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Ferrinus posted:He's undead, with like twenty d12 hit dice, so really he's just as durable as a death knight would have been in his place. I mean, sure, his AC could be better, but most of the paladin ghosts in that room are the ghosts of like level seven or eight characters. With a +7 or 8 BAB, that should be plenty to easily hit the guy. Those weapons are gonna do the same amount of damage whether they're 8th or 18th level(not accounting for combat feats that improve damage).
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May 31, 2007 16:04
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greatn posted:With a +7 or 8 BAB, that should be plenty to easily hit the guy. Those weapons are gonna do the same amount of damage whether they're 8th or 18th level(not accounting for combat feats that improve damage).  Really? A 20th level sorcerer lich should have an AC of significantly above 18 or so, after spells and items.
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May 31, 2007 16:12
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Hm, an 18 or so is exactly the AC I would have guessed. With flanking bonuses you would hit, on average. That's precluding any other bonuses they have to hit, whether from weapon finesse, focus, specialization, strength(if their 'ghost' type has strength), or other feats.
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May 31, 2007 16:25
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greatn posted:Hm, an 18 or so is exactly the AC I would have guessed. With flanking bonuses you would hit, on average. That's precluding any other bonuses they have to hit, whether from weapon finesse, focus, specialization, strength(if their 'ghost' type has strength), or other feats.
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May 31, 2007 16:56
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High Altitude Hair Stylist posted:
Liches actually get an innate +5 natural armor, and then you factor in Xykon's dexterity and any items he may be wearing, and then you factor in stuff like Mage Armor or Shield. The big thing, though, is his massive innate damage reduction, which not a single paladin in that room is equipped to pierce. Liches get like 15/Bludgeoning and Magic, and every paladin in that room has some variety of katana!
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May 31, 2007 18:36
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Ferrinus posted:Liches actually get an innate +5 natural armor, and then you factor in Xykon's dexterity and any items he may be wearing, and then you factor in stuff like Mage Armor or Shield. But there would be no damage reduction vs smite evil, right? Thiugh that AC does sound better now.
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May 31, 2007 18:55
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greatn posted:But there would be no damage reduction vs smite evil, right? Thiugh that AC does sound better now. Hilariously, there would. I mean, there's Damage Reduction pierced by "good" attacks (most demons have that), but 15/Bludgeoning and Magic doesn't care about the alignment of the attacker. Smite Evil would only "pierce" the DR in the sense that it vastly increases the raw damage dealt and so ensures that some eventually gets through.
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May 31, 2007 19:24
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Ferrinus posted:Hilariously, there would. I mean, there's Damage Reduction pierced by "good" attacks (most demons have that), but 15/Bludgeoning and Magic doesn't care about the alignment of the attacker. Smite Evil would only "pierce" the DR in the sense that it vastly increases the raw damage dealt and so ensures that some eventually gets through. I thought Smite Evil was a spell like ability and would do damage much as a magic missile or fireball would do damage. I don't really know how exactly damage reduction works though. If Xykon were hit with a fireball, for instance, would the first 15 damage not take? I only recently converted and am still on 2nd edition thinking, where instead of DR you require a certain + to hit, and a magic spell or magic ability would do damage regardless. Do these magic abilities not get around DR?
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May 31, 2007 19:32
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greatn posted:I thought Smite Evil was a spell like ability and would do damage much as a magic missile or fireball would do damage. I don't really know how exactly damage reduction works though. Damage reduction works on all damage that comes from a weapon. Smite Evil is a supernatural ability, but that doesn't really matter. For instance, if one of the paladins was swinging a +1 Flaming Longsword, which would deal 1d8+1+1d6(fire), she'd still be completely unable to deal more than 15 damage (8+1+6=15) not counting strength bonus or Smite Evil, so that 4,000 GP magic weapon would be pretty much useless. Liches are powerful. quote:If Xykon were hit with a fireball, for instance, would the first 15 damage not take? I only recently converted and am still on 2nd edition thinking, where instead of DR you require a certain + to hit, and a magic spell or magic ability would do damage regardless. Do these magic abilities not get around DR? No, he would take full, unless he has Protection from Elements: Fire or Spell Immunity or something like that up.
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May 31, 2007 20:14
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Ah the way I thought it would work is the damage would be completely seperate. From the sword maybe something like 8 damage, none of which takes, and from the smite evil something like x amount of damage, all of which would count. OK, my following question would be: why are these paladins so retarded? It should be common knowledge bladed weapons suck against skeletons and therefore liches. They are proficient with all martial weapons. They KNEW Xykon would come for the throne room. Why the hell were none of them wielding maces, mauls, clubs, nunchuks or otherwise? All of my characters always carry at least one slashing, one piercing and one bludgeoning weapon for this very reason. greatn fucked around with this message at 20:21 on May 31, 2007 |
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May 31, 2007 20:18
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Because they're a Japanese equivalent. The katanas are the holy weapon of their order and using any other weapon would disgrace their ancestors.
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May 31, 2007 20:24
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greatn posted:Ah the way I thought it would work is the damage would be completely seperate. From the sword maybe something like 8 damage, none of which takes, and from the smite evil something like x amount of damage, all of which would count. Nope, if that was the case then dr/magic would be stupid as hell. quote:OK, my following question would be: why are these paladins so retarded? quote:paladins 
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May 31, 2007 20:36
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Also he still had overland flight that probably helped him manuver a fair bit.
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May 31, 2007 20:54
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Efreet saiid posted:Also he still had overland flight that probably helped him manuver a fair bit. If he were to fly he could be surrounded by 26 people. It's really better to duck into a corner, almost, if possible. Then he could only be surrounded by 7 people, and no one could flank.
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May 31, 2007 20:56
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The ghosts are incorporeal, though. Does it matter where he stands?
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May 31, 2007 21:18
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It's not unreasonable to think that Xykon has an AC somewhere in the mid-30s at least. 10 base + 5 Natural Armor (lich) + 5 Natural Armor (Amulet of NA (do these stack? I can't remember if the Amulet increases NA, or just gives it, in which case it'd not stack)) + Ring of Protection +5 +, oh, let's say a 14 Dex , which gives another +2, +4 for Mage Armor and another +4 for Shield. I'm not even getting into miss chance stuff, since Burlew wouldn't want to draw it anyway, and Xykon might not even think of it in the first place. Plus all the DR. Xykon's a bitch to take down, no matter what.
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May 31, 2007 22:15
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Well, Roy seemed to hit about %50 of the time. He's most likely a 11th or 12th level fighter(assuming he is of similar level to Vaarsuvius, assuming she is at the minimum level to cast disentegrate or a little higher). With a +5 sword, and I'm assuming at least weapon focus for the greatsword(+1), probably some other feats for it since the greatsword is a big deal to him, and a high strength(as a human 16 or 18 most likely for another +3 or +4). So let's just say he has a +21 to hit. If he hits about %50 of the time, that makes Xykon about an AC 31. So yeah, you're probably right. Going by art, though, he doesn't appear to be wearing any rings or amulets.
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May 31, 2007 22:41
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It's all just GM fiat 
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May 31, 2007 22:55
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bgaesop posted:Damage reduction works on all damage that comes from a weapon. Smite Evil is a supernatural ability, but that doesn't really matter. For instance, if one of the paladins was swinging a +1 Flaming Longsword, which would deal 1d8+1+1d6(fire), she'd still be completely unable to deal more than 15 damage (8+1+6=15) not counting strength bonus or Smite Evil, so that 4,000 GP magic weapon would be pretty much useless. Liches are powerful. Slightly wrong. The D8+1+Str from the longsword is unlikely to get through the DR, but the fire damage would. Energy damage is not affected by DR. Liches have no innate resistance to fire, so he'd take the D6 from the sword and full damage from the fireball (Reflex half). Unless he has Fire Resistance from a spell or item. A magic mace/warhammer/morningstar would go right through, though. Wanderer posted:The ghosts are incorporeal, though. Does it matter where he stands? Not really. The ghosts could attack through the wall or floor, but since their eyes would be in the wall/floor our favorite Lich would have total concealment (50% miss chance). Gumby posted:It's not unreasonable to think that Xykon has an AC somewhere in the mid-30s at least. 10 base + 5 Natural Armor (lich) + 5 Natural Armor (Amulet of NA (do these stack? I can't remember if the Amulet increases NA, or just gives it, in which case it'd not stack)) + Ring of Protection +5 +, oh, let's say a 14 Dex , which gives another +2, +4 for Mage Armor and another +4 for Shield. I'm not even getting into miss chance stuff, since Burlew wouldn't want to draw it anyway, and Xykon might not even think of it in the first place. Yes, they stack. Amulets of Natural Armor improved your existing natural armor by their bonus. A creature with no natural armor is assumed to have a +0. Vicissitude fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jun 1, 2007 |
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Jun 1, 2007 01:11
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quote:Damage Reduction "Smite Evil" is a Supernatural ability, so it might actually be able to pierce DR. It's dicey, though, because you could argue about whether it is a supernatural attack in and of itself or just the supernatural ability to augment a totally normal attack with extra accuracy/damage. I would figure that DR's pierceability vs. supernatural attacks is there to make sure that DR doesn't stop breath weapons or magical death touches or whatever, and that Smite Evil doesn't count as a supernatural attack in and of itself.
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Jun 1, 2007 03:22
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Ferrinus posted:"Smite Evil" is a Supernatural ability, so it might actually be able to pierce DR. It's dicey, though, because you could argue about whether it is a supernatural attack in and of itself or just the supernatural ability to augment a totally normal attack with extra accuracy/damage. Yeah that is how I was considering it. I thought smite evil was additional energy damage, positive energy in this case. Enough of that though, what say you to the notion that Roy's dad's ghost is in that room? Isn't he still bound there, retaining his spellcasting powers?
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Jun 1, 2007 03:30
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Vicissitude posted:Slightly wrong. The D8+1+Str from the longsword is unlikely to get through the DR, but the fire damage would. Energy damage is not affected by DR. Neither is magic, but that doesn't make the +1 go through. I'm not positive about this, but this is how everyone I know has ruled it in the past (but it very rarely comes up). quote:Liches have no innate resistance to fire, so he'd take the D6 from the sword and full damage from the fireball (Reflex half). Unless he has Fire Resistance from a spell or item. Wait, just to be sure here-a flaming weapon is completely different from a fireball. A fireball completely bypasses damage reduction, yes. quote:A magic mace/warhammer/morningstar would go right through, though. This is completely true, though. A magic longsword and a nonmagical mace both are stopped by a lich's DR. (that's actually the exact example they use in the Monster Manual. how nerdy is that?)
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Jun 1, 2007 03:31
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bgaesop posted:Neither is magic, but that doesn't make the +1 go through. I'm not positive about this, but this is how everyone I know has ruled it in the past (but it very rarely comes up). I believe the "flaming" part of a +1 flaming longsword would actually bypass damage reduction, since damage reduction won't protect you from energy damage. You can't stab a lich, but you can burn him. The +1 bonus would definitely not get through, which is why I think Smite Evil wouldn't either.
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Jun 1, 2007 03:42
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greatn posted:Xykon really should have been dead by now. It doesn't make much sense that spellcaster would survive in a room full of paladins he doesn't even know how to hurt for any length of time. And let's not forget that this comic is humor based on D&D's idiosyncrasies. One hit point? You're at 100% capability. Zero hit points? You're on the floor, totally helpless. It's possible that Xykon was almost out of hit points; he just wouldn't behave any differently until he got to zero. (In a way, this is like a comic-strip version of Murphy's Rules...) Robot Bastard fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jun 1, 2007 |
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Jun 1, 2007 07:10
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Has anyone else mentioned the possibility of hooded paladin being ghost Roy? It's probably been mentioned but I really want Roy to do something of use this battle.
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Jun 1, 2007 07:15
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Ferrinus posted:The +1 bonus would definitely not get through, which is why I think Smite Evil wouldn't either. No it wouldn't. It's an enhancement to the weapon's natural damage, not unclassified damage on its own. With a flaming (or shocking or frost or what have you) weapon, it adds energy damage. Just because it's on a longsword doesn't mean that the fire is any less able to burn a lich. Fire damage is fire damage, not affected by DR. The DR of a Lich is still 15/Magic and Bludgeoning. A +1 flaming longsword will only do D6 fire damage to it because the magically enhanced damage of is only D8+1. You'd need at least a 22 Str and consistently roll 8 on a D8 (unless you have feats, but that's another can of worms) to do a single point of damage. DR can reduce damage to 0, but not below. As far as the 1 HP = 100% capability thing, undead are unaffected by injuries like the living are are. They can function mangled beyond belief and even headless (with the exception of vampires and liches) with no problem. Living critters have the 0 to -10 threshhold of dying. At 0 HP, the magic that animates the undead can't sustain it anymore and dissipates. The living are just laid low and begin to bleed out. Their "living energy" dissipating at that point, one might say.
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Jun 1, 2007 07:37
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Soylentbits posted:Has anyone else mentioned the possibility of hooded paladin being ghost Roy? It's probably been mentioned but I really want Roy to do something of use this battle. Doubtful. The hooded ghost was one of the living Sapphire Guard that got insane'd to death.
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Jun 1, 2007 12:14
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greatn posted:Enough of that though, what say you to the notion that Roy's dad's ghost is in that room? Isn't he still bound there, retaining his spellcasting powers? This here is what I'm interested in. I'm not sure if Roy's dad is able to interact with the world beyond sarcastic quips, but if can still cast chances are he's gonna do SOMETHING to Xykon.
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Jun 1, 2007 16:50
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Do liches have level drain or anything like that(touch attacks)? If not, it seems like it would be extremely effective to grapple one, give him no somatic or material components.(Xykon probably has still casting, but he's pretty much out of higher level spell slots at this point). Actually, that's how Roy beat him the first time. Grapple, threw into the gate(this gate doesn't have the 'can only be touched by good' rule though.
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Jun 1, 2007 17:17
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greatn posted:Do liches have level drain or anything like that(touch attacks)? If not, it seems like it would be extremely effective to grapple one, give him no somatic or material components.(Xykon probably has still casting, but he's pretty much out of higher level spell slots at this point). Actually, that's how Roy beat him the first time. Grapple, threw into the gate(this gate doesn't have the 'can only be touched by good' rule though. Paralyzing Touch and a touch attack according to the Srd
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Jun 1, 2007 17:33
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Morand posted:Paralyzing Touch and a touch attack according to the Srd Yeah, a lich who touches you can paralyze you permanently, so wrestling one is not a good move.
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Jun 1, 2007 21:29
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greatn posted:OK, my following question would be: why are these paladins so retarded? It should be common knowledge bladed weapons suck against skeletons and therefore liches. They are proficient with all martial weapons. They KNEW Xykon would come for the throne room. Why the hell were none of them wielding maces, mauls, clubs, nunchuks or otherwise? The paladins that just died were all low level so it wouldn't really have made a difference. Those that were already dead are limited to the items they had with them when they died, so unless they found a ghost touch bludgeoning weapon, they're all out of luck.
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Jun 1, 2007 23:00
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These aren't low level paladins, the real newbies are guarding the city.
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Jun 1, 2007 23:27
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Efreet saiid posted:These aren't low level paladins, the real newbies are guarding the city. Also, they're Spectral Watchers, so they're +5 CR of whatever they were before death.
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Jun 2, 2007 00:27
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bgaesop posted:That joke will never stop making me laugh. You ... you son of a bitch! I CHALLENGE YOU TO A DUEL! Also, this last page of Lich-difficulty-discussion is hilarious. The thing that I wonder is, do any of us really get upset about the game mechanics, or does one person who just seems to someone else to be upset then end up getting actually upset when insulted about game mechanics?
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Jun 2, 2007 01:38
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Nobody's getting upset. Well I think somebody could get upset if they really tried to read and enjoy erfworld, but it would more be that kind of upset where people get really stressed and tired and people are all "hey lay off that guy he's had a bad day".
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Jun 2, 2007 01:46
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Efreet saiid posted:Nobody's getting upset. Well I think somebody could get upset if they really tried to read and enjoy erfworld, but it would more be that kind of upset where people get really stressed and tired and people are all "hey lay off that guy he's had a bad day". I think that this is the cruelist critque of a literary work I have ever seen. But still very true.
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Jun 2, 2007 05:30
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Efreet saiid posted:These aren't low level paladins, the real newbies are guarding the city. I'm pretty sure the only paladin that isn't in the throne room right now is Hinjo. All the paladins who tried to take on Xykon (and are still taking on Xykon as reverse ghosts) are "low level" compared to Hinjo and certainly the Order, even if they're not "low level" in the sense of all having one or two hit dice.
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Jun 2, 2007 10:12
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greatn posted:Enough of that though, what say you to the notion that Roy's dad's ghost is in that room? Isn't he still bound there, retaining his spellcasting powers? I'm hoping for a ghost dad and ghost roy double deus ex machina... But then I really don't know the D&D rules regarding ghosts v  v
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Jun 2, 2007 10:52
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Rose wood posted:I'm hoping for a ghost dad and ghost roy double deus ex machina... But then I really don't know the D&D rules regarding ghosts v Xykon has already killed both of them once before without even breaking a sweat, so I doubt that they'd be very effective a second time, especially now that Xykon has Redcloack's backing.
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Jun 2, 2007 14:14
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