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fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

yuming posted:

You tracked me to Spacebanito ! !

That doesn't mean that you actually gave them a talisman or that the talismans do what they say. That fact that neither you nor none of the people you've visited have had any indication of anything suggests that you aren't the tinker-esque role you claim.

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fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Hell, you could be a poisoner who tried to kill TMor and got blocked by the jail.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

yuming posted:

On N2? I gave a talisman to Sandwolf :sun:

Unverified. One of the relatively few unverified actions that night.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Note that night 2 proves that one of Hal, Keats, Yuming, Rangoon, or Sandwolf must be scum unless scum withheld the kill for no reason. Additionally, if it is not Hal, then one of them must be a ninja or poisoner. Any scumteam theory must include at least one of the above.

I do not think it can be sand. Ecco-anything is waaaaaay too risky a fakeclaim in a game with this many info roles running around. All it would take is me tracking sand a single time and seeing that he's not visiting 3 people. I don't see how a genuine eccosmith is a useful role for scum at all.

The masonizer part of Hal's role is verified unless Rangoon and Hal are scum together, and it would be weird for Hal's first mason pick as scum to be fellow scum. Rangoon's day messages are verified.

Yuming and keats have been largely ignoring one another except to very occasionally lightly distance themselves or, in the case of yuming, actively defend keats. The effects of their roles are completely unverified to this point.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

fool of sound posted:

*at least one of Hal, Keats, Yuming, Rangoon, or Sandwolf must be scum

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

fool of sound posted:

*unless scum withheld the kill for no reason and there's a poisoner

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Tbh I think I've cooled on Hal overnight. After my review last night I'm very convinced that we're looking at a keat/yuming team and I'm not sure that Hal fits into that compared to TMor. TMor being unable to LR killing actions feels like a very pro-scum role; an LR that can't protect is really just a "gently caress with investigative powers" role.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
I'm not completely ruling out Hal cause we do have a result of course, but I think he's no higher than 4th on my list after re-examining.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Again, we have three real loving weird rear end claims running around:

---Keats: "crazy mod might say I can kill", sounds like bodyguard but rejects categorization as a bodyguard, no claimed night action since N1, "doesn't want to disclose how their action recharges", no evidence whatsoever that their claimed action exists or does anything.

---Yuming: does have a confirmed non-lethal action BUT miller claim (specifically claims to have asked the mod and been told that she investigates as scum) in a game with no apparently alignment investigation, no evidence that the action actually gives those visited an item/passive effect. no solid indication that any of these items have done anything.

---TMor: confirmed LR ability on an investigative role N2 but later claims that their LR can't affect kills, which makes it functionally just negative utility as a town role.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Johnny Keats posted:

I have said I think Hal is caught and given suspicions on others too like Nutsack. I do not see a reason to push those today even to leave thoughts on the record in the event I die? I definitely don't think I'll be nightkilled but even so, I want FoS to die today, so I don't want people switching to my other scumreads.

No you're just lying about having those reads/believing that Hal is scum lol.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Sandwolf posted:

Can we please, please just end this day. It’s a holiday weekend, and this conversation became cyclical, yesterday.

I’ll kill Keats or FoS I do not care anymore.

Then let's kill the guy who won't participate in the conversation and pinky promises that his role is real and he has real reads that he'll share tomorrow.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Keats' content has been fake as gently caress content lurking all game. Just smug tangential nonsense that's non-responsive to actual play.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Like how can anyone look at Keats' posting and say "yeah this is a dude who's trying to solve this game"?

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
vooooooote keeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaats

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
I mean, you're not wrong as such but town keats isn't evasive like he has been on prior days, spending most of his postcount complaining about ciphers or having some loving bizarre hair-splitting go-nowhere feud with rangoon that keats clearly never actually believed since he never bothered pushing for a vote.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Town keats has reads and theories of the game. This keats has been pretending to play all game.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Spacebanito posted:

Real quick question FoS. How come you were dead silent when I was making a similar case against Keats on the prior game day? This targeting of him feels extremely opportunistic, especially when, again, you didn't do it at the beginning of d3 when it would have been a thing town does to not themselves get murdered for being sand's eccosmith target

Buddy I voted keats all of yesterday, with many of the same arguments, until the final five minutes of the day when I swapped to illu to avoid a noex. And I've explained my motivation for today last time you asked: when Hal claimed their role it clicked as an explanation for the lack of scum kills thus far which, alongside the night action results, made them a top priority to kill. As I've reviewed today, however, I've been struggling to slot them into a theory of the game that makes sense for scum, while keats remains central to all my theories of the game.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

fool of sound posted:

Yeah money on keats as scum here. Also I tracked spork to tmor last night

fool of sound posted:

I still think the straightforward interpretation of event is that Keats is caught by eccocop results and decided to blather about masonry nonsense to throw off discussion about that.

fool of sound posted:

Anyway my preference is Keats>>Illu=Hal. Depending on scum roles it’s possible that both Hal and Illu are innocent, and even if one of them is scum its a coin flip as to which one (well, higher on illu cause sand result). I’m hesitant to kill a confirmed info role with those other possibilities still in play. Meanwhile we have Keats with an… unusual claim, an unaccounted for action, and a sand result.

fool of sound posted:

Millers in a game that doesn't, apparently, have seers/alignment cops is also weird lol. Happily I think keats is a good compromise here: sand has a result on them, their claim isn't very believable, and they don't have an accounted for action.

fool of sound posted:

I will switch to Illu or Hal if I must but I think Keats is the obvious pick here: implicated by sand results, unaccounted for night action, and unlikely claim.

Like, what the gently caress are you on about

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Johnny Keats posted:

He's taking advantage of you being checked out to misrepresent me, dude. He's not even trying to not strawman like hell. That's not even exaggerated versions of things I've said. It's just things he hoped I said so that he could argue against them

Post your cases and theory of the game.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Johnny Keats posted:

Because it is opportunistic lol. I wasn't pushing more because I had faith in town having eyes, but seeing confirmed town Sandwolf become so bored of the game that he'll listen to whoever is the last person to talk to him, I guess I'll get aggro

"I thought town would just do what I wanted without having to expose myself so"

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Johnny Keats posted:

However he has not even gotten so far as claiming a townread on Sandwolf

I have not sussed sand once this game and have had a town read throughout. All the way from day 2

fool of sound posted:

I'm working under the assumption of townwolf for the result and I think that is largely supported by their posting.

to today

fool of sound posted:

I do not think it can be sand. Ecco-anything is waaaaaay too risky a fakeclaim in a game with this many info roles running around. All it would take is me tracking sand a single time and seeing that he's not visiting 3 people. I don't see how a genuine eccosmith is a useful role for scum at all.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Spacebanito posted:

Keats sounds like they're strawmanning 100% of the time they have talked in this thread, I kinda consider that a null tell at this point...

...why would you consider scummy play a null tell from someone you haven't played with before? Like sand has played with keats a ton and they have a metaconflict that spans multiple games. You have no such thing. This reeks of motivated reasoning.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Spacebanito posted:

Because nobody else really thought it was all that questionable until today, leading me to believe that since his behavior hasn't changed, something else has, and THAT reeks of motivated reasoning.

I pointed it out when he was having nonsense fights with rangoon! I confronted him about it then!

fool of sound posted:

Keats where is this stupid loving coded message drama going? Absolutely nothing posted about it has convinced me that it's not a waste of time, just standard masonry poo poo without useful information.

fool of sound posted:

Like for the love of god don't spend a second day on a worthless runaround with nutsack please post the highlights.

fool of sound posted:

I do not understand your complaint. You seem to be upset that the masonry you were invited to has a code gimmick.

fool of sound posted:

I still think the straightforward interpretation of event is that Keats is caught by eccocop results and decided to blather about masonry nonsense to throw off discussion about that.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Make your belated claim instead of whining keats

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
Oh good christ lol.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
This is straightforward. Even if keats isn't scum (dubious), his claim is functionally scum-aligned and he will betray town in lylo. He has to be executed period.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Spacebanito posted:

An odd stance to take, since what you're saying is "If Keats's claim is true, he needs to go immediately", which is strange, considering if Keats's claim is true, you're confirmed scum

fool of sound posted:

Even if keats isn't scum (dubious)

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
The point is that it no longer matters if keats is wholly lying (possible; it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose a claimed miller as his survivor target), partially lying and concealing a vig (possible; he hedged his bets when the eccosmith first came out with the "crazy mod" thing), or telling the truth (doubtful), he needs to be eliminated.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Spacebanito posted:

So at this stage the question really needs to be whether or not people believe Keats's claim. If you do, FoS is the vote. Otherwise it has to be Keats, because lying a full claim at this stage would be impossibly scummy.


Honestly, I'm confused as to why this is still a conversation as opposed to just having FoS be the vote

Because keats is probably scum! He's been playing scummy all game!

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Spacebanito posted:

Yeah, I don't understand how you keep saying "If he's telling the truth he has to go" when the condition of him telling the truth is that you're scum, and saying "Even if I'm scum, Keats is the better target"

Because keats' claim is scum in lylo even if you believe it, which you shouldn't.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
The worst case scenario for eliminating keats is that he's fully telling the truth and a functional scum is eliminated. The worst case scenario for eliminating me is that keats is just lying, I'm town, and he's scum.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Spacebanito posted:

Except his scum play also aligns with his claim

Does it? Why is yuming so invested in defending him if she's unaware, why is he so disinterested in defending himself if that fucks up his ability to revive the person he needs to protect?

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
I don't believe keats' claim because I know I can't kill so unless two separate sand results got hosed up that means he has to be able to. However, and this is the crux of my argument, nobody else needs to 100% believe that I'm town in order for the calculus to tell them to vote keats. You just need to not 100% believe that I'm scum, because if there's any room for doubt, then keats is the better target. And there should be room for doubt unless you have motivated reasoning!

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Tired Moritz posted:

is yuming particularly invested?

She's defended keats for three days straight now when there have been sand results.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
My point is that keats' claim should convince the fence sitters to vote keats, and we have multiple fence sitters at this point.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

Johnny Keats posted:

I assumed that was because Yuming is scum.

Why haven't you pushed yuming at all until this point if you believe that?

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012

yuming posted:

I agree I think that the Keats mix up reads town.

yuming posted:

As for the soft claim, I would go for FoS out of those three. Cube and keats I both have stronger town feels on.

These two are back to back:

yuming posted:

I am most suspicious of Illu (obv) and keats atm.

yuming posted:

I’m going back and forth on keats.

yuming posted:

So my thought re: space vs. keats is that it is ++ town on keats.

I found myself nodding mmhmm to some of what keats had to say about FoS, I'm going to look back at earlier game content now.

Note that she already wasn't claiming suspicion on keats when she said this

yuming posted:

I've effectively swapped keats for Rangoon in my suspicion list atm.

yuming posted:

I think keats and I are seeing the same POV here.

yuming posted:

I agree with Keats’ point on Illus claim. I wanna kill Illu here.

yuming posted:

Looking though his posts I can follow keats' perspective as role claims change. I am just not imagining him as scum here tbqh.

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fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012
That was fun and an incredibly exhausting 108 post final day for me lol.

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