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I'm sorry, I missed your original explanation. I don't think it's a good one for editing my post, but it's late and I'm tired and I don't really want to get into a spat about it so I'll leave it at that.
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Jul 25, 2024 05:16
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One thing I’m struck by in these books is how much they don’t permit laziness on the part of the reader. Like or dislike Saunders’ prose, it invites really close attention. So much is elided, and relies on inference and oblique thinking. And this is here in Book 1 where noone is using the language of their youth translated roughly into modern Commonweal to argue political theory of slavery with an exiled non-primate obligate metavore. At a certain point, diagramming sentences becomes a useful skill for the reader. Not for everyone, especially since his tone is very, very dry, but that effort to make the connections and read between the lines is really rewarding for me.
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Jul 25, 2024 06:46
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The PoV character in the second book is a new arrival to the Creeks and a student of magic, so it's a *little* friendlier as far as explaining things, but of course that doesn't help us here. Re-reading The March North after having read some of the later books can be illuminating (as can just reading it a second time).
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Jul 25, 2024 07:32
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i do wonder what it is about the specifically-dragon blood that the sorcerers find appealing. you'd think it'd be the implication of rare ingredients - other non-quoted parts of the chapter mention that it's "thaumaturgically active", that the flame is a sort of snot-green (manganese? molybdenum? vanadium?), it contains "vitriol", and that rust has an interest in some of the constituent parts. i don't really remember that ever getting mentioned again, though, and besides, the real nasty ingredients that are of interest to the independents get pulled out of fluoride-rich rocks and air i think there is one very brief mention near the end of the book but it's not in the context of "wow, look what we can pull out of this stuff" - it's the captain drinking a tankard of it
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Jul 25, 2024 09:08
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nm, forbidden knowledge
Slyphic fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jul 25, 2024 |
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Jul 25, 2024 12:28
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quote:Similarly, as per the author's request, don't post any information from his Google Group.
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Jul 25, 2024 12:54
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Ah, that's why ctrl-f failed me. I only ever interacted through the email side of it, didn't think about it being a 'google group' whatever that is.
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Jul 25, 2024 14:28
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When you think about it, the Captain is seriously understating it when he calls Split Creek "not a little working" in the first chapter. A 200 foot/60 meter river is a large volume of liquid, and where does all that blood, fire, venom, dragon's blood, and beer debouch?
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Jul 25, 2024 14:42
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that's an unneccessarily pithy and precise technical term, graydon e: sp. Inexplicable Humblebrag fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jul 25, 2024 |
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Jul 25, 2024 15:58
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I had to look it up to make sure I was spelling and using it right. But I did think it was a very Graydon word as I was posting. e: Also, I wonder how much of that beer gets drunk? What type of beer is it? What's the ABV?
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Jul 25, 2024 16:19
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In a rarity for the geography of the Commonweal, there's actually an explicit answer for where Split Creek terminates in UOB. Doesn't actually have any impact on the story to my recollection, but tags anyways. “Split Creek winds up in Awkward Lake.” Mel’s voice becomes entirely definite. “Do not go there.”
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Jul 25, 2024 16:23
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Quinton posted:The PoV character in the second book is a new arrival to the Creeks and a student of magic, so it's a *little* friendlier as far as explaining things, but of course that doesn't help us here. Yeah this is noticeable. It’s not like his style is ever perfectly clear but The March North is really quite laconic and terse because of its narrator.
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Jul 25, 2024 18:21
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habeasdorkus posted:I had to look it up to make sure I was spelling and using it right. But I did think it was a very Graydon word as I was posting. does it retain a bouquet of blood? A touch of burning? That special tingle on the tongue? I'm willing to take one for the team in the name of science
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Jul 25, 2024 19:09
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navyjack posted:I read this as “I have 3 extraordinarily powerful sorcerers here so I’m going to do something that might be very ill-advised and get a bunch of people killed if you guys weren’t here to keep everyone alive. I need to wake these militia guys up before the Bad Old Days come right over the borders. I could say more, but my soldiers already are a little creeped out by me, so I don’t want to throw fuel on the fire.” - we've got three terrifyingly powerful sorcerers here, so we can afford to play a bit harder than usual - their presence here also implies something really scary is on its way - I need to get the wapentake ready to tackle whatever that something is - I'm not going to go into detail on what "something really scary" might mean in practice because it would be bad for morale head58 posted:We’re just skipping past the “undead” part? It might also be a reference to what happened with the Eighth; as I understand it, the captain survived, along with a few others, but if the stories reached the Creeks somewhat garbled as the entire Eighth dying at their posts, and here's the captain as a veteran of that operation, what else could he be? Khizan posted:I got huge Ten Who Were Taken vibes from Rust and Halt and my initial guess as to "What is this society like and what terrible power does our narrator represent that this is so?" was roughly "The Domination if the Dominator had been a decent sort who made the Taken enlist in the National Guard and promise to behave themselves." (Although I think the ones near the top of the list are probably more comparable to the Lady of the Tower or the Dominator in threat, rather than "just" the Ten.)
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Jul 25, 2024 19:09
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Chapter 6The March North posted:Blossom’s iron-mining was spectacular. There was a ground-shaking roar and a pillar of fire high enough and bright enough to give everyone in Westcreek Town a faint green second shadow for most of the day. It's also worth remembering that Blossom is the weakest and least of the sorcerers present. Halt and Rust outclass the sorcerer who made a pillar of fire as a side effect. Blossom's copper mining is described specifically as "less spectacular," but the description is still pretty impressive if you ask me. Plus, this is a wizard getting tons and tons of copper from tailings - i.e. the stuff most people think doesn't have any useable copper in it. The next paragraph indicates that the, or at least, the nearest, Creek copper mine is 35km away from the town. The March North posted:A thirty-five kilometre hastened-march with the whole company, and thirty-five kilometres hastened-march back, was no problem… The Captain, of course, spends less time on how fast the Wapentake move than the Captain spends on Rust providing a cure for foot blisters. Terrible and mighty the independent sorcerers of the Commonweal surely are, but also useful and productive. In addition to discussing foot sores, the next few paragraphs also cover other logistic issues. I really appreciate the March North's continued attention to detail. The March North posted:We almost didn’t get Blossom because it was taking so long for another Independent, any other Independent, to learn this specific ritual. The March North posted:The Foundry-Master really wants Blossom back, not because of the expense or the cold blue shine of the new tubes, but because the usual iron artillery tube, for the last couple hundred-odd years since some Independent figured out how to shove momentum into shot directly instead of using a spring, is a five-layer thing. Blossom’s expensive alternative has nine… Blossom is the only person in the Commonweal who can make the new experimental artillery tubes that Blossom brought to the Creeks. Whatever is coming, someone thinks it is bad enough that risking losing Blossom and the new super artillery is worth it. Either they're really bad at risk analysis or whatever is coming would be a disaster left unchecked. I imagine the more the Captain learns about Blossom, the more bleak his threat assessment gets. Considering the Captain's threat assessment started with "we're all going to die and probably all million+ people in the Creeks will die after us," that's saying a lot. The March North posted:The first step in not losing is being able to move, and between the Part-Captain and the copper mine, we’re getting there. You may be wondering why there are only 4 tubes with Blossom. It's not because they're experimental. Or not just because they're experimental. It's because the tubes require a macguffin to make. Samarium, which is a real thing that might realistically be used in making an iron alloy, but yeah, still a macguffin. The March North posted:The one known source is out of anything to send until they mine and refine more, and they do that in kilo lots. Which is why Rust is off prospecting. The Captain gives Rust orders to go prospecting. Really loose orders. This is necessary because of a long standing tradition that wants Independents, which is the polite word for spooky sorcerers who work for the Commonweal, to be non-combatants. Giant pillars of fire not-withstanding, the Commonweal government prefers to depend on its soldiers for violence rather than lone sorcerers; when violence is necessary. The Captain violates this tradition by giving Rust orders to "employ the least sufficient means necessary to return with useful warning to Westcreek Town." This sounds fine and reasonable. Until you notice that there's no limitation on "the least sufficient means." If Rust thinks it necessary to turn an entire invading army into cannibal daisies, his orders allow him to. Everyone except Rust is freaked out by this. The March North posted:Rust sketches a gesture that might have heard of a salute toward the plain and honest hat brim, and goes out. Meanwhile, Halt has been The March North posted:… giving the harsh-with-a-kind-heart grandma act a real workout, training Creeks with a decent slice of talent into glassmakers. The chapter wraps up with some light logistics notes, a comment that the Wapentake company is starting to pull together, and some more discussion of how spooky the Captain looks in the focus. The March North posted:Could wish to tell if the company’s getting to trust me or if it’s just a belief that I’m dangerously crazy.
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Jul 25, 2024 21:05
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LLSix posted:This is the first acknowledgement of military courtesy Rust has made. Reading between the lines, Rust is thrilled to be given orders that let him kill bad guys if can just manage to arrange things so it's "necessary." Either that or he really likes prospecting. Reading between the lines more, I think the Captain really wants some sort of early warning of whatever's coming, and sending Rust "prospecting" is a way of arranging that while still staying within the letter of the nominal duties of a staff thaumaturge. And Rust, in turn, is well aware of that.
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Jul 25, 2024 21:16
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I think that observing the contrast of Halt's observed behavior and implied character against her reputation and the quality of her sorcerous penumbra is really crucial to understanding the underlying story and ideas that link up the books.
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Jul 25, 2024 21:42
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LLSix posted:some more discussion of how spooky the Captain looks in the focus. I like this bit: quote:“Can you see yourself, sir?” the Captain isn't sure what's going on, but figures maybe the standard itself is somehow magically backing them up when they have to order around these ancient terrors like Halt and Rust, reminding them that "the whole Line is back there" however: quote:Halt leans, both hands on the stick handle, nods once, and goes out, too. Halt went down to Split Creek for the iron mining with Eustace carrying two enormous glass jars that must have weighed a tonne each, empty. Aside from making it obvious that Eustace is a good deal stronger than a sheep that size ought to be, this let everybody in Westcreek Town hope that Halt knows how to make glass by some means that doesn’t involve tonnes and tonnes of charcoal. Halt’s turned that interest into a glass factory, turning out milk pitchers, mixing bowls, and canning jars in great profusion. It’s been giving the harsh-with-a-kind-heart grandma act a real workout, training Creeks with a decent slice of talent into glassmakers. the Standard itself approves of Halt's canning operation -- maybe because it approves of food security or maybe because the Foremost (who we know are the people who worked with Laurel to bind everybody, Halt and Rust included) were radicals eke out fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jul 25, 2024 |
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Jul 25, 2024 22:03
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I think too that since this book is from specifically the captain's perspective he reflexively tracks threats, especially sorcerers. It's sort of like when I'm watching kids. Count one, immediately count all the others as a reflex. Or in this case I know where sauron is where's the other.
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Jul 25, 2024 22:10
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navyjack posted:One thing I’m struck by in these books is how much they don’t permit laziness on the part of the reader. Like or dislike Saunders’ prose, it invites really close attention. This is probably my issue with the books. I like to let prose flow over me and have my brain working on coming up with the visuals while I'm reading. If my brain has trouble imagining the visuals and has to switch into puzzle solving mode then I'm blocked from enjoying the read. I think a lot depends on what kind of person you are. I've never enjoyed puzzles. In that way I am probably more of a passive consumer and reader than an active one. This also probably explains why Sandersons books are so appealing to most people. Even though he sometimes deals with more adult topics, the books are written at a 6th grade reading level which is about where we're at as a society...
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Jul 25, 2024 23:11
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Do we even have any 1 ton (and probably metric ton, given the use of kilograms in the book so far) glass flasks or jars in the real world? We get another look at the Creeks not really being into newfangled or magical things in the chapter, and especially not newfangled AND magical things, regarding the Bronze Bulls: quote:Halt stepped in and saved things when an awareness that the ritual was new got around, by pointing out that Blossom had obviously been taught the ritual at the main Line foundry , and really, the Regular Line wouldn’t be using it if it didn’t work at least as well as the old way, now would they? Rust, on the other hand seems to be intrigued by the new artillery and the possibility of making more: quote:Rust has heard of samarium. . . and has admiring things to say about Blossom’s enchantment design, which means Rust really wants to try it. Not sure how I feel about someone like Rust learning how to enchant these new cannons, personally. e: Also, I think this is the first time the name of a month is used in the book, the Captain tells Rust as Rust sets off: quote:“Be back by the end of the second décade of Thermidor.” Points to whoever's reading/following this for the first time that can tell us what calendar the Commonweal uses. habeasdorkus fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jul 26, 2024 |
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Jul 26, 2024 00:24
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Danhenge posted:I think that observing the contrast of Halt's observed behavior and implied character against her reputation and the quality of her sorcerous penumbra is really crucial to understanding the underlying story and ideas that link up the books. Yeah, the fun thing about Halt is, there are stories about her, and if you have some kind of extrasensory perception she’s quite scary! but if you just look at her behavior, she really IS genuinely kind and helpful and nice. She knits! She, much like other old ladies I know, dotes on her horrible antisocial pet. She teaches canning (I learned from MY gramma) and calls people “dear”…she seems just absolutely lovely until there is some need for unloveliness
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Jul 26, 2024 01:51
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LLSix posted:The Captain violates this tradition by giving Rust orders to "employ the least sufficient means necessary to return with useful warning to Westcreek Town." This sounds fine and reasonable. Until you notice that there's no limitation on "the least sufficient means." If Rust thinks it necessary to turn an entire invading army into cannibal daisies, his orders allow him to. That’s not the best part. The March North posted:If you cannot return, do something certain to be noticed. This is, on the off chance that Rust runs into something bigger than him, Rust is to go extremely loud.
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Jul 26, 2024 02:23
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navyjack posted:Yeah, the fun thing about Halt is, there are stories about her, and if you have some kind of extrasensory perception she’s quite scary! but if you just look at her behavior, she really IS genuinely kind and helpful and nice. She knits! She, much like other old ladies I know, dotes on her horrible antisocial pet. She teaches canning (I learned from MY gramma) and calls people “dear”…she seems just absolutely lovely until there is some need for unloveliness my grandma did too. I can only imagine while my grandpa was clearing their house of...many decades (60+?) before heading to supervised living how many undated jars of pickled things needed to go to household hazardous waste. There was one closet in the basement that was packed floor to ceiling when I was a kid, and I never recalled that ever changing nor did I see her use things from it as I got older Maybe she was a wizard too? Those mason jars were certainly explosive
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Jul 26, 2024 02:29
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A note on Samarium. Y'all've heard of neodymium magnets. Well Samarium is a close cousin in the Lanthanide group, and often found in similar minerals. It's not quite as magnetic under normal circumstances, but importantly retains it's magnetism under much higher heat. The tubes are railguns.
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Jul 26, 2024 03:34
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Slyphic posted:The tubes are railguns. That's the assumption I've been operating on since I first read TMN. I am a big fan of magic process that borrows / enhances "real world" techniques. There's a mention of "lost-illusion casting" in ASoBD which I absolutely love (see "lost-wax casting" for a similar non-magical process). edit: very minor thing and not plot-relevant but spoilered just in case Quinton fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Jul 26, 2024 |
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Jul 26, 2024 04:10
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Slyphic posted:The tubes are railguns.  lost-illusion casting has captivated me since I first read ASoBD
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Jul 26, 2024 04:41
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LLSix posted:The discussion of Halt's side project teaching people how to make glass canning jars is a complete non-sequitur, aside from continuing to ensure both wizards get described whenever one is mentioned. I'm not really sure why Saunders does it, I didn't even notice it until I started writing this Let's Read. Saunders is very invested in these books in exploring what the Commonweal is and how it survives as an island of peace in the midst of the Bad Old Days. I've already pointed out the use of focuses to sterilize canning jars gives the Commonweal and advantage in being able to store a food surplus. You still need the jars though. If you can put recipes for several standard jar sizes into a focus, then a team can mass produce as many jars as their supply of raw materials will support. Also assuming the existence of another focus team making lids. And further assuming the logistical planning authority to take estimates of agricultural surplus and work backwards to focus teams for jars, lids, and sterilization, plus raw materials, plus transport and storage resources. The Commonweal can do this because it is made up of free people empowered to plan for a collective future. They are working with a very fine balance between market and command economies. One bad weeding season and you end up with a lot of empty jars and hungry people. One bad mistake by a focus team and you have lids but no jars or vice versa, and your surplus goes to waste. Lucky for them, if it works for just one season, you have a surplus to start with. They only have to stay so lucky once they get a little ahead. Plus or minus natural disasters and the Bad Old Times putting their two cents in. e. Oh right, yes. Of course the food surplus from canning is built in from the beginning of the Commonweal I'll say it again, Laurel's greatest talent may well have been finding the people whole will build a worthy society in the Peace she and the Foremost will create Otherwise, it's just a desert.. mllaneza fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jul 26, 2024 |
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Jul 26, 2024 05:59
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Slyphic posted:A note on Samarium. Y'all've heard of neodymium magnets. Well Samarium is a close cousin in the Lanthanide group, and often found in similar minerals. It's not quite as magnetic under normal circumstances, but importantly retains it's magnetism under much higher heat. i think the inclusion of cobalt in the "ingredients for a tube" list is meant to make you think of high-power high-temp magnets for railguns, yeah. apparently it's also used for doping relatively high-temperature superconductors? can imagine that also having some application in increasing the efficiency of pouring mystery power into a tube obviously the books aren't a blueprint for "how to make a magic railgun" but i do think this stuff's meant to be slightly more on the evocative side than the literal. they were described by the captain as being a way to transfer momentum itself directly into the payload, rather than anything specifically electromagnetic to move the payload, and you'd figure they'd cover off the mechanics at Line school. that said, if it looks like a railgun, and quacks like a railgun...
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Jul 26, 2024 08:40
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:i think the inclusion of cobalt in the "ingredients for a tube" list is meant to make you think of high-power high-temp magnets for railguns, yeah. Yeah, it’s pretty apparent that the Power, while still having lots of “woo woo” metaphysical and metaphorical aspects, interacts and intersects with what we call physics and chemistry in a very real way. I do think that the woo stuff is interesting because like in book 3 “Book 3 spoilers” posted:
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Jul 26, 2024 15:03
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There's an element of sympathy to how the Power works for sure. Hence the dragon blood, the ox forms and oxness. Making a tube that has the features of strong magnetism and super conductivity and durability seems like a good basis for the actual mechanism of launch. I've got a theory about the layers as well, much less definite, based on early parts of book 2. When Edgar has the lunch pails and is messing with gravitational curves and fields, it makes me think the layers of the tube are n-dimensional overlapping magnetic fields. The stuff with spatial dilation in book 4 makes me think this even more.
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Jul 26, 2024 15:12
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habeasdorkus posted:Do we even have any 1 ton (and probably metric ton, given the use of kilograms in the book so far) glass flasks or jars in the real world? It's not a flask or a jar, but I did some googling and found somebody saying their 370 gallon aquarium was 800 pounds, and then someone else saying they had a 1000 gallon all-glass aquarium, which I think works out to about a metric ton.
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Jul 26, 2024 20:25
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fritz posted:It's not a flask or a jar, but I did some googling and found somebody saying their 370 gallon aquarium was 800 pounds, and then someone else saying they had a 1000 gallon all-glass aquarium, which I think works out to about a metric ton.
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Jul 26, 2024 20:27
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What a weird coincidence!
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Jul 26, 2024 20:33
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For some reason I thought that the glass containers themselves were one ton, not that they held a ton. Seems like an elephant sized animal like Eustace could carry a couple empty 1000 gallon aquariums.
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Jul 26, 2024 20:38
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withak posted:What a weird coincidence! e: yes, we were both graydon saunders
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Jul 26, 2024 20:43
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Chapter 7The March North posted:Our Independent Part-Captain has explained three or four times now to various groups of worried drovers that the cud-chewing motion doesn’t mean the bronze bull wants to eat, or is hungry; eating isn’t a source of contentment to a cow. Cud-chewing, being certain to have eaten enough today, is, and that’s what was kept in the enchantment. It doesn’t do to have bronze bulls that aren’t content with their lot. Fortunately, they're also very cute and want to get scratched between the eyes just like the live ox they used to be, did. Unfortunately, it's hot out, which means the bronze bulls get hot. Being made of metal, the bronze bulls get too hot to touch, much like seatbelts and playground equipment. The drovers are forced to improvise, but at least there haven't been any incidents. While the drovers are adjusting to their new and improved ox, the Wapentake and the artillery are exercising. The March North posted:Twitch is a typical Creek, which means two decimeters taller than the tall gunner and weighing, in armour, twice what I do in my socks. Creeks tend strong, too; bending horseshoes straight with your bare hands isn’t a party trick in the Creeks because it’s something you’re embarrassed if you can’t do, not proud if you can. The March North posted:The Part-Captain has single-handedly advanced artillery in the Commonweal some immense amount, and hasn’t figured out why there’s been so much trouble getting Creeks to really listen. Several paragraphs of what passes for military humor later, we're reminded the Captain has a different but similar problem. The March North posted:“Why wouldn’t the company hold?” The Captain takes it in stride. The March North posted:Blossom looks so totally flummoxed for a moment I hope someone’s watching. We can pick one of the rumoured explanations and make a drill out of it, on the theory that you should always train for what you’re afraid of. The March North posted:“Rust.” Rust, who was out prospecting/scouting does not give a report on what he found. Instead, the first thing he does is ask a question. The March North posted:“Is there a watch kept on the dry Westcreek?” Rust is dry of voice … The March North posted:“Where are they?” Westcreek is the dry bed of what would be a navigable river. Rust wears too much dust to gauge, the dry Westcreek’s not that far away. The March North posted:“They’re lost.” Rust looks very oddly chagrined, saying this. “From Reems, and most extremely lost until I should permit them to be otherwise.” Rust continues: The March North posted:“It would appear that the Archonate did not take the intended message from our last meeting.” The Captain asks where the lost people are, again. Rust makes an awesome magic map, and it turns out they're about 2 days away. The Captain gives some sharp, but paranoid orders. I do appreciate it when characters who are supposed to be competent actually act competent. So far, the Captain lives up to his billing. The March North posted:"Plan is to make these guys vanish, but we need to know what they think they’re doing, so we can’t just leave them lost until the dry gets them.” I do enjoy the last sentence here. The March North posted:“Colour party, Halt, we’re going to Headwaters to sound the general alarm. I’m going so the Gerefan can’t commit paperwork.”
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Jul 26, 2024 23:05
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I read the cud chewing differently. I think the drovers are concerned about the ox being hungry, and not being able to feed them. I think Halt is smiling because this is the moment she knows she's won the bet with him a few paragraphs down. Two moments I want to call out in this chapter. The March North posted:Between the Iron Bridge creatures and the concern about Reems, there isn’t anything substantial to send. Recall the captain is one of the last handful of survivors of those Iron Bridge creatures that nearly defeated a battalion. He talks about Reems at the same power level. So yeah, he's not overreacting, he's importantly not underreacting; no hubris, no bravado, it's fire alarm time. The other is back in the undead part. The March North posted:“Half of them think the Captain’s dead, Blossom dear, and the other half think demonic.” I've read this book at least 5 times now, and I'm still not sure Halt's suggesting here. Speculation welcome.
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Jul 27, 2024 00:48
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Speculation: the mother's think he's heartless and the lovers think he's a demon in the sack
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Jul 27, 2024 01:12
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Benagain posted:Speculation: the mother's think he's heartless and the lovers think he's a demon in the sack That's my new favourite interpretation.
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Jul 27, 2024 01:48
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