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Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Illusionis posted:

After considering the claims ##vote Yuming, still considering Cube though, it's a little convenient that his claim both explains the result, provides a reason his vig will never trigger and a reason for him to stay safe from night kills all game.

I just cannot read Yuming as anything other than Town, and don't really get the argument against? Can you explain?

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Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
Also to clarify, Keats has been low content, doing little more than saying "yes, me too" or making random accusations then backing off the moment he's asked for further comment(or doubling down and insisting that asking for further comment is somehow scum, but then also getting mad when nobody engages, as if that's not a transparently lose/lose that stands only to make him seem more legitimate regardless)

What are the odds of a Jester, now that I think about it?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Johnny Keats posted:

He has posts, doesn't he?

"Make my case for me, so I'm not to blame later when it's wrong"

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
I find it tough to get a real read on Opop or Sandwolf because of their apparent beef making things less clear to me. By and large though, I have reason to believe his implications of being a doctor, so I'm inclined to give his arguments a bit more weight, plus he's been contributing content and having arguments and opinions of his own, which maybe I get too hung up on, but more information and more stated opinions and thoughts are broadly good for town and bad for scum, so I find silence, or regurgitating other people's opinions, one of the most suspicious things

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
I agree about Illu, I think both Illu and yuming feel pretty town right now. I don't agree with the amount of focus being put into Keat's opinions on the codes, though that's mostly because I think it's a null tell(It feels equally likely to be a town, scum, or just a personal grievance motivation, so it feels like a waste to me to stare at it to try and make an answer happen)

I do think silence and non-contribution are indicators, though, which is why Keats stays on my list next to TM

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

fool of sound posted:

I suspect we have lurking scum somewhere in TMor, Hal, or Nutsack but I don't really have a strong enough feeling to hazard a guess on them.

I keep forgetting about Hal while listing people who aren't contributing, which I suppose could be a sign of it working?

Nutsack though I'd at least say has contributed more than the other two? He's read as Null to me thus far.

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Tired Moritz posted:

Should we be wondering why we got no deaths

I mean. I don't think the answer is "Scum decided to just...not"

The question is, though, with Madness, do we have more than one doc, was it a BP, or does the doc get to be confident that whoever they targeted last night was, in fact, Town? Long story short, I don't think this is a really useful line of reasoning to drill down on until we have more information

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
Well, outside of being a case study on why coded messages are frequently not permitted, which I don't think we need to keep going over(At the very least it isn't helpful for us and it's cruel to mods if nothing else) I think there IS some useful information to be had in people's reactions here. People staying out of it entirely with a history of being quiet in general (Hal) raises my suspicions a little bit, as does someone who just keeps asking people to make hard claims(Keats).

Spork's reactions to things have read as very Town to me, at this stage at least, and I think it pretty likely yuming and nutsack are town as well, given that 'scum messenger' would be a wild role to have. Not impossible, sure, but I don't think it's likely, just like I don't think scum seer is particularly likely after that was explained to me.

Cube outing what was a largely uneventful message feels off to me. Sure the information itself is kinda nothing, but it does go a long way to confirming town status on those involved, which I've always felt does more to benefit scum in some ways. Once someone is confirmed townie, they're a very safe night target that doesn't get us any information. This isn't enough to be suspect on its own but with everything else, I'm definitely starting to see a case for Cube.


Illusionis posted:

He did, though if you're thinking townclear, I agree with this sentiment that it's a pretty quick assumption to make, when there's a number of other possibilities that could account for the missing kill

What do you think of the like. Soft claim Opop made of "If I was doc and protected someone, it would have been Spork"?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

CubicalSucrose posted:

I first revealed "hey that thing you might still sillily think is secure is NOT" (and used coded words Successful and Response).

Then it seemed Yuming still had doubts and I wasn't interested in going back and forth a dozen times, so I did the whole thing. Which doesn't seem to have leaked TOO much info, and scum could've had this already.

I did hesitate a little bit because like, Keats and JS and (other scum members) in Previously On were also pretty hesitant to do any outside-the-game work.

I think it's a little strange that Yuming and Space are linked, Space claimed to message Keats, and Keats claimed to have attempted to visit Yuming.

That could either be a triangle of coincidence or maybe SB's message had extra detail / suggestion.

It helps explain Keats' earlier scumread on SB, I suppose. Hmm.

When did I claim to message Keats?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
I'd be comfortable with Hal, TM, Keats or Cube at this stage.

Not sure if I've said it, but FoS raised a very valid point that Cube's claim is just about TOO good.

With regard to Illu, I'd be curious if they're willing to answer this question: Who did you target last night?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

It will clarify the honesty of at least one, if not two, other claims for me, hopefully without outing anyone too much in the process

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Illusionis posted:

I don't really see a reason to and this is absolutely not an invitation to reveal more, because I think depending on who is scum or not we have already given scum uncomfortably much information on night actions

That's fine and agreed. Even if only half of them are true I think there were WAY too many claims already made today

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
I'm fine with a Cube vote, at this stage, but that will put us one off of hammer and I'd rather get use out of the remaining 3.5 hours, if possible.

Nothing has really changed by stances, though, and I stand by what I've said. TM, Keats, Cube and Hal all give me bad feelings for stated reasons, though Hal is the closest to 'neutral' of the three

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Opopanax posted:

Regardless of anything I think we should kill Moritz tomorrow for popping in less than an hour to deadline and not voting anyone at all

I've been saying this for most of D2.


CubicalSucrose posted:

Interesting. What was SB's thing?



I had assumed that was a Watch, but now probably isn't? Maybe they're a second Tracker? Interesting.

It's on the strange side, but I'd rather not give more info than I have to, hence asking what questions I did.






With that all said, and not much time on the clock, ##vote: Cube. I disagree with basically all of his reads, and ultimately I'm extremely confident in both Illu and yuming being town now, and none of my other suspicions are even close to the chopping block, so Cube it is

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Nutsack Rangoon posted:

Wanna hear tracker/watcher results. Pretty skeptical that town would get both of those + ecco cop. I'm still certain on Keats. There's no townie reasoning to be misleading the thread like he was.

I'm neither Tracker nor Watcher, but regardless, I was blocked, or my target was 'protected'(We've got weird roles in this one so I wont eliminate that possibility) so I have nothing from last night outside of that


yuming posted:

##vote Illu

I don't see this anymore, especially given that he's trying to call out the people who went to Opop last night, which is information that there are only Town reasons for volunteering


fool of sound posted:

Yeah money on keats as scum here. Also I tracked spork to tmor last night

Agreed. ##Vote: Keats

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
Ninja would be an exceptionally rude addition considering Fancy's role of Eavesdropper, which when combined with a Tracker and Watcher, if all true, means that you've got three roles that can't really trust any of their information.

Additionally, ##unvote. Keats is feeling like a less safe choice now that Sand's results are in question.

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Nutsack Rangoon posted:

I think I'm in favor of a full claim at this point.

N1 NK was prevented by either Opop saving Spork (and there's a ninja if Illu's honest) or by Spork jailing target/NKer. If there's a ninja, I don't think it makes sense for Hal to make the NK unless maybe ninja got jailed and maf team was scared of it happening again?

Yeah, I was considering just laying cards on the table, and I think I'm going to.

I was Vanilla to start with, but I get to take the Role of whoever is the first Town aligned player to die, so I've had Fancy's Eavesdrop ability since N1, when I listened in on Illu, who successfully watched SOMEBODY be visited by Opop. Last night I tried to watch Keats, but was blocked.

Considering we've got a jailer who was told their jailing was successful, but their target claims to have succeeded in their action, do we suppose there's a busser in play?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Hal Incandenza posted:

What did I miss that makes Sandwolfs result questionable

I had no reason to distrust eccocop because I couldn't think of any other way that Sandwolf would have gotten the results they did on Cube. Now that it's been pointed out that a rolecop scum could set up a very trustworthy circumstance this way, I'm no longer confident enough in either possibility to have my vote on anyone at this juncture

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Sandwolf posted:

You went from not knowing what an eccocop is to this kind of nuanced opinion on how fake-able it is?

Having no opinion at all isn't a good option, so I'm rolling the dice on being wrong. Do you have a point here, though? All I said was "I don't know which thing is true, and I have reasonable doubt each way"

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

fool of sound posted:

I still think the straightforward interpretation of event is that Keats is caught by eccocop results and decided to blather about masonry nonsense to throw off discussion about that.

I cannot tell if it's a misdirect, or he just has a bug up his rear end, and it DOES seem like bugs get up there easily based on behavior this game.

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

fool of sound posted:

I still think the straightforward interpretation of event is that Keats is caught by eccocop results and decided to blather about masonry nonsense to throw off discussion about that.

Also the first result is kind of a wash due to Cube having been exactly what he claimed to be. The second results are the only potentially useful ones.

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Tired Moritz posted:

Yeah why are we just ignoring FoS anyway

The breadcrumbed Tracker role, and proof that they've gotten tracker information in the past. The chances of a Scum Tracker don't seem very high, but you're right that it should at least be considered

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Sandwolf posted:

And if this is true why didn’t you bring it up D1?

You can't claimed on D1, D2 was the soonest this would be reasonable. That said, why did he bring it up D2

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Sandwolf posted:

##vote Illu

You figure they're Scum Watcher, then?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Hal Incandenza posted:

Or they lied outright. But scum watcher seems like it could be reasonable

Keep in mind, I eavesdropped on them, and got their watcher results, so for their claim to be a lie, it would need to be both them and me lying. Scum watcher was my original thought, I admit, way back when I was super suspicious of them(hence eavesdropping on them in the first place) and was asking how common that kind of 'soft investigate' role was for scum

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

SporkChan posted:

Hold up. You said you were blocked on N2? How are you confirming Illu's watch results then?

N1, I got their results of watching Opop move in on someone. I know know who Opop visited, but Eavesdrop gives me the results that Illu got, so I know it's a Watch of some sort

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Nutsack Rangoon posted:

I want to hear from Moritz and I'm still very curious about Spacebanito's claim that he got roleblocked trying to listen to Keats.

Either I got blocked, or Keats got protected in a way that prevents all Night Actions. I think blocking makes more sense.

This is why I'm curious if there's a busser or something, because the person the Jailer claims to have Jailed got their NA off, allegedly, but I didn't, so a Busser swapping the two of us around is possible?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Nutsack Rangoon posted:

Speaking of is this:

how it was messaged to you?

No, what I got was an exact copy of what Illu got. So it told me "I" successfully watched my target, and then that "I" saw Opop visiting my target. Obviously it wasn't actually ME, but like I said, I got the exact message Illu got

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

SporkChan posted:

Oh okay. So you can confirm Illu has a watch, but he could have done something else on N2. Gotcha.

Who did you target N2?

Keats, but it failed


Nutsack Rangoon posted:

Sorry, what I was getting at is did it tell you who Illu's target was?

It did not, it just said "your target"

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Tired Moritz posted:

All of it? Everyone has single target powers except for Sandwolf?

This feels specious to me. MOST skills are single target, excluding like. Ecco, Bus Driver...There's probably a couple more but it seems to me like in most games you'd only have one person, if that, with multi target skill

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Nutsack Rangoon posted:

I think busser is unlikely. I think Moritz switched places w you w his power so his completed and you got jailed.

Yeah, you're right, the target swap makes more sense, I was just pointing out to TM that 'multi target skills' are always going to be rare, so it's not a wild thing to have one person standing out as having multi-target, and it isn't like the swap would be THAT hard to moderate if, say, TM swapped out with Cube during Sand's first Gunsmith action on N1? That seems pretty straightforward to moderate

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

fool of sound posted:

Yeah, I tracked "my target" (spork) to moritz. If it was a target swap that wouldn't have happened. If moritz is a lightning rod (redirect to self) then that's consistant.

Did Spork target Moritz, or did they target me, and got redirected to Moritz?

Also, does the redirect happen after Roleblocking me? I'm somewhat confused on order of operations here, cause it seems like if a Town Lightning Rod doesn't protect someone from being Role Blocked that makes the role kinda toothless?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
Hmm. Did Spork explain reasoning for targeting TM?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Tired Moritz posted:

I can confirm Banito and since he claimed roleblocked for I said anything, I think Spork's actions are cleared too

So Banito, Spork, me and FoS did not kill last night

This doesn't necessarily clear, to be fair, since Tracker and Role Block can both be scum, but you're right it does mean none of us were the ones who got Opop.

It has to be either Hal, or a Ninja/Poisoner, at this stage, it seems

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
You seem to be implying your charms will 'go off' on your death? If I'm reading you right.

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

yuming posted:

“hmm yes perhaps Hal is scum or maybe not” :iiam:

I think Illu is scum here.

I didn't comment on this at the time, but to add to your point, Hal has been on the quiet side, but when they've spoken up, I've felt it was somewhat substantial at least? They definitely didn't feel like scum trying to lay low.

Nutsack Rangoon posted:

I think if any of those are the case, the move for town is to vote between me n Keats tbh. We're both claiming no night action last night and Keats is avoiding claiming one-shot self-kill item-giver-that-players-dont-receive.

I agree that the odds are good one of you two are it. It would be nice if Keats had a harder claim to make, but considering what they HAVE said, I do kind of get not wanting to explain further, since if they're town that's info scum shouldn't have, I think.


Johnny Keats posted:

Of course not but it supported his claim. Please understand that as long as I trust Sandwolf I kind of have to chose between you and Illu so I'm sorry for nitpicking if that's what this is.

Both of them have more or less proven Inv roles that could just as easily be scum. My read on Illu is slightly more scum than FoS, but I've suspected both of them for periods of D2

I'm also once again suspicious of TM, but that's mostly because their case against Yuming has never made a whole lot of sense to me considering the mason shenanigans kind of make them clear town in my mind

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Tired Moritz posted:

How is yuming clear town?

Ah, this was my misunderstanding, I though yuming had been masoned, as opposed to messaged by a mason, it wasn't until their breakdown post that that got clarified for me.

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Tired Moritz posted:

Ya know with everything out there idk why we're not killing Hal

So you doubt the mason claim?

Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.
Just for clarity, then, your proposing that Hal and Rangoon is scum, there is no mason(or there's scum mason, which seems completely ridiculous at face value) and the messages sent by Rangoon after being fake masoned are in furtherance of this fake mason plot? And that Rangoon is Scum Messenger?

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Spacebanito
Dec 4, 2009

Die thou unsung.

Tired Moritz posted:

Scum masonizers are a thing, actually

Isn't the whole point of masons to give town a chance to coordinate with known town at night? How does scum mason even function? I have a derailing amount of questions about this(like masons die if they try and masonize scum, what if scum mason targets town? Though I suppose that's not likely to accidentally happen)

I guess ultimately this does mean Hal and Rangoon are definitionally the same faction, regardless.

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