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Johnny B. Goode posted:No this is really dumb. They simply hadn't found the main person they wanted to play Jacob yet. The guy in the Cabin was absolutely the MiB. However I don't know, nor is it important, who is in that picture. poo poo he looks like Lupidas to me.
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Jun 30, 2010 17:59
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Johnny B. Goode posted:No this is really dumb. They simply hadn't found the main person they wanted to play Jacob yet. Why would the force manipulating Locke be Jacob one time and Smokey every other time? Why would Jacob break his non-intervention policy to talk to Locke? Why would Jacob hang out in the Cabin when it has been compromised by Smokey?
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Jun 30, 2010 18:01
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Johnny B. Goode posted:...and Claire, who is infected by him... I have a question. What kind of infection can be cured by a good talking to? 
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Jun 30, 2010 18:13
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Ak Gara posted:I have a question. The Mondays. That is why Smokey had to be kept on the Island. If he got out, we'd have the Mondays all day, every day.
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Jun 30, 2010 18:34
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Sepinwall posted a month-after review that highlights some pretty interesting things: http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/lost-the-end-a-re-review
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Jun 30, 2010 19:38
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Bobx66 posted:The guy in the Cabin was absolutely the MiB. However I don't know, nor is it important, who is in that picture. poo poo he looks like Lupidas to me. This is why I hate this thread so much. Ok let's make it simple. You have two options 1) The Man in Black can be two different people at once, something he never did again, nor referred to. 2) The show-runners had no need for a contracted actor to play Jacob yet, so they put one of the folks involved with production in the chair, made it hard to see the figure, and intended to cast someone later.
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Jun 30, 2010 19:46
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Wyld Cannon posted:But you're still assuming that if Smokey left the world would end. There was nothing in the show that made that a concrete fact. It was just part of the mythology that everyone assumed, which is why the Telephone analogy makes perfect sense.  Hello, Wyld Cannon. My name is Isabella. And you know, I've never heard of a telephone game. Hell, before I died in the late 19th century, I didn't know what a telephone was. I also didn't know anything at all about an Island, a Source, a Man in Black, a man named Jacob. None of it. And yet, you see, a century or so after my death my beloved husband came wandering out of the forest looking for my necklace. He wished to speak with the Man in Black, who promised that service to him would give him back his wife, me. My poor husband did not realize this was impossible. But alas, who could blame him? He was bereft with grief, and just like you, saw Jacob and the Smoke Monster as two different but two ambiguously motivated people. He saw all the damage Jacob's game had done and thought his life was wasted on nothing of any great importance. Maybe the Man in Black was right, he thought, maybe this is just an Island and maybe they were both trapped there needlessly. He forgot about love. He forgot about emotion. He forgot about the basic structure upon which the entire Lost narrative (ok I'm done talking like Isabella) was built around. The candidates in purgatory woke up through LOVE. Love is unambiguously good. So when Isabella tells Richard, who is going through the same moral relativism trip that people in this thread are going through, that stopping the Man in Black from leaving the island is of the UTMOST IMPORTANCE, believe her. Either she's an untainted source of information, information brought about by love, or Jacob payed her and Michael The Ghost in Ghost Money to lie so she could go to the Ghost Store and buy a Ghost Purse.
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Jun 30, 2010 19:49
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Johnny B. Goode posted:This is why I hate this thread so much. But for the guy to be Jacob would require that Jacob can shape shift, something he never did again, nor referred to... The guy in the cabin with 'Christian' was probably just a ghost.
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Jun 30, 2010 20:12
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Johnny B. Goode posted:This is why I hate this thread so much. Dude, the cabin had not been occupied by Jacob during Oceanic 815's time on the island. The Man in Black appeared to Eko as Yemi and has appeared as multiple other people since appearing as Christian on the Beach. He was not allowed to take on another form after Locke, he was stuck after Locke, not before. Jacob was never in the cabin. poo poo, look at Lostpedia: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cabin The cabin built by Horace Goodspeed and inhabited by The Man in Black You are dead wrong. The actor who appeared to hurley in one frame of the 3rd season has no significance whatsoever.
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Jun 30, 2010 20:13
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marktheando posted:But for the guy to be Jacob would require that Jacob can shape shift, something he never did again, nor referred to... Weird that the psych ward dude can shapeshift though. Must think about this some more...
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Jun 30, 2010 20:47
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Has anyone considered the possibility that Illana was looking for Richard at the cabin? That is who she asked for at the foot after all, and it would make sense that Richard had been using the cabin to meet with Jacob. That would explain why Ben thought that's where to find Jacob, and the ring of ash (to keep out the MiB when Jacob and Richard met there). Edit: Also, I think Locke loving with the ash is what broke the circle and allowed the MiB to get in.
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Jun 30, 2010 21:02
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Mike the TV posted:Weird that the psych ward dude can shapeshift though. Must think about this some more... You mean this guy? http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dr._Brooks He was only ever played by the one actor.
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Jun 30, 2010 21:04
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LooseChanj posted:Has anyone considered the possibility that Illana was looking for Richard at the cabin? That is who she asked for at the foot after all, and it would make sense that Richard had been using the cabin to meet with Jacob. That would explain why Ben thought that's where to find Jacob, and the ring of ash (to keep out the MiB when Jacob and Richard met there). This is awesome. But maybe there's more of a connection here. Remember, Goodspeed built the Cabin. A getaway from the old D.I. What if he built it as a meeting place between him, Richard, and Jacob during the 1980s? The Dharma Initiative was the largest movement of people the island had seen in a long time. Surely Jacob and the Smoke Monster were deeply involved, just as they were with Oceanic 815. There's lots of D.I. names on the Cave Wall. Maybe Jacob thought Goodwin would make a good Protector, as long as he displayed he could manage a lot of people to peaceably live with very different people. That didn't really go down so well. I like to think Goodspeed was more in touch with the mythology of the show. I mean, the tunnels go right under his basement, and surely he must've noticed the Smokey Summoning Room in his secret foyer. e:gently caress Endless Trash fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jul 1, 2010 |
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Jun 30, 2010 21:15
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FrensaGeran posted:This is awesome. But maybe there's more of a connection here. Goodwin didn't build the cabin you rear end in a top hat!!!  just kidding I know you mean Goodspeed. And the whole Isabella thing is kinda iffy if you ask me. What was she even doing on the island? Borrowed Ladder fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jun 30, 2010 |
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Jun 30, 2010 21:32
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Wyld Cannon posted:Goodwin didn't build the cabin you rear end in a top hat!!! The Island is the Source of Life and Death. The ghosts beyond anything should be unbiased, unambiguous confirmation of this. And yes I meant Goodspeed. I hate you.
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Jun 30, 2010 21:40
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marktheando posted:You mean this guy? http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dr._Brooks In season 4 when Jack went back to break Hurley out, it was definitely a different actor. Unless they wanted to say it was another person working there that looks and sounds annoyingly similar. Edit: Ok according to lostpedia his name is Dr. Stillman. http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dr._Stillman Mike the TV fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jun 30, 2010 |
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Jun 30, 2010 23:17
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marktheando posted:But for the guy to be Jacob would require that Jacob can shape shift, something he never did again, nor referred to... Hahahahha what???? Are you incapable of conceiving the idea that some shows will cast actors in minor roles and then replace them with an actual cast member once needed? Bobx66 posted:Dude, the cabin had not been occupied by Jacob during Oceanic 815's time on the island. The Man in Black appeared to Eko as Yemi and has appeared as multiple other people since appearing as Christian on the Beach. He was not allowed to take on another form after Locke, he was stuck after Locke, not before. Jacob was never in the cabin. You're an imbecile. The Man in Black was stuck as Locke after Jacob died, which was after season 3 and 4, when we saw Ben and Locke and Hurley, Locke, and Ben visit it, respectively. You have no idea whether or not Jacob was in the cabin or not, and in fact, the scene in "The Man Behind the Curtain" absolutely suggests that it was Jacob. In the season 4 episode, we see Christian (smokey) and another figure, who probably was Jacob, as we have seen that they talk to each other when they feel like it (The Incident part 1, Ab Aeterno, Across the Sea). All of what I said has nothing to do with the Man in Black appearing to Eko as Yemi, so I have no idea how that supports any critique you have of what I said. Unless you're assuming that I said that MiB can't shape shift, which I never said that. In fact I said the opposite.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:29
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Johnny B. Goode posted:the scene in "The Man Behind the Curtain" absolutely suggests that it was Jacob No poo poo, that's called "misdirection". And it worked because at the time we knew nothing about Jacob. Now that we know more, it's certain that wasn't Jacob.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:39
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LooseChanj posted:No poo poo, that's called "misdirection". And it worked because at the time we knew nothing about Jacob. Now that we know more, it's certain that wasn't Jacob. No. You think it was misdirection. I agree that the second time Locke went into the cabin, it was misdirection. But the ash around the cabin made it pretty blatant that the monster couldn't get in.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:45
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There was a breach in the ash fence.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:46
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euphronius posted:There was a breach in the ash fence. It wasn't there the first time.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:47
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Johnny B. Goode posted:No. You think it was misdirection. I agree that the second time Locke went into the cabin, it was misdirection. But the ash around the cabin made it pretty blatant that the monster couldn't get in. So Jacob had the power to become invisible? Cuz that's what you're saying.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:48
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LooseChanj posted:No poo poo, that's called "misdirection". And it worked because at the time we knew nothing about Jacob. Now that we know more, it's certain that wasn't Jacob. Agreed. Jacob didn't need Locke's help. Nor did he ever announce that he needed Locke's help. The person who needed Locke's help was the Man in Black. The Man in Black did not assume Locke's body until the end of Season 5. Note the timing of the reveal of the fact that Locke was not Locke coincided with Illana finding the Cabin and saying "He isn't here and hasn't been in a long time." Jacob was never in the cabin, as far as we know the living Jacob has only talked to one man that he brought to the island and that was Richard, outside the statue. Where he lives. Not in the cabin. Johnny: You are the only person who thinks Jacob was in the cabin.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:50
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LooseChanj posted:So Jacob had the power to become invisible? Cuz that's what you're saying. Yes. He also has the power to either teleport thousands of miles across the globe, or to project himself that far.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:51
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Johnny B. Goode posted:It wasn't there the first time. How do you know? At no point did we ever see anyone break the circle, we just saw that it was broken. Jacob didn't need Locke's help at all, end of discussion.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:51
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Bobx66 posted:Agreed. Jacob didn't need Locke's help. Nor did he ever announce that he needed Locke's help. The person who needed Locke's help was the Man in Black. Yes the Man in Black took Locke's form in season 5. What does this have to do with anything? Go back and rewatch the show I think you're getting confused about minor details. Also your best argument for "Jacob was never in the cabin" comes down to the producers not having the foresight to cast Mark Pellegrino in season 3. quote:Johnny: You are the only person who thinks Jacob was in the cabin. And you're doing a terrible job of explaining yourself otherwise. Bobx66 posted:How do you know? At no point did we ever see anyone break the circle, we just saw that it was broken. Jacob didn't need Locke's help at all, end of discussion. I know. He obviously didn't. He should have stayed dead and not worried about the candidates coming back to 2007.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:54
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Johnny B. Goode posted:1) The Man in Black can be two different people at once, something he never did again, nor referred to. Wrong. The MIB appeared as several other people and switched back and forth between Christian and Yemi prior to becoming Locke. At the point that Jacob died he was stuck as Locke. Considering all of the visits to the cabin happened prior to Jacob dying it could have been the smoke monster. Johnny B. Goode posted:the scene in "The Man Behind the Curtain" absolutely suggests that it was Jacob. In the season 4 episode, we see Christian (smokey) and another figure, who probably was Jacob, as we have seen that they talk to each other when they feel like it (The Incident part 1, Ab Aeterno, Across the Sea). Wrong, and wrong. the "help me" scene was misdirection. Jacob never directly talked to any of his candidates on the island per his policy of "not interfeering. Also wrong as there was only one man in the cabin. Just because there was a quick cut to an eye doesnt mean there were two people there. Johnny B. Goode posted:I know. He obviously didn't. He should have stayed dead and not worried about the candidates coming back to 2007. What the gently caress are you getting at? Yes Locke was a candidate. No he was not special, and no Jacob did not need John Locke's express help.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:07
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Bobx66 posted:At no point did we ever see anyone break the circle We saw Locke "disturb" the ash, which might be enough. In fact, I think that's the most logical place for it to have happened.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:11
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Johnny B. Goode posted:Hahahahha what???? This does happen, but the guy in the cabin is not an example of it. The Cabin has been shown to be Smokey's hangout. Every other time we have seen it Smokey was there. If Jacob wanted something he could talk to Richard, he didn't need to talk to Locke in the cabin. Jacob was organising Ilana and her crew, visiting candidates, he didn't need Locke's help. And if he did, he was certainly capable of asking for it directly. He had no interest in messing with Locke's head (and Ben's) in a way that directly helped Smokey by acting like a spooky ghost and asking for help. This was part of Smokey's manipulation of Locke and Ben. Remember what happened immediately after this- Ben shoots Locke and leaves him for dead. All part of Smokey's plan.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:17
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Bobx66 posted:Wrong. The MIB appeared as several other people and switched back and forth between Christian and Yemi prior to becoming Locke. At the point that Jacob died he was stuck as Locke. Considering all of the visits to the cabin happened prior to Jacob dying it could have been the smoke monster. Can you read? I said in order for it to be the smoke monster the second time, he would have had to have been two separate individuals: Christian and the guy who peers at Hugo. I agree that Christian was the smoke monster, but the other guy certainly wasn't, and he was probably Jacob. Jesus. quote:Wrong, and wrong. the "help me" scene was misdirection. Jacob never directly talked to any of his candidates on the island per his policy of "not interfeering. Also wrong as there was only one man in the cabin. Just because there was a quick cut to an eye doesnt mean there were two people there. Once again you're a loving imbecile who doesn't read. The second time was when there were two people. The first time there was only a slight glimpse of someone who was not Mark Pellegrino. This does not mean it wasn't Jacob. In fact, it pretty much had to be Jacob since the ash out front kept the monster out. It was Jacob. He only whispered to Locke because of his policy of non-interventionism. He didn't straight up come out and say "HEY GUYS I'M JACOB LOOK OUT SMOKEY IS FAKING DEAD CHARACTERS" because he had that policy. quote:What the gently caress are you getting at? Yes Locke was a candidate. No he was not special, and no Jacob did not need John Locke's express help. He was special. There are characters on the show who were identified as being special. Three off of the top of my head were Locke, Walt, and Hugo.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:20
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OK bud you win. You won the argument and really changed my mind. You handled yourself like a grown up in this argument and I commend you for it. Incase anyone was wondering what Johnny's opinion on who was in the Cabin please let be known that he thinks it was Jacob.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:23
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marktheando posted:This does happen, but the guy in the cabin is not an example of it. That's your opinion, but not a fact of course. quote:The Cabin has been shown to be Smokey's hangout. Not true. It had ash all the way around it, and since we'd seen smokey outside since the Pilot, it was obviously to keep him out -- not to keep him in. quote:Every other time we have seen it Smokey was there. Except for the first time. quote:If Jacob wanted something he could talk to Richard, he didn't need to talk to Locke in the cabin. Jacob was organising Ilana and her crew, visiting candidates, he didn't need Locke's help. If this were the case, then why would there be ash around the thing in the first place? If there was no purpose for the cabin, why was he there at one point? quote:He had no interest in messing with Locke's head (and Ben's) in a way that directly helped Smokey by acting like a spooky ghost and asking for help. If he were a man with god-like powers to the point where he could see how things would unfold, he absolutely would need to make Locke believe he is special, and put him in a position where he could take the leadership role form Ben. quote:This was part of Smokey's manipulation of Locke and Ben. I absolutely believe this is true for the second visit to the cabin. quote:Remember what happened immediately after this- Ben shoots Locke and leaves him for dead. All part of Smokey's plan. No, part of Smokey's plan was for Locke to go and turn that wheel (which he directly told him to do), so that time traveling could occur, so that he could appear as Locke, so that the pieces would fall in place (Alex being murdered and appearing to Ben) so that he could directly order for Ben to murder Jacob. A dead Locke would have been absolutely useless to the MiB. In fact, he pretty much confirmed that he had a master plan to set that in motion when he told Jacob, "Do you have any idea what it took me to be here." I don't think Ben murdering Locke in season 3 would have allowed that plan to take place.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:28
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Bobx66 posted:OK bud you win. You won the argument and really changed my mind. You handled yourself like a grown up in this argument and I commend you for it. Incase anyone was wondering what Johnny's opinion on who was in the Cabin please let be known that he thinks it was Jacob. Yes silly me for going on and reading discussions about a third time-line, that "Flashes Before Your Eyes" actually takes place in the Afterlife (latter isn't all that terrible), which both have zero grounds for theory in the show, which both have an even greater disconnect than the fairly reasonable premise I laid out. Silly me for coming up with this theory after my second re-watch. You are right to say that making the cabin scenes make sense isn't a huge priority within the needs of watching the show. But to call my theory unreasonable while this thread goes on daily about stupid poo poo with zero grounding... Well it is the Lost thread after all.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:30
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I mean think about what this does to Ben- 'Jacob' who has never talked to him, the supposed leader, asks John Locke for help. It furthers Smokey's scheme because it sets Locke up to be the 'special' leader of the others, and it makes Ben angry at Jacob. So that 'Locke' can get to Jacob and Ben will be ready to kill Jacob. Smokey doesn't take a chance of Locke being killed- he knows he can't be because he hasn't time travelled yet.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:33
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marktheando posted:I mean think about what this does to Ben- 'Jacob' who has never talked to him, the supposed leader, asks John Locke for help. It furthers Smokey's scheme because it sets Locke up to be the 'special' leader of the others, and it makes Ben angry at Jacob. So that 'Locke' can get to Jacob and Ben will be ready to kill Jacob. This is actually a good point, but it works both ways. Locke was a candidate. He was actually probably the best candidate until he died, which then he probably was the second most important because he influenced Jack to become Locke part deus. Anyway, Jacob never met Ben for reasons unknown, probably because Ben dethroned Widmore or whatever. The point is that it could easily be just the opposite, that Jacob needs a new leader for his followers and prefers Locke over Ben. quote:Smokey doesn't take a chance of Locke being killed- he knows he can't be because he hasn't time travelled yet. Yes but if Smokey could see into the future, then he would have known that he gets destroyed by Jack and Kate at the end of the show. I don't think he can do that. The only reason he knew to tell Richard to tell Locke to give the compass to Richard is that he had Locke's memories post-Bentham episode.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:40
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Yeah it was definitely Smokey, saying "Help Me", as in, "Help me by dying so I can use your body to meet Jacob". Later, as Locke is lying in the ditch bleeding, he's visited by Walt and is given the order to murder an unarmed woman named Naomi, something completely UN-Locke, and obviously UN-Walt. How very Smoke Monster-esque to appear as a trusted ally, under the flag of servitude to the island, that is basically "go and kill this person". So yeah, I think the person in the Cabin in "Man Behind the Curtain" was Smokey. As for the season 4 Cabin...I have no clue who that is. I always thought it looked like Locke, you know? Christian/Smokey telegraphing to Hurley and the audience that Locke is actually under his command, whether he knows it or not. Locke appears immediately after, too. Really the cabin is all just guesswork and it's totally weird.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:42
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FrensaGeran posted:Really the cabin is all just guesswork and it's totally weird. Basically this is all we will ever agree upon. I actually think that was really Walt who appeared to Locke, since the real Walt wasn't dead. Walt was special. And it appears that his ability was to make poo poo happen with his mind in addition to projecting himself on the Island.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:45
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Johnny B. Goode posted:Yes but if Smokey could see into the future, then he would have known that he gets destroyed by Jack and Kate at the end of the show. I don't think he can do that. He can't see the future but he was around in the past when our time travellers were doing their thing. And he can scan brains and talk to ghosts, he's very well informed. The Smokey that impersonates Jacob that first cabin visit knows all about their time travel adventures, at least the ones that occurred in his past.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:47
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I'm interested to know how smokey appeared as Christian in a cave 150+ years prior to Christian dying.
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Jul 1, 2010 00:49
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But Walt never seemed like a guy with a plan, or any prescient knowledge about the island, even when he was on it. "You have work to do", followed by restoring the use of his legs, really goes above and beyond the Walt that left the island just a month before. And to tell Locke that the best thing to do right now is murder a young woman...I dunno man. Why can't it be Smokey using Locke? Isn't that much more consistent?
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Jul 1, 2010 00:49
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