LOST Postmortem - "You can let go now." - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > LOST Postmortem - "You can let go now."

EvilTobaccoExec: Dec 22, 2003; Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts!

Bonk posted:

For a lot of "answers" on this show, it's not that hard to extrapolate or take it at face value. However there are a lot of things in the setup of the mythology where I found myself a little pissed for not getting an answer, either because they left us hanging, or because they introduced something deliberately weird without ever intending on revisiting it. Combining a couple things from previous posts, and adding a little more to it, I came up with an explanation for Lost that I, personally, can live with; whether people agree with me or not. Some of you might, some might not, but this is the one for me.

The reason we didn't get the answers to a lot of the island mysteries: Simply because there is nobody alive or dead who could actually convey that information to us. We were only ever told the story through the characters. The island is so old (older than Man), and it's been through so many regime changes that nobody actually knows the full story, and nobody ever could. Every season we were introduced to someone supposedly all-knowing. Dharma, The Others, Ben, Richard, Jacob, Smokey, and finally "Eve". ALL of them spoke cryptically, and as time went on it became evident that none of them completely knew what the island was, or had received misinformation about it. Eve wasn't the first; she ended up there by accident too.

Mythology: Lost was a show heavy on mythos and religious symbolism. And what are myth and religion? Tradition passed down through the ages, embellished, corrupted, facts omitted, evidence edited and retranslated, and shaped depending on the teller and their personal motivations. It's like the world's biggest game of telephone. You crash on a crazy island due to the protector trying to find a replacement. They just barely impart what little information they know onto you, perform some kind of initiation ritual, then they die. Repeat ad nauseam. Sometimes a lot of information is probably exchanged, sometimes probably very little at all.

The Source: By drinking the source water, you apparently get "a little more" of the life source (EM-infused water, apparently) that Eve spoke of all men desiring, so you become more in-tune with the island. Some are naturally more in tune (like Walt). The island then behaves the way you behave. It reflects your ideals and attitudes. You get to set rules for how things work. So what does a bored person alone on the island do after hundreds or thousands of years? Make up games to entertain himself. The island behaves accordingly and becomes your chessboard.

The Plug in the cave from the finale: Ben's flashback in season 3, the Dharma teacher says there's a volcano on the island. It's never mentioned again, but the writers' podcasts said volcanic activity would heavily figure into the plot "at some point". We saw that the light and water combined in the pool. The light was electromagnetic energy. The EM force held back the seismic pressure, while the water cooled it in the same spot. It was holding back volcanic pressure great enough to destroy the island. Early island generations go into the cave and see this (the skeletons in the source cave), don't understand what it is, and say the light and water are holding back "evil" or "Hell". Generations later, and after many protectors who didn't question it, this myth has become law.

The Ritual: Likewise, the drinking ritual is whatever the protector wants it to be. Eve had Jacob drink from a cup after some sort of prayer. Jacob had Jack drink from another cup, without the prayer. Hurley's was as simple as drinking from a plastic water bottle, but all three of those worked. All of them said "now you're like me" because that's what the last person said. None of these were an "official" way to do it, it's just what they've been told. Every question raised is left to the protector to make it up as they go, and figure out what they'll pass on to the next one.

The Brothers: Jacob and Smokey were under false pretenses through the whole series. Jacob believed the island was holding back "evil", and Smokey believed uncorking it would let him "go home". Jack says "we were both wrong". That mythology had nothing to do with either one. Smokey understood very little, in fact he had to be told by early scientists that channeling the water and light with the wheel would send him elsewhere. As for why the island is what it is, it's only the protector's best guess.

Lost as a TV show: All of this is a metaphor. The specifics of the island mysteries are beyond the two all-knowing guys framing the story, and the final curtain pulled back is that not even they knew what was going on; they told the story as it unfolded, as far as they understood it. (Am I talking about Jacob & Smokey, or Lindelof & Cuse?) Likewise, when it comes to explaining everything, it's up to the limited information told in the story to be expanded on and interpreted by those who received it. (Am I talking about the island inhabitants, or us, the audience?)

So there it is, the one single key to Lost: Nobody knows what the hell is going on.

This is an excellent writeup and I agree wholeheartedly. I came to a similar interpretation after the finale.

I loved how all these big "WE HAVE TO DO X" events through out the show were fueled by this everlasting games of telephone. Eventually they reinforce these philosophies and interpretations enough that the ends always outweigh the means. Yet at the end of the series, the meaningfulness of blowing up x or killing y to stop n from doing z was moot. That's part of why I loved Ben staying behind. Ben was responsible for so much purposeless suffering and still is coping with the true costs of his actions. He still needs his second chance to get the experiences and life his futile ambitions robbed him of.

# ? Jun 24, 2010 22:50

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# ? Jun 16, 2024 08:34

aniero: Oct 11, 2009

EvilTobaccoExec posted:

The problem is that they're not "perfectly viable". At one extreme we have an Occam's Razor explanation that fits perfectly, and the other extreme requires shoehorning in off-screen rewrites and abilities. Dave being the MIB requires some completely unnecessary leaps for little purpose whatsoever. It's a lot more reasonable for Island-Dave to be the exact same thing as Hospital-Dave, the same manifestation that Hurley uses to punish himself. It's far more convoluted and unreasonable for Hospital-Dave to be different from Island-Dave, who is actually MIB using an unmentioned ability to manifest himself as people's imaginary friends without even having to scan them first so he can... convince the fat guy to kill himself?

We know that the Smoke Monster scans people & their memories. We know that the smoke monster can shape shift. We know that Smokey likes to use his ability to read peoples memories/thoughts/whatever and his ability to shapeshift to gently caress with people on the Island. It's not clear what is necessary for Smokey to shpaeshift into something/someone (does he need a body?, was Smokey the Medusa Spiders?, etc).

So, what exactly is the stretch in logic here? 'Cause the evidence you presented (no one noticing Dave when the pallet of magical sky food had everyone's attention & Libby not remembering the slipper) don't necessarily disprove the idea either.

EDIT: Great post Bonk. Great analytical breakdown.

aniero fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jun 25, 2010

# ? Jun 25, 2010 00:55

LooseChanj: Feb 17, 2006; Logicaaaaaaaaal!

aniero posted:

So, what exactly is the stretch in logic here?

Favoring the more complex solution to the simpler one.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 00:58

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

LooseChanj posted:

Favoring the more complex solution to the simpler one.

My only problem with the simpler one is Dave suddenly wanting Hurley dead when previously all he wanted him to do was eat.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 01:02

LooseChanj: Feb 17, 2006; Logicaaaaaaaaal!

LividLiquid posted:

My only problem with the simpler one is Dave suddenly wanting Hurley dead when previously all he wanted him to do was eat.

The island Dave didn't want Hurley *dead*, he was just trying to convince him that was the way out of the "dream". Which fits with the delusion answer.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 01:07

Lycus: Aug 5, 2008; Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.

The closer Hurley got to having sex with his widow, the more extreme Dave's measures became.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 01:16

EvilTobaccoExec: Dec 22, 2003; Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts!

LividLiquid posted:

My only problem with the simpler one is Dave suddenly wanting Hurley dead when previously all he wanted him to do was eat.

Remember that Dave is a manifestation of Hurley's internal dilemmas and feelings. As a manifestation of Hurley's guilt in the mental hospital, Dave wanted him to keep eating because Hurley held himself accountable for the people that died on the balcony. On the island, Hurley is realizing he's gone through some incredibly unlikely and unreasonable things. Aware of his own mental history, Dave comes back because Hurley thinks he's losing touch with reality. "Dave" doesn't want Hurley to kill himself, "Dave" is the part of him that's convinced that the lottery, the crash, the hatch, the girl, and everything else happening to him is some grant illusion. It's that "Dave" is convinced Hurley's insane again, and thinks the only way to wake up from this dreamworld is to "commit suicide" in his fantasy.

aniero posted:

So, what exactly is the stretch in logic here? 'Cause the evidence you presented (no one noticing Dave when the pallet of magical sky food had everyone's attention & Libby not remembering the slipper) don't necessarily disprove the idea either.

Aside from Occam's Razor, the evidence pretty much does disprove the idea. Dave was standing right next to everyone during the palate drop. It's either no one else could see Dave, or that the Man in Black took a major chance that everyone would be so distracted by the palate drop they'd be physically unable to look up during the seconds he was standing there. Seems pretty risky that someone might look up. I bet that would have been awkward.

Furthermore, the slippers themselves are almost evidence of the man in black not being there. We've not known him to be able to manifest an object like that, but Hurley has had physical interactions with objects with Dave. So it's imaginary Dave or it's the Man in Black conjuring slippers. And once the slippers are there, luckily only Hurley can see it or Libby coincidentally missed them.

Even when we don't know the exact rules of the Man in Black transforming, yeah, I'd say it's a pretty big stretch to say that he's also got the power to turn into things that people imagine in their minds, or think is real. 'Cause it seems like that would be pretty useful and have come into play before now. And it's a good thing Hurley wasn't thinking about the Stay-Puff Marshmallow man

It'd be way the gently caress easier to stick to Occam's Razor on this one.

EvilTobaccoExec fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jun 25, 2010

# ? Jun 25, 2010 01:22

aniero: Oct 11, 2009

I think both explanations have merit, though one is slightly more convoluted it's no less valid given what we know about the Smoke Monster in the full context of the show.

Now, Dave being Libby's dead husband is something that is extrapolating without evidence. I'll admit, it kinda fits, but there's nothing besides having the same name and Hurley being able to see dead people that indicate this to be the case.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 01:24

EvilTobaccoExec: Dec 22, 2003; Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts!

aniero posted:

I think both explanations have merit, though one is slightly more convoluted it's no less valid given what we know about the Smoke Monster in the full context of the show.

In the case that "we've never seen him do that before" and "we've never seen him NOT do that before!" are equal, but that's not my opinion, especially because of the mess it makes. Although I guess if that's the "canon" interpretation, that's the "canon" interpretation. I just think it sucks.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 01:27

aniero: Oct 11, 2009

I had to read a little bit about Occam's Razor, so I must admit it's not a concept I'm familiar with by name, but I think I get it.

I see your point about Occam's Razor, but that assumes that the whole show operates on that principle, doesn't it?

I'm not saying that LOST doesn't operate on that principle, but I don't know that it does either. Because I think in some respects you could see LOST as an inversion of that idea that the easier explanation is not necessarily the best.

EDIT: I think I need to put this out there cause I seem to have been posting a lot about the Dave topic, I don't really care one way or the other, I can accept either answer. I just have fun talking about this stuff.

aniero fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Jun 25, 2010

# ? Jun 25, 2010 01:46

redshirt: Aug 11, 2007

Awesome post Bonk. I agree with pretty much everything you said and you said it way more concisely than I ever could.

I really like the emphasis throughout the show on the Telephone Game. It explains so much, and it is a great analogy for life - it's not like many parents really know what they are doing, or are able to pass on wisdom to others. We're all playing Telephone, throughout all of human history, and we still live with some of the stories and morals of yore, though twisted and morphed through the ages and the retelling.

That's what I want to try and explain to folks who didn't like the final because of the so called lack of answers. It's not about the answers, man!

I also love the idea of being able to debate Lost forever. We'll probably never know Eloise's real story or influence on events, and as such, we cam entertain whatever conceivable theories we want. I'm on Team EM.

Edit: Also - Lost = Lack of concrete answers. We're all Lost, and only found when we find each other.

redshirt fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jun 25, 2010

# ? Jun 25, 2010 01:57

Mike the TV: Jan 14, 2008; Ninety-nine ninety-nine ninety-nine; Pillbug

I just rewatched the pilot and had totally forgotten that Locke had brought up backgammon. The connections between the pilot and final season are actually kinda cool.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 04:12

Endless Trash: Aug 12, 2007

redshirt posted:

I also love the idea of being able to debate Lost forever. We'll probably never know Eloise's real story or influence on events, and as such, we cam entertain whatever conceivable theories we want. I'm on Team EM.

I'm on Team He-Was-In-Purgatory-During-Flashes-Before-Your-Eyes.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 04:29

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

FrensaGeran posted:

I'm on Team He-Was-In-Purgatory-During-Flashes-Before-Your-Eyes.

I forgot all about this explanation. It makes so much more sense considering every other time he was hit with EM energy that's exactly what happened.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 04:35

Endless Trash: Aug 12, 2007

It makes sense to me because, okay, he's hit with a big gently caress off radiation surge, which gives him this near death experience. This purgatory place is a place where you can be with your loved ones, so he wakes up and he's with Penny and everything is great but then Eloise is like "Uh no, the island isn't done with you" and he gets hit on the head and wakes up naked in the jungle.

Plus, we're to enquire: how does radiation send him to the afterlife in "Happily Ever After"? Why does that happen? Where did that connection come from.

I think this is as good an answer as any. He had been there before.

e: PLUS the title even hints at it. When does your life 'flash before your eyes'? In purgatory, stupid.

e3: \/ \/ Yeah, especially with all the little hints that are a little more than coincidence. Like the microwave timer having the numbers and the same sound, which gives him this momentary flash of memory of his REAL life. Which is pretty much exactly what happened every time someone started to remember in the season 6 finale. Little hints to their actual lives eventually wake them up.

Endless Trash fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jun 25, 2010

# ? Jun 25, 2010 04:41

Mike the TV: Jan 14, 2008; Ninety-nine ninety-nine ninety-nine; Pillbug

FrensaGeran posted:

I'm on Team He-Was-In-Purgatory-During-Flashes-Before-Your-Eyes.

I actually thought that's what was happening when I first saw the episode. :v:

The whole thing felt really surreal and other-worldly compared to normal flashbacks for some reason.

It also makes way more sense to me and I will believe it even though it's a different "reality" to the "real" purgatory.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 04:42

Jealous Cow: Apr 4, 2002; by Fluffdaddy

FrensaGeran posted:

I'm on Team He-Was-In-Purgatory-During-Flashes-Before-Your-Eyes.

Well, look at the title of the episode.

Your whole life...

# ? Jun 25, 2010 04:57

microwave casserole: Jul 5, 2005; my god, what are you doing

Jealous Cow posted:

Well, look at the title of the episode.

Your whole life...

...And Desmond's catchphrase is...

"I'll see you in another life, brother."

(I swear to God this show finds a new way to blow my mind every few days, and it's been over for about a month now.)

# ? Jun 25, 2010 06:37

Hipster_Doofus: Dec 20, 2003; Lovin' every minute of it.

microwave casserole posted:

(I swear to God this show finds a new way to blow my mind every few days, and it's been over for about a month now.)

This. There's so mother loving much of it on so many levels and it's like the discovery will never end. On the one hand, it seems to be very good evidence that Darlton really did have a shitload planned out from very early on, if not the beginning. Otoh, it's so loving extraordinary that it is sometimes hard to believe they (and the writers of course) were actually that good at their craft.

Personally, I think they were, and hopefully will be again and produce the next great epic serial (just not on a major network please; being able to cuss helps so much with realism).

# ? Jun 25, 2010 07:00

aniero: Oct 11, 2009

I love that theroy. I love this show.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 07:44

Some Strange Flea: Apr 9, 2010; AAA; Pillbug

Ah ha ha ha. The "violation" that Eloise was talking about in Happily Ever After?

There is no time in purgatory, and yet Desmond pretty clearly managed get there before dying. Because the rules don't apply to him.

Yesssssssssssss.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 11:16

Borrowed Ladder: May 4, 2007; monarch of the sleeping marches

Did Jack ever find out that Ben killed Locke? Jack and Ben were separated for almost the entirety of season 6. I think a major part of Jack's motivation and belief in Locke was because he thought he killed himself.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 13:52

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

The catalyst for Desmond to travel to "purgatory" was when Weedmohr threw him into the EM chamber, right?

VVVV

Some Strange Flea posted:

Widmore

Who is this "Widmore"?

euphronius fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Jun 25, 2010

# ? Jun 25, 2010 13:56

Some Strange Flea: Apr 9, 2010; AAA; Pillbug

euphronius posted:

The catalyst for Desmond to travel to "purgatory" was when Weedmohr threw him into the EM chamber, right?

No, it was when Widmore threw him into the EM chamber.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 14:07

marktheando: Nov 4, 2006

I've just been reading the X-Files thread and rewatched the Screenwipe special on tv writing and the combined effect has just made me a lot more appreciative of what the Lost writers have achieved. Reading how Fox overruled the writers when they wanted to resolve the conspiracy storyline in season 5, and forced them to string it out for another four seasons.... It makes me very thankful for the negotiated end date for Lost, and the freedom given to it's writers. Without those things, I probably would have stopped watching Lost way before the end, just like I did with the X-Files.

It's actually pretty amazing that the end of Lost was so satisfying and made as much sense as it did.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 18:48

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

LividLiquid posted:

Can we at least be honest enough with ourselves to admit that the writers just plain ol' didn't know yet? It can still be an awesome show without literally everything being planned out in advance.

See also: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

Time travel arcs like the one in Lost need to be planned though, otherwise they will most likely turn into convoluted messes (see heroes). I find it hard to believe that they didn't have something in mind for Eloise when they introduced her.

Wyld Cannon posted:

I think that the real storyline that they knew the outcome the whole time was the Locke arc. I just rewatched There's No Place Like Home Pt. 1, and when Locke is in the Cabin with Christian and says, "I'm here. . .because I was chosen to be" and Christian replies "That's absolutely right" you can really feel that he's playing Smokey from within Christian, as he was chosen to be the loophole. Maybe I'm just retroactively feeling that, since John Terry may have not even known that's what he was doing, but I gotta believe that's what the writers were going for.

I believe that they had planned on the show culminating into a Locke vs. Jack conflict from the very beginning. You could tell that it was building as early as season 1, and became even more apparent in season 2. Then in season 3, Locke becomes the leader of Others, in opposition to Jack. Something tells me that they didn't originally intend for Locke to become Smokey though. I have a feeling they did this because they realised that Locke was the most sympathetic and popular character on the show, and Jack had become unlikeable. Hence, Locke made a bad antagonist for Jack, since most people were rooting for Locke. So they turned him into the smoke monster and basically made him the MIB in Locke's form. I kind of wish they kept it as real Locke though. Locke was a much better character.

FrensaGeran posted:

It makes sense to me because, okay, he's hit with a big gently caress off radiation surge, which gives him this near death experience. This purgatory place is a place where you can be with your loved ones, so he wakes up and he's with Penny and everything is great but then Eloise is like "Uh no, the island isn't done with you" and he gets hit on the head and wakes up naked in the jungle.

Plus, we're to enquire: how does radiation send him to the afterlife in "Happily Ever After"? Why does that happen? Where did that connection come from.

I think this is as good an answer as any. He had been there before.

e: PLUS the title even hints at it. When does your life 'flash before your eyes'? In purgatory, stupid.

e3: \/ \/ Yeah, especially with all the little hints that are a little more than coincidence. Like the microwave timer having the numbers and the same sound, which gives him this momentary flash of memory of his REAL life. Which is pretty much exactly what happened every time someone started to remember in the season 6 finale. Little hints to their actual lives eventually wake them up.

This is a cool theory that I haven't thought of and makes a lot of sense. The only problem I have with it is that in some of those flashbacks he visits Faraday, and, if I remember correctly, Faraday recalls the meeting later on, on the island. But then, Desmond is Faraday's constant so maybe it makes sense that he would remember.

Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jun 26, 2010

# ? Jun 25, 2010 20:45

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

Bonk posted:

For a lot of "answers" on this show, it's not that hard to extrapolate or take it at face value. However there are a lot of things in the setup of the mythology where I found myself a little pissed for not getting an answer, either because they left us hanging, or because they introduced something deliberately weird without ever intending on revisiting it. Combining a couple things from previous posts, and adding a little more to it, I came up with an explanation for Lost that I, personally, can live with; whether people agree with me or not. Some of you might, some might not, but this is the one for me.

The reason we didn't get the answers to a lot of the island mysteries: Simply because there is nobody alive or dead who could actually convey that information to us. We were only ever told the story through the characters. The island is so old (older than Man), and it's been through so many regime changes that nobody actually knows the full story, and nobody ever could. Every season we were introduced to someone supposedly all-knowing. Dharma, The Others, Ben, Richard, Jacob, Smokey, and finally "Eve". ALL of them spoke cryptically, and as time went on it became evident that none of them completely knew what the island was, or had received misinformation about it. Eve wasn't the first; she ended up there by accident too.

Mythology: Lost was a show heavy on mythos and religious symbolism. And what are myth and religion? Tradition passed down through the ages, embellished, corrupted, facts omitted, evidence edited and retranslated, and shaped depending on the teller and their personal motivations. It's like the world's biggest game of telephone. You crash on a crazy island due to the protector trying to find a replacement. They just barely impart what little information they know onto you, perform some kind of initiation ritual, then they die. Repeat ad nauseam. Sometimes a lot of information is probably exchanged, sometimes probably very little at all.

The Source: By drinking the source water, you apparently get "a little more" of the life source (EM-infused water, apparently) that Eve spoke of all men desiring, so you become more in-tune with the island. Some are naturally more in tune (like Walt). The island then behaves the way you behave. It reflects your ideals and attitudes. You get to set rules for how things work. So what does a bored person alone on the island do after hundreds or thousands of years? Make up games to entertain himself. The island behaves accordingly and becomes your chessboard.

The Plug in the cave from the finale: Ben's flashback in season 3, the Dharma teacher says there's a volcano on the island. It's never mentioned again, but the writers' podcasts said volcanic activity would heavily figure into the plot "at some point". We saw that the light and water combined in the pool. The light was electromagnetic energy. The EM force held back the seismic pressure, while the water cooled it in the same spot. It was holding back volcanic pressure great enough to destroy the island. Early island generations go into the cave and see this (the skeletons in the source cave), don't understand what it is, and say the light and water are holding back "evil" or "Hell". Generations later, and after many protectors who didn't question it, this myth has become law.

The Ritual: Likewise, the drinking ritual is whatever the protector wants it to be. Eve had Jacob drink from a cup after some sort of prayer. Jacob had Jack drink from another cup, without the prayer. Hurley's was as simple as drinking from a plastic water bottle, but all three of those worked. All of them said "now you're like me" because that's what the last person said. None of these were an "official" way to do it, it's just what they've been told. Every question raised is left to the protector to make it up as they go, and figure out what they'll pass on to the next one.

The Brothers: Jacob and Smokey were under false pretenses through the whole series. Jacob believed the island was holding back "evil", and Smokey believed uncorking it would let him "go home". Jack says "we were both wrong". That mythology had nothing to do with either one. Smokey understood very little, in fact he had to be told by early scientists that channeling the water and light with the wheel would send him elsewhere. As for why the island is what it is, it's only the protector's best guess.

Lost as a TV show: All of this is a metaphor. The specifics of the island mysteries are beyond the two all-knowing guys framing the story, and the final curtain pulled back is that not even they knew what was going on; they told the story as it unfolded, as far as they understood it. (Am I talking about Jacob & Smokey, or Lindelof & Cuse?) Likewise, when it comes to explaining everything, it's up to the limited information told in the story to be expanded on and interpreted by those who received it. (Am I talking about the island inhabitants, or us, the audience?)

So there it is, the one single key to Lost: Nobody knows what the hell is going on.

I like this interpretation a lot because it reconciles the science side when it seems the show ends very clearly with a faith based ending. Finding answers through science is an ongoing quest that seemingly never has an end, because it always leads to more questions. In the end, if you want to explain existence, you will always have to resort to faith. The island was a metaphor for our understanding of the universe.

# ? Jun 25, 2010 21:17

Borrowed Ladder: May 4, 2007; monarch of the sleeping marches

Gianthogweed posted:

I believe that they had planned on the show culminating into a Locke vs. Jack conflict from the very beginning. You could tell that it was building as early as season 1, and became even more apparent in season 2. Then in season 3, Locke becomes the leader of Others, in opposition to Jack. Something tells me that they didn't originally intend for Locke to become Smokey though. I have a feeling they did this because they realised that Locke was the most sympathetic and popular character on the show, and Jack had become unlikeable. Hence, Locke made a bad antagonist for Jack, since most people were rooting for Locke. So they turned him into the smoke monster and basically made him the MIB in Locke's form. I kind of wish they kept it as real Locke though. Locke was a much better character.

But they never wrote Locke to be a bad guy, so if they wanted him to be the heel why did they never foreshadow this? It's not like they were surprised in season 4 and went "Oh poo poo we forgot to make Locke bad!"

# ? Jun 25, 2010 21:42

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

Wyld Cannon posted:

But they never wrote Locke to be a bad guy, so if they wanted him to be the heel why did they never foreshadow this? It's not like they were surprised in season 4 and went "Oh poo poo we forgot to make Locke bad!"

I don't know if it was ever their intention to make him bad, as much as it was to make him blinded by his beliefs in doing what he thought was right, ie backstabbing Naomi because he felt that he was doing the right thing. Antagonists don't always have to be evil. I could be wrong, but I just have a feeling that it wasn't initially their intention to make MIB the bad guy in Locke's body.

Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jun 25, 2010

# ? Jun 25, 2010 21:55

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

Bad Sun posted:

The "making something happen by trying to change the past so it DOESN'T happen" is a pretty common trope in science fiction, and a powerful one. Sayid tried to kill Ben to prevent him from growing up to be a huge rear end in a top hat, but ended up causing him to grow up in that fashion in the first place. The 815ers blew up a nuclear bomb to prevent the Incident, and ended up causing it (something which they recognized as a possibility before they did it).

Yes, exactly, the thing that makes Lost time travel somewhat unique within this trope is the idea of course correction, where changes made in the past will not change the overall outcome. They played with the idea of "throwing a boulder into the stream" to alter the course of time with the nuke plan, but it didn't seem to work. But we were led to believe that it did. This was tied to the fate vs. freewill themes that have been part of the show from the beginning.

Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jun 25, 2010

# ? Jun 25, 2010 22:30

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Gianthogweed posted:

This is a cool theory that I haven't thought of and makes a lot of sense. The only problem I have with it is that in some of those flashbacks he visits Faraday, and, if I remember correctly, Faraday recalls them later on, on the island. But then, Desmond is Faraday's constant so maybe it makes sense that he would remember.

But that wasn't one of the times he was hit by an EM burst. That was when he left the Island's bubble. One's consciousness can travel through time as we learned from Faraday's mouse. Desmond's has traveled both to the past and to the pre-afterlife. The trick is figuring out which is which.

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:00

mobn: May 23, 2005; by Ozmaugh

Wyld Cannon posted:

But they never wrote Locke to be a bad guy, so if they wanted him to be the heel why did they never foreshadow this? It's not like they were surprised in season 4 and went "Oh poo poo we forgot to make Locke bad!"

There are no bad guys, only conflicting goals.

edit: except Keamy, but he's a bit player.

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:12

doctor iono: May 19, 2005; I LARVA YOU

Gianthogweed posted:

I don't know if it was ever their intention to make him bad, as much as it was to make him blinded by his beliefs in doing what he thought was right, ie backstabbing Naomi because he felt that he was doing the right thing. Antagonists don't always have to be evil. I could be wrong, but I just have a feeling that it wasn't initially their intention to make MIB the bad guy in Locke's body.

But he was right. I thought one of the major points of Jack's character arc over the course of the series is realizing that Locke was right about a lot of stuff, and he could do well by being a lot like him... just better.

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:14

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

doctor iono posted:

But he was right. I thought one of the major points of Jack's character arc over the course of the series is realizing that Locke was right about a lot of stuff, and he could do well by being a lot like him... just better.

Was he? You never really get the feeling that MIB was really wrong either. Sure he did some bad things, but he just wanted to get off the island. Actually, it turned out both of them wrong in the end. Hurley was right.

Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jun 26, 2010

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:27

The Saddest Robot: Apr 17, 2007

LividLiquid posted:

But that wasn't one of the times he was hit by an EM burst. That was when he left the Island's bubble. One's consciousness can travel through time as we learned from Faraday's mouse. Desmond's has traveled both to the past and to the pre-afterlife. The trick is figuring out which is which.

What if Eloise the mouse got sent to purgatory and learned how to solve the maze there?

:lost:

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:38

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Gianthogweed posted:

Was he? You never really get the feeling that MIB was really wrong either. Sure he did some bad things, but he just wanted to get off the island. Actually, it turned out both of them wrong in the end. Hurley was right.

What show did you watch? Because it sounds like you were watching some other show. Smokey was unambiguously evil.

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:43

marktheando: Nov 4, 2006

doctor iono posted:

But he was right. I thought one of the major points of Jack's character arc over the course of the series is realizing that Locke was right about a lot of stuff, and he could do well by being a lot like him... just better.

Exactly. The Jacob replacement needed to have faith in the island, but Locke had too much blind faith and so was easy prey for Smokey's manipulations. And Ben's manipulations, and his father's manipulations... So Jack needed to get to a place where he could make that leap of faith, and that was the journey his character made over the course of the series.

euphronius posted:

What show did you watch? Because it sounds like you were watching some other show. Smokey was unambiguously evil.

Yes, I mean I can understand people having sympathy for MIB wanting to leave the island but to say he wasn't in the wrong is just ludicrous. He killed absolutely loads of innocent people, and didn't give a gently caress that him leaving the island might have disastrous consequences. He lied and manipulated and murdered and terrorised throughout the series. The ends do not justify the means, especially if the ends (leaving the island) might kill everyone on the planet.

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:52

EvilTobaccoExec: Dec 22, 2003; Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts!

euphronius posted:

What show did you watch? Because it sounds like you were watching some other show. Smokey was unambiguously evil.

You're 100% wrong. I still don't know how people follow this line of thinking after watching Across the Sea which was all about make MIB sympathetic. The creators were being misquoted in that interview where they say he's the main ANTAGONIST which was right before before Across the Sea. They cleared it up in the interview they gave immediately after Across the Sea, and flat out said "everyone is gray", you are suppose to empathize with the man in black.

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:53

redshirt: Aug 11, 2007

Gianthogweed posted:

Was he? You never really get the feeling that MIB was really wrong either. Sure he did some bad things, but he just wanted to get off the island. Actually, it turned out both of them wrong in the end. Hurley was right.

Well, ultimately John was right, because it was he who first realized what the Island was, and began listening to the Island, letting it lead him wherever. He gave himself to the Island, rather to the real world that everyone else was so desperate to get back to, for no good reason - for instance, Kate? You really want to go back to the real world, to jail?

That said, Locke was wrong about a ton of stuff, and really messed things up, and in his ever present naivete, allowed himself to always be someone's pawn. It's sad really, but then you watch episodes like Enter 77, where he simply cannot stop playing computer chess, even though there's all kinds of dangerous stuff going down around him. He's a fool - The Fool?

Nah - that's pretty clearly Hurley, right?

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:55

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# ? Jun 16, 2024 08:34

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

EvilTobaccoExec posted:

You're 100% wrong. I still don't know how people follow this line of thinking after watching Across the Sea which was all about make MIB sympathetic. The creators were being misquoted in that interview where they say he's the main ANTAGONIST which was right before before Across the Sea. They cleared it up in the interview they gave immediately after Across the Sea, and flat out said "everyone is gray", you are suppose to empathize with the man in black.

All humans may be gray, and we do have sympathy for pre death Smokey, but post death smokey is 100 percent evil.

# ? Jun 26, 2010 00:57

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > LOST Postmortem - "You can let go now."

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