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Stultus Maximus posted:and the Arabs who read Protocols unironically (and there are lots) will never believe it isn’t a Jewish plot. Lovely Joe Stalin posted:And why did you feel the need to smear Palestinians in that particular way? The Hamas Charter literally quotes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Mahmoud Abbas has made Holocaust denial his scholarly lifetime work. A bent towards conspiracy theories among the Palestinian leadership is well documented. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2023 11:30
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Proud Christian Mom posted:And because of this Israel can do a little ethnic cleansing, as a treat? why yes, pointing out anything wrong some nationality has done justifies ethnic cleansing and genocide, you cracked the code
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Oct 21, 2023 13:01
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Lum_ posted:A bent towards conspiracy theories among the Palestinian leadership is well documented. FrozenVent posted:Don't say racist poo poo, if you're going to make comments about commonly held beliefs in a community without some solid sources I'm going to assume you're saying racist poo poo. I would normally let this pass but given an IK just put a "don't post racist poo poo" note on my profile, this makes me unhappy for some reason! So, sources: Lum_ posted:The Hamas Charter literally quotes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Hamas Covenant: https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm quote:For Zionist scheming has no end, and after Palestine they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates. Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the the best proof of what is said there. (ok, so it doesn't quote from it, it merely cites it as proof. so much better.) Lum_ posted:Mahmoud Abbas has made Holocaust denial his scholarly lifetime work. Abbas' PhD thesis: The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism quote:Abbas' Holocaust revisionism [in his thesis] does not deny that the Holocaust happened or that it is one of the worst crimes in history. The question he raises is who is guilty of this crime and that blaming the Nazis is only "half the truth". According to Abbas, the Zionists collaborated in killing a large number of European Jews in order to encourage the rest to embrace Zionism and emigrate to Palestine. From a recent speech this year: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/07/palestinian-president-condemned-mahmoud-abbas-holocaust-remarks quote:Palestine’s president has drawn angry condemnation from US, German and Israeli officials for comments in which he suggested that Nazi Germany had murdered 6 million Jews during the Holocaust for their “social role” as money lenders, not because they were Jewish. Note: I am *not* asserting that all Arabs are anti-semitic, or that this justifies what's currently happening in Gaza, or indeed that there isn't a deep undercurrent of Islamophobia and anti-Arab racism in Israeli discourse (there absolutely is). I merely responded to another poster who expressed disbelief that the Palestinian leadership indulged in conspiracy theories. As shown above, this is not "saying racist poo poo", it's recounting documented fact. Yes, I am mad online, please put in the papers that I am mad.
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Oct 22, 2023 00:30
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I was fine with a 6 hour break (I spent it drinking and killing demons) and to be fair he didn't literally put "don't put racist poo poo" on my rap sheet, but the implication is pretty clear. Plus I'm mad online.Kchama posted:Stealing my bit, you should be ashamed! ...dril? is that you? https://twitter.com/dril/status/549425182767861760?lang=en
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Oct 22, 2023 01:24
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yeah, not a surprise with the Iraqi militias starting to get noisy. remains to be seen if hezbollah (and by direct extension iran) are rational enough to be deterred or if they even believe the implicit US threat to jump in.
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Oct 22, 2023 16:34
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Judging from the pictures taken after their release, they both probably have serious health conditions that Hamas was in no way ready to deal with what with their hospitals under bombardment and running out of supplies. Hamas claims they've been trying to release them since Saturday and Israel has been ignoring them. The hostage release Israel torpedoed was a larger release of all hostages with foreign passports (50) and Israel refused to permit any fuel to enter Gaza which was one of the demands. As for why they're doing this - the US and other negotiators are trying to get Israel to delay the ground offensive while negotiations for hostage releases continue.
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Oct 24, 2023 00:47
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Count Roland posted:Someone asked for a source above and I'll copy that. What constitutes a suspicious number of non-violent activists? In Gaza I'm going to assume there's a relatively large number of activists, and they're currently getting bombed into the ground with thousands already killed. I assume most are civilians. Are all of these "targeted" strikes? How does one tell what is targeted and what is not? Israel's already said they're being far looser with targeting this war. The reasons vary depending on who you ask (no time for planning adequate pinpoint bombing / hamas is embedded in civilian infrastructure anyway / they know what they did and we're going to flatten everything to the ground) but no one in Israel is seriously disputing that civilians are being hit. Their response is that the entirety of North Gaza has been declared a free-fire zone and if anyone's still there it's their fault (or Hamas' fault for not letting them leave). And yes, that is a pretty open-and-shut case of a war crime. As for if Israel specifically targeted AJ journalists or journalists in general, I seriously doubt they have enough intel and free airpower to divert it to whacking reporters. Occam's Razor suggests it's far more likely that Israel is just being extremely free with bombardments and journalists are being caught just like everyone else in the area. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 17:39
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Count Roland posted:Well yes obviously civilians are being bombed in large numbers, yes that's a warcrime. I edited my post to address my thought on that but I'll add that Israel's actual response to AJ's reporting is to ban them from the country. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769432
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Oct 28, 2023 17:44
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Laughing Zealot posted:It can't be a good sign for the Israeli army that they've barely started to operate in Gaza and already there are 17 soldiers dead. 11 of those were in one APC that got hit with an ATGM. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/fifteen-israeli-soldiers-killed-as-fighting-intensifies-in-gaza Israel is being *extremely* careful trying to avoid IDF casualties, which is one reason Gaza City is essentially one large free-fire zone. But as that APC strike shows, it's not something you can easily avoid. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:52
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Hamas right now firing pretty much everything they have left, could have decided it was use it or lose it https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1720895252171461117
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Nov 4, 2023 21:13
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PittTheElder posted:Yeah my guess is there's no way to a non-genocidal end to the conflict without the US and the other major powers buying into some version of BDS. That is such a non-starter politically in the US there are literally some state laws prohibiting BDS-style boycotts of Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws#Anti-BDS_laws_in_the_United_States
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Nov 5, 2023 03:13
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notwithoutmyanus posted:What kind of garbage is this? Is this like a worse attempt at satire? At least Onion has some good stuff. Eretz Nehederet is Israel's version of Saturday Night Live, so the heavy handed "humor" is on them as a private entity, even if the official Israel twitter is pushing it. Remember SNL did this back in the day. https://twitter.com/queeralamode/status/1426990554584256512 They're usually more left leaning (this is a Springtime for Hitler parody of Itamar Ben Gvir, Israel's most popular fascist politician) so I guess the war is breaking brains. https://twitter.com/Eretz_Nehederet/status/1572687851854102529 Lum_ fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 6, 2023 |
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Nov 6, 2023 18:34
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Alchenar posted:Okay well war-aims defined - Netanyahu plumbing for full re-occupation. Pretty sure the goal is for the Palestinian Authority or a similar cut-out to have "governing responsibility" in Gaza while being disarmed and with Israel having the ability to go in and arrest whomever they want at will. That's been the situation in PA-run areas of the West Bank for the past 20 years. Technically not occupation since IDF troops aren't posted there full time, but far from anything approaching sovereignity. Israel doesn't WANT Gaza. It's a trashed enclave with no natural resources and 2 million people who very much do not want to be compliant Israeli citizens. There are some extremist/religious fundamenalist nutbags who want to annex and re-settle Gaza because it's another step in Eretz Israel annexing God's gifted land to the chosen people aka Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Iraq, but they are a (loud) minority. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Nov 7, 2023 |
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Nov 7, 2023 16:46
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PurpleXVI posted:Considering how few votes "let's not oppress the Palestinians and maybe give them back some of their stuff"-parties get in Israel, I think that "half" is an overly generous split. The political split in Israel is roughly: 8%: anti-Zionist leftists/Israeli Arabs/Palestinians (note this is voting results, not actual population, the Israeli Arab minority is more like 20%) 7%: pro-Zionist leftists (the aftermath of Oslo and the intifadas effectively destroyed them as a political force) 32%: Centrists (happy with the status quo, might agree that a two-state solution is the ideal but "no one on the Palestinian side will talk to us!") 28%: Right-wingers (generally OK with the status quo, most want some form of annexation in the West Bank) 11%: Fascists (the argument here is "should Palestinians be forced to leave or simply killed") 14%: Ultra-orthodox (don't care about any of this as long as they get paid, have been losing votes to the fascist parties) This is from last year's election. Polls indicate that if an election were held tomorrow Benny Gantz' centrist party would win in a landslide, which is why there won't be an election tomorrow.
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Nov 7, 2023 16:58
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Cugel the Clever posted:Important distinction: Israel doesn't want the Palestinians in Gaza. At the end of the day, the Israeli PM may just take a page from their founding father's playbook. Yitzahk Rabin's memoirs retell how, when asked how the nascent IDF should handle several troublesome Palestinian towns, the legendary Ben-Gurion refrained from saying anything explicitly, but made a gesture that unmistakably conveyed ethnic cleansing—a cleansing that was carried out and erased from Israeli history books. No, most Israelis really don't want Gaza period. The ex-settlers who want to go back to their ex-homes are a tiny minority, most Israelis were quite happy with Gaza stuck behind a big wall and no longer existing in their world. If Egypt would take it Israel would give them Gaza in a heartbeat but Egypt doesn't want the place either. There have been people in Israel talking about ethnic cleansing Gazans into Egypt (such as the leaked document from the "Intelligence Ministry" which isn't Shin Bet/Mossad but a sinecure dreamed up to keep a Likud member busy that has no impact on actual decision-making) but again, Egypt very much isn't going to cooperate. Benny Gantz, who effectively is running the war, yesterday told an Israeli from the border region who asked "will I see the ocean from my house when the war is over" explicitly no, at the end of the day there will still be a Gaza with Gazans in it. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Nov 7, 2023 |
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Nov 7, 2023 17:08
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PurpleXVI posted:looted by settlers Curious who you think is looting bombed out ruins in a very active urban war zone.
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Nov 7, 2023 18:55
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PurpleXVI posted:I'm trying to track it down, but not long after the start of the fighting there were some videos of Israeli settlers looting Palestinian farms(even to the extent of stripping the olive trees, what the gently caress) after the Palestinians had cleared out to not get caught in the fighting, and when they hadn't cleared out, shooting anyone who objected. It's almost certainly from the West Bank, where hilltop youth (extremist far right/religious fundamentalist maniac settlers) have been trying to start a second war with the Palestinians since the war started. Stripping olive trees in the West Bank is a common settler tactic; it takes away the Palestinian's means of supporting themselves and encourages them to leave. AKA ethnic cleansing. The thought of civilians looting Gaza (or that Gaza even has anything to loot at this point other then piles of rubble) is ridiculous. Count Roland posted:Settlers making small raids like this into Palestinian farms is pretty normal in this conflict (as are Palestinian raids). This sort of thing is kinda par for the course when it comes to neighbors conflicting over land. In the West Bank, yes. Before 10/7 Gaza was entirely closed off by large walls, and after 10/7 the IDF has made the entire area surrounding Gaza in Israel a military exclusion zone. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Nov 7, 2023 |
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Nov 7, 2023 20:40
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They've also had commanders quoted as saying the only differences between them and Guderian's Wehrmacht are that they won't persecute Jews and they won't lose.
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Nov 8, 2023 00:40
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The quote I'm thinking of dates from decades back and I don't have a link handy, sorry. Tried searching but Google is pretty useless what with the current war. I think it was James Dunnigan (the wargame designer) who quoted it.
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Nov 8, 2023 03:52
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Tiny posted:"Your average isreali highschool kid, after passing the history class unit on the Holocaust, either thinks "This must never happen again", or "this must never happen again TO US". The folks who think the latter is OK seem to be the isreali equivalant of MAGA folks. Trump is extremely popular in Israel.  "Netanyahu - In Another League". Campaign poster playing up his personal connection to Trump (there's another one with Putin, which also didn't age well.) So "Israeli MAGA folks" are in fact the majority, and yes, they are pretty much of the "Never Again (to us)" variety. Especially after 10/7, Gazans aren't seen as innocent, or even human; referring to them as "animals" in government statements has been depressingly common. Yoav Gallant, defense minister posted:We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly. Itamar Ben-Gvir, national security minister posted:We must have zero tolerance towards the Nukhba (Hamas POW) prisoners who are being imprisoned now. Treat them with as much force as it is possible to treat these human animals. (note that in Hebrew, "human animals" (chayot adam) is frequently used to describe criminals and isn't *quite* as genocidal as it sounds in translation. It's still bad.) Ron Prosor, ambassador to Germany posted:This is civilization against barbarity. This is good against bad. This is people who basically act as animals and do not have any, any respect for children, women. Netanyahu posted:Any place Hamas deploys, in this evil city, all the places Hamas is hiding, operating — we will turn it into a ruin. With rhetoric like this being tossed around, it's hardly a wonder that the IDF isn't terribly concerned about the civilian body count.
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Nov 8, 2023 07:50
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ZombieApostate posted:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean It's a call for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish ethnostate. How you feel about that depends on how you feel about the chances of Jewish Israelis living in a majority-ruled Palestinian state. Most Jewish Israelis would tell you "not great". After the events of October 7, considerably fewer Jewish Israelis believe living in a multi-ethnic state is possible. A good breakdown of the debate on academia about this, from a historian who disagrees with the concept of Israel as "settler colonialist": https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/ Paywall-free: https://archive.li/kc7nB quote:If the “settler-colonist” narrative is not true, it is true that the conflict is the result of the brutal rivalry and battle for land between two ethnic groups, both with rightful claims to live there. As more Jews moved to the region, the Palestinian Arabs, who had lived there for centuries and were the clear majority, felt threatened by these immigrants. The Palestinian claim to the land is not in doubt, nor is the authenticity of their history, nor their legitimate claim to their own state. But initially the Jewish migrants did not aspire to a state, merely to live and farm in the vague “homeland.” In 1918, the Zionist leader Chaim Weizmann met the Hashemite Prince Faisal Bin Hussein to discuss the Jews living under his rule as king of greater Syria. The conflict today was not inevitable. It became so as the communities refused to share and coexist, and then resorted to arms.
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Nov 8, 2023 18:23
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This war in particular has been a complete triumph of propaganda narrative over objective truth, on either side. I don't think we're going to have a truly accurate sense of what happened/is happening for years to come.
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Nov 8, 2023 18:34
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PookBear posted:What are your ideas on rhodesia ZANU wasn't literally genocidal towards white settlers in its charter, so your attempted "sick burn" misfired, sorry.
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Nov 8, 2023 19:04
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PookBear posted:So to be clear, you are in favor of ethnostates? Not at all. I'm anti-genocide, which means I think both sides in this war have a lot of 'splaining to do. I also think demanding Israel disband itself and gently caress off to Europe is genocide/ethnic cleansing by another name.
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Nov 8, 2023 19:07
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if only there was some possible end state to ths conflict that didn't involve the total annihilation of the other side. oh well, nothing for it, guess you got to pick a flag and kill everyone waving the other one. If anything's radicalized me this war it's how the left has swiftly in less than a month moved from glee at Hamas' slaughter to outright denying it ever happened, 9/11 style. Roger Waters and Glenn Greenwald this week was a good example. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/roger-waters-false-flag-claim-hamas-attack-1234871588/
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Nov 8, 2023 19:13
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PookBear posted:what in the gently caress are you talking about. You're equating Israel no longer being an ethno state as being the same result as forcing them out of Israel. If Israel became a multi ethnic state tomorrow, the majority would still be jewish. If the West Bank, Gaza and the Palestinian diaspora were included, no, there would no longer be a Jewish majority. Also, part of the "dismantling the settler colonialist narrative" in the academic left does indeed include displacing Jewish "settlements" such as Tel Aviv and Haifa. Palestinian voices on the subject are far more explicit regarding their intentions. For example, it's illegal for Jews to own property in the PA-controlled West Bank. Most Palestinian groups are just as ethno-centric as the most Kahanist Israeli. If you seriously want to know my opinion, it's that a multi-ethnic state is the platonic moral idea, and unattainable for generations thanks to the bad blood on every side, and a two-state solution with viable borders for both sides (as opposed to the apartheid land grab of the current government) is the only realistic moral option. I strongly suspect you don't care and are just trolling, though. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Nov 8, 2023 |
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Nov 8, 2023 19:21
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Vahakyla posted:Gaza and West Bank don’t get voting rights exactly because they’d change the fundamental political landscape. It wouldn’t be enough for total rule, but it would be a huge swing in any case in the Knesset. Thus the apartheid implementation of forcing Palestinian "citizenship" in powerless cantons while Israeli settlers grab all the actual worthwhile land. Terming Israel an apartheid state is valid given they're precisely following the South African bantustan model.
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Nov 8, 2023 19:29
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psydude posted:While it's different in a lot of ways, maybe something similar to the Northern Ireland peace process? The establishment of Gaza and the West Bank as a sovereign state (or something close to it), disarmament of militant groups on both sides, and the acknowledgement of the right to be Israeli or Palestinian and the right to live in each other's territories? Yeah, something like this is the only way to resolve the conflict. Right now both sides are insisting on Total Unconditional Surrender which to put it mildly is unrealistic and ensures the war will continue for generations.
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Nov 8, 2023 20:07
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PookBear posted:putting the words of Roger Waters and Glenn Greenwald into my mouth, and then try to say I'm trolling. Surprisingly, not every one of my posts is about you!
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Nov 8, 2023 20:31
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PookBear posted:You're using the Palestinian diaspora skewing the the ethnic make up of a multi ethnic state to justify the current status quo of Israel being an ethno state while ignoring the historic jewish diaspora. The Palestinian right of return has been an issue in I/P negotiations for 50 years now. And unlike the Jewish diaspora, the majority of Palestinians are still refugees with limited to no rights whatsoever in their host countries. There is no solution the Palestinian side will agree to that does not take their fate into account, and justifiably so. Regardless, demanding Israel cease being a Jewish state isn't dependent on polling numbers, most Jews in Israel see it as existential. They don't see living under Hamas rule as an option for some reason. Can you guess why? Lum_ fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Nov 8, 2023 |
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Nov 8, 2023 20:32
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PurpleXVI posted:Why would Hamas necessarily be in charge in a free, presumably multi-party democracy? Hell, as we've seen from a variety of sources, Hamas only has the power it does due to Israeli meddling. Hamas wins elections when they happen. (They don’t happen that often.) Which Palestinian faction do you expect would take power and protect Jews and other ethnic minorities under its rule?
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Nov 8, 2023 23:01
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lightpole posted:I thought Hamas took control of Gaza from Fatah by force, and now all aid, or what there is, goes through them. They are in control through force, not because they are legitimately elected no? Not that there's been any chance at nurturing Palistinian democracy or doing any state building as Isreal would not allow it. So we really have no idea. Hamas won the one election in Gaza held after the PA’s establishment. Fatah refused to cede power and Hamas then took over by force. I’m not sure why it’s seen as unthinkable that Israelis would be averse to living in a multi-ethnic state given that the whole reason given for its founding is to protect Jews from annihilation. Given that Hamas just did a pretty good job of annihilating people for the few hours they had control over majority-Jewish areas, that’s going to be an even harder sell for a while. Again, I personally would love to see a non-sectarian state in Israel/Palestine, but literally almost no one actually in the area supports that, they want total victory and Jewish supremacy/an Islamic state. The non-Zionist left in Israel gets almost no votes outside the Arab minority, and polling among Palestinians in the West Bank indicates the most hard line extreme factions are the only ones with popular support (*no one* supports Fatah any more due to its complicity with the occupation). There’s no Nelson Mandela willing to get everyone to work towards coexistence, just a lot of people with grudges going back decades or centuries. Thus, demanding this be solved by Israel ceding power to a multi-ethnic Palestine “from the river to the sea” is magical thinking at best, and willingness to ignore what happens immediately afterwards at worst.
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Nov 8, 2023 23:31
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Yes, war is bad. Israel is exceptionally disproportionate in its response and is pretty consistent in its ignoring various LOAC, but war is by its very nature a disproportionate response. You don't stop shooting when the kill count hits a certain point to make things fair. If things have devolved to war, everything has already failed and people are dying. Again, this is bad. Speaking of war, the US just bombed an IRGC weapons depot in Syria. https://apnews.com/article/syria-iran-airstrikes-attack-bases-5be245a2927334ad0d78b8ec35fa55b7 Lum_ fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 00:35
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Lum, i think you're overstating the hostility of Palestinians, tbh. Polling in the West Bank consistently shows a rejection of the two-state solution, and support for armed resistance. From September of this year: https://pcpsr.org/en/node/955 quote:76% believe Israel does not implement the Oslo Accords; 49% believe the PA does not implement the Oslo Accords Google Jeb Bush posted:there's also nobody worth mentioning with grudges going back centuries plural, it's been less than a century since ww2 Aside from the Jews disagreeing with you on that, the Crusades are still a point of contention in the region. You vastly underestimate the Middle East's capacity for grudge-holding.
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Nov 9, 2023 02:52
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Classy grief avatar. Not a fan. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 9, 2023 02:53
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