at the festival that were blown up by something much more energetic than the small arms Hamas was running around with. There were also statements on the first day from at least one helicopter pilot about how hard it was to distinguish civilians from Hamas eg https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hkanmp5w6 .

Who knows wtf happened exactly. Israel has since pushed back against that first piece of reporting and a bunch of other places are pushing that narrative because it is obviously useful to their ends. it's a whole informational clusterfuck now

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Nov 27, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

pmchem posted:

but someone had a picture of closely parked cars that were clearly in a big fire! must've been GUNSHIPS!

wonder if GUNSHIPS also took out these cars related to BIDEN -- can anyone really prove they didn't?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11482881/Five-cars-rented-Bidens-Secret-Service-burst-FLAMES-Nantucket-used-family.html



that's a different level of destroyed from cars simply catching fire

vov

To be clear there's no evidence at all for the 'majority' claims, but there's not much reason to doubt that some friendly fire happened because that's kinda the nature of running a bunch of gunships for a full day (with whatever pilots you happened to have on a holiday) at a time when the regional defense apparatus has collapsed and everything is, to put it lightly, in chaos and there's widespread reports of hamas flooding across the border. How much friendly fire you think happened in that context probably has a lot to do with how much faith you have in helicopter pilots.

Of course you've got the tankiesphere pushing the 'majority of casualties were IDF friendly fire' to muddy everything up even more.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Nov 27, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Good, very long piece from wapo about attitudes inside the WH

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/26/biden-white-house-divisions-israel-gaza

pmchem posted:


in your pic, it looks like the cars were trashed by angry people then set on fire

pretty hard to miss difference in structural damage between the two

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

david_a posted:

I donít think anybody is really doubting that Israel could have killed a lot of their own civilians in their response, but without more rigorous investigative journalism we donít really know.

Are foreign journalists being curtailed inside of Israel? Would they be preventing from interviewing Israelis who might be survivors/witnesses of friendly fire incidents? I donít know anything about how free the press was before or after October 7 in Israel.

Reporters without Borders ranks Israel 88th in press freedoms, putting it behind Albania and just ahead of Central African Republic and Haiti.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

eh makes more sense in the context of just how many completely destroyed cars there are to deal with

(nothing graphic, AP segment on people being allowed back to the cars from the rave that has some drone shots of the scale of what they're dealing with)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1T51_iroHo

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Nov 30, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

CommieGIR posted:

You don't normally bury destroyed cars - you scrap them or recycle them. Burying them is unusual.

According to articles on it, they're going to shred them individually to save space, better explanation here. Impetus is primarily religious, but also on a practical level what else are you going to do with them.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-774511

E: I give the IDF zero benefit of the doubt generally, but I do think the question of what number or percent of people were victims of friendly fire is substantively immaterial. It is a pertinent question from the perspective of wanting to understand what transpired that day, but as far as responsibility for what happened on 10/7, it doesn't change anything. If you launch an attack with the specific intention of creating a huge amount of chaos and you succeed and in that chaos even more people are killed, you're every bit as on the hook for that as if you killed them yourself.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Nov 30, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Israel Knew Hamasís Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html (heads up: has one pic of two sheets over bodies and another of a hamas captive)

Someone posted an unlocked copy of that in the D&D thread or you can pop it into archive.is Also comes on the heels of reporting to that effect over the last week, eg https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...nd-were-ignored

There's also been anumber of leaks supposedly from unit 8200 over the last couple of weeks, but idk enough to judge how credible those are.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Dec 1, 2023

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Very interesting, quite long piece of reporting from the guardian about how the Israeli invasion has had its messaging heavily massaged at CNN

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/feb/04/cnn-staff-pro-israel-bias

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Currently it's about an Argentine dirty war (which lasted the better part of a decade) in about 4 months.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Quibbling over proxy as a specific term rather misses the point of the way Iran has endeavored to build and project power throughout the region by building up a network of aligned military and paramilitary forces that, while independent of Iran, are also heavily linked to Iran, in Iran's debt, and generally dependent on Iran for advanced capabilities and equipment to the extent that Iran's leverage is unmistakeable. That said, Iran's diplomatic tact has been more to emphasize common interest than to compel action and Iran and the Houthis have significant common interests and adversaries. Whatever you want to call it, Iran and the Houthis are very closely linked and they're one of many groups whose position is strengthened when Iran's position is strengthened.

As an aside, Iran's regional policy is generally way more effective than Americans tend to give it credit for.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Mar 26, 2024

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

mlmp08 posted:

I could have been more precise with "generally," but the mission is protected. No, it doesn't mean that once you give up land for an embassy to the sending, they can just hot-swap it for a SAM site or something and go "nuh uh, it's my land now," but striking an embassy or consulate is decidedly different from striking military officials on land that is not associated with a diplomatic mission.

M_Gargantua posted:

Thats a lot of hairs to split to claim its ok.

Its not ok though.


Yeah there's exactly zero ambiguity wrt the norms surrounding whether or not you can just blow up consulates.

Dopilsya posted:

I think the answer is that it is indeed an act of war in addition to being a violation of treaties that Israel has signed, against both Syria and Iran. Legally they are justified in responding appropriately (by which I mean within the laws of war) as they have the right of self defense.

This particular attack isn't "cart blanche", there's still limits on use of force that exists. I think you could make a good argument that the attacks on Iranians (scientists and the like) predating the current attack opens up what would be a justified response on the part of the Iranian govt though.

Current attack is certainly remarkable as a significant escalation, a significant violation of norms (how much that matters is very hard to quantify tho), and probably most importantly: Iran will absolutely retaliate for it, likely both in the short and long term.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 2, 2024

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

In just 7 months Israel has killed significantly more people than the Contras did during the entire, bloody Nicaraguan civil war or the ruling junta did during the Argentine dirty war. Both of those lasted around a decade. The rate of killing in Palestine is insanely high.

Or, for a more recent comparison, the Palestinian death-toll is similar to Ukrainian civilian deaths over 26 months of warfare.

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Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003

Estimates range from twenty something thousand to well into thirty thousand. There isn't actually a huge discrepancy between Israeli claims and Palestinian health authorities. Even by the Israeli numbers it's an exceptionally deadly conflict for civilians.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:57 on May 6, 2024

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