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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:Why is the concept of different planes of existence so hard to comprehend that it has to keep being pigeonholed as purgatory ? Given the content of the series it's pretty obvious that they are talking about something more substantial than themes from old books. Well I just say purgatory for convenience, I don't believe it is literally the Christian purgatory. If it was the Christian one then Sayid would surely be headed straight to hell for being an unbeliever.
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Jul 1, 2010 17:35
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marktheando posted:Well I just say purgatory for convenience, I don't believe it is literally the Christian purgatory. If it was the Christian one then Sayid would surely be headed straight to hell for being an unbeliever. Unless it's the islamic purgatory. 
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Jul 1, 2010 17:43
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marktheando posted:And I'll say that when he appeared to Jack on the mainland that was just a hallucination, since Smokey shouldn't be able to leave the island and Jack shouldn't be able to see ghosts. That has to be it. There is just no other way to explain it within the confines of MiB's powers.
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Jul 1, 2010 17:56
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Johnny B. Goode posted:That could also be the case (I know you're being partially facetious but w/e). The donkey wheel room appearance of Christian could be explained that he appeared as a ghost or whatever to help keep things on track. After all he needed Jack to "move on." If Christian really was Christian in the Wheel Room why would he need to confirm to Locke that he would have to die? WHAT A DICK
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Jul 1, 2010 18:08
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Is there a better one-word term for the "side-verse" that I can use instead of purgatory? Not one word, but I could live with calling it "another life". 
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Jul 1, 2010 18:40
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superjew posted:Is there a better one-word term for the "side-verse" that I can use instead of purgatory? My wife calls it "the waiting place."
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Jul 1, 2010 18:55
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superjew posted:Is there a better one-word term for the "side-verse" that I can use instead of purgatory? Limbo or afterlife.
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Jul 1, 2010 19:01
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The other plane ?
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Jul 1, 2010 19:16
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The Alt
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Jul 1, 2010 20:04
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LooseChanj posted:Try this on for size: the airline lost Christian's body in the real world, same as the sideways. That's why the coffin was empty. In purgatory, they didn't lose Christian's body. It was never there. Now obviously that can't be the same for the real world. But the coffin was on the plane. So either the airline put a bodyless coffin on a plane, or the body fell out, which is very likely when a plane explodes in half in midair and tumbles through the jungle. I think the more important aspect of the coffin being empty (and Jack subsequently smashing it to bits) was the thematic element of not being able to 'just let it be over', like he said at the airport terminal. It's not over till it's over, Jack. Now, second. I honestly think I have something when it comes to MULTIPLE people at different times seeing Smokey as the same thing. I think that is a limit to his powers. He can make manifestations, sure. He can make them solid, sure. But he can't make multiple people see the same thing. For that, the body needs to be on the island.
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Jul 1, 2010 20:35
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FrensaGeran posted:In purgatory, they didn't lose Christian's body. It was never there. Now obviously that can't be the same for the real world. But the coffin was on the plane. So either the airline put a bodyless coffin on a plane, or the body fell out, which is very likely when a plane explodes in half in midair and tumbles through the jungle. Yea but what about the third time-line?
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Jul 1, 2010 20:38
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That's where the Observers come from  ...wait wrong show.
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Jul 1, 2010 20:40
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marktheando posted:Desmond wasn't in purgatory in flashes before your eyes, his life there was his real life, not his bizarro purgatory life where he didn't know Penny and Widmore was his best friend! Well that's why a said "(a) purgatory." Yeah alternate plane or spiritual plane or something would be a better word. In any case I don't think it was, after all, because it seems that when he "comes back" he accepts what he experienced as his actual past. Too bad really, it could explain so much, especially how Eloise could be at the jewelry store, and the whole red shoes thing.
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Jul 1, 2010 21:46
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Hipster_Doofus posted:In any case I don't think it was, after all, because it seems that when he "comes back" he accepts what he experienced as his actual past. How so? I remember him crying for "another chance to change it". Clearly he wasn't re-experiencing his past, because that makes no sense. If his experience was part of the normal time-line, and there's one time-line, why, if it is the real past, does he references a previous round of being IN that past? He says repeatedly in London that THIS time will be different. But how can there be a THIS time, with one timeline? Unless it's purgatory. Remember, even in the finale, Desmond doesn't understand what the purgatory is, even as he's explaining it to Jack. He doesn't know it's heaven or another timeline or whatever, it's just a different place where you can right your wrongs. Desmond tried to right his wrong in FBYE, but the Island wasn't done with him. e: Think of it like this 1995: Desmond goes to a ring shop to buy Penny's ring. A clerk who is NOT Eloise offers him the ring. He thinks about it, has second thoughts, gives the ring back, and goes to meet Penny to take the picture, and then subsequently dump her. 2004: Desmond re-experiences that same situation, except this time there is one notable difference. Eloise is the store clerk. SHE references how, in the real timeline, Desmond doesn't even buy the ring. Desmond tries to change things this time, but, seeing that the same picture was taken, along with the conversation Eloise had with him earlier, he resigns himself to the fact that he's not worthy of her love. And then a cricket bat hits him in the head and he wakes up naked in the jungle. This is different from 'The Constant', to be clear. In the Constant, he's "remembering" a past experience, one where his current consciousness went back in time. Just like when Faraday tells him to find his mother. That REALLY happened, and Desmond didn't remember it till it concurrently happened, when he wakes up on his boat. If you had asked him, pre-Constant, what do you remember about basic training? He would likely remember the bulk of his time there, and perhaps there'd be a small blank spot in his mind. That blank spot would later be filled when he crossed the Island-sphere at the wrong angle and began consciousness-jumping. e2: \/ \/ read this ^ Endless Trash fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jul 1, 2010 |
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Jul 1, 2010 21:49
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FrensaGeran posted:In purgatory, they didn't lose Christian's body. It was never there. Now obviously that can't be the same for the real world. But the coffin was on the plane. So either the airline put a bodyless coffin on a plane, or the body fell out, which is very likely when a plane explodes in half in midair and tumbles through the jungle. I always assumed Smokey took Christian's body to gently caress with Jack, make him think his Dad had actually been resurrected and was wandering around the island. FrensaGeran posted:How so? I remember him crying for "another chance to change it". Clearly he wasn't re-experiencing his past, because that makes no sense. If his experience was part of the normal time-line, and there's one time-line, why, if it is the real past, does he references a previous round of being IN that past? He says repeatedly in London that THIS time will be different. But how can there be a THIS time, with one timeline? Unless it's purgatory. I don't think his antics break the rules, he is unable to actually change anything. It's only from his point of view that things have happened twice. And the rules don't apply to Desmond anyway.
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Jul 1, 2010 21:57
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FrensaGeran posted:How so? I remember him crying for "another chance to change it". Clearly he wasn't re-experiencing his past, because that makes no sense. If his experience was part of the normal time-line, and there's one time-line, why, if it is the real past, does he references a previous round of being IN that past? He says repeatedly in London that THIS time will be different. But how can there be a THIS time, with one timeline? Unless it's purgatory. Yeah yeah good points. I should have posted last night when it was still all fresh in my mind.
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Jul 1, 2010 22:05
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FrensaGeran posted:e: Think of it like this Hmmm I'm not convinced but I can see where you are coming from.
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Jul 1, 2010 22:16
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I'm just making a not-that-rash connection between the two times we see Eloise knowing a little more than she has any right to, reasonably. In FBYE, and Happily Ever After/The End.
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Jul 1, 2010 22:23
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But in the Lamppost in season 5, Desmond lambasts Eloise for making him go to the island. Wouldn't Eloise be like "No I didn't!"
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Jul 1, 2010 22:27
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Eloise was influencing Desmond's life. Her dead-but-not-yet-dead-son's future journal made it clear that he was very important. Desmond says "you made me", referencing his misunderstanding of FBYE, but Eloise might just hear it as "you've been tampering behind the scenes", which she clearly has.
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Jul 1, 2010 22:30
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euphronius posted:Christian on the freighter is the most problematic appearance. marktheando posted:Desmond wasn't in purgatory in flashes before your eyes, his life there was his real life, not his bizarro purgatory life where he didn't know Penny and Widmore was his best friend! Edit: Wyld Cannon posted:But in the Lamppost in season 5, Desmond lambasts Eloise for making him go to the island. Wouldn't Eloise be like "No I didn't!"
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Jul 1, 2010 22:31
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No, it's fine. Real-Eloise can position Desmond exactly where she wants him to be, for whatever reasons and motives she has (something I'm perfectly willing to admit at being in the dark about), but she can't know when a red-shoed man will die, or where exactly, or what ring shop exactly Desmond went to, at what day, on what time. She can't know all that.
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Jul 1, 2010 22:36
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LividLiquid posted:His freighter appearance was preceded by whispers, too. Not smokey-noises. The Christian thing was something they really didn't seem to know where they were going with from the start. They probably just liked the actor and figured they'd think up an explanation later and honestly, who can blame them? That or they assumed he would be a ghost and later changed their minds and made him smokey. I don't know. It's something that should've been answered in the show. Or they just shouldn't have had him on the freighter at all. I do think this is probably what actually happened. I choose to believe it was Smokey though. LividLiquid posted:Why would one EM burst send him to the past and another send him to the pre-afterlife? And if he's in the past, how do you explain Eloise knowing so much about what's going on? And don't say the diary. There's no way Faraday would have written so many specifics about the dude with the shoes. Like The diary. And both EM bursts sent his consciousness time travelling, one into his past, one into his far future, when he was dead and in the pre-afterlife. But yeah I do agree that they probably hadn't really though through the nature of Christian and Eloise when they wrote those episodes. Those two characters seem to be the causes of most of Lost's unexplained weird stuff.
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Jul 1, 2010 22:38
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marktheando posted:I do think this is probably what actually happened. I choose to believe it was Smokey though. You're forgetting one more. In 'Happily Ever After', Charles Widmore shoots a giant EM burst into Desmond, which sends him to a confirmed purgatory. Ask yourself "How the gently caress does that work?" and you'll draw the same conclusion that started me on this idea. He had been to purgatory before. In the same magnetic disaster that made him the "special" man he became.
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Jul 1, 2010 22:57
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FrensaGeran posted:she can't know...what ring shop exactly Desmond went to, at what day, on what time. She can't know all that. She doesn't have to. In the case of the ring shop, she wouldn't even have to know the exact day. Hell, all she absolutely has to know is that Desmond is going to buy a ring, but doesn't. WHH takes care of all the rest.
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Jul 1, 2010 22:59
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FrensaGeran posted:You're forgetting one more. In 'Happily Ever After', Charles Widmore shoots a giant EM burst into Desmond, which sends him to a confirmed purgatory. Ask yourself "How the gently caress does that work?" and you'll draw the same conclusion that started me on this idea. He had been to purgatory before. In the same magnetic disaster that made him the "special" man he became. That's the one I meant, in 'Happily Ever After'. I don't see it as being a huge stretch to think of Desmond's mind going so far into the future that he's in the afterlife. I don't see why there would be two purgatory's though, with one being the same as Desmond's real life. Surely it is simpler for Desmond in 'Flashes Before Your Eyes' to be time travelling back into his past, and for 'Happily Ever After' to be a trip to the afterlife.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:06
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LooseChanj posted:She doesn't have to. In the case of the ring shop, she wouldn't even have to know the exact day. Hell, all she absolutely has to know is that Desmond is going to buy a ring, but doesn't. WHH takes care of all the rest. But explain to me how he doesn't take the ring, and then TAKES the ring? That's two distinct playing out of events. WHH completely contradicts this. You can't remember a completely different occurrence if that occurrence happened to the you that is experiencing the new occurrence. e: marktheando posted:That's the one I meant, in 'Happily Ever After'. I don't see it as being a huge stretch to think of Desmond's mind going so far into the future that he's in the afterlife. I don't see why there would be two purgatory's though, with one being the same as Desmond's real life. Surely it is simpler for Desmond in 'Flashes Before Your Eyes' to be time travelling back into his past, and for 'Happily Ever After' to be a trip to the afterlife. There is no "now", here. Also, Desmond, after the key turning, gets an innate sense of impending death. Him going to the death waiting lobby nicely explains this. Endless Trash fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jul 1, 2010 |
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Jul 1, 2010 23:12
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FrensaGeran posted:But explain to me how he doesn't take the ring, and then TAKES the ring? That's two distinct playing out of events. WHH completely contradicts this. Desmond is special. Besides, how do we know that's not exactly what happened the first time? He buys the ring anyhow, but ends up throwing it into a river when he's had time to think about Eloise and her seeming omniscience? The only difference between the first and time and time he travels back is...his own subjective experience.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:19
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FrensaGeran posted:But explain to me how he doesn't take the ring, and then TAKES the ring? That's two distinct playing out of events. WHH completely contradicts this. WHH doesn't apply to Desmond. If it did, Faraday wouldn't be able to give him that message. If Desmond was like everyone else and unable to change things, there would be no need for Eloise to interfere at all. FrensaGeran posted:There is no "now", here. Not once they get to the afterlife, no, there is no now. So it occurs at the same time for Jack who dies on the island and for Desmond who dies in his bed aged 101 (hopefully). But for his mind to get there it would have to travel into the future to after his death.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:21
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LooseChanj posted:Desmond is special. Besides, how do we know that's not exactly what happened the first time? He buys the ring anyhow, but ends up throwing it into a river when he's had time to think about Eloise and her seeming omniscience? The only difference between the first and time and time he travels back is...his own subjective experience. Eloise is genuinely surprised that he takes the ring, meaning at a different time, he didn't. Desmond cannot change the past. He never did. He was special because he could stand the electromagnetism that caused things like consciousness jumps. He wasn't special for changing the future. An image of Charlie dying through an arrow in the neck isn't changing the future. The vision always happened, and his eventual decision to save Charlie always happened. Only by Charlie turning off the Looking Glass could the rest of the show play out.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:23
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LooseChanj posted:Desmond is special. Besides, how do we know that's not exactly what happened the first time? He buys the ring anyhow, but ends up throwing it into a river when he's had time to think about Eloise and her seeming omniscience? The only difference between the first and time and time he travels back is...his own subjective experience. Christ Desmond I know throwing it into the water makes a nice visual but I'm sure Eloise would have been happy to give you a refund.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:23
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FrensaGeran posted:Eloise is genuinely surprised that he takes the ring, meaning at a different time, he didn't. No, she's surprised because Faraday's journal says he doesn't. Even if he didn't buy the ring then and there, how would Eloise know that? My point is the experience doesn't happen to her twice, like it does to Desmond. There is no "different time" for her.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:28
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LooseChanj posted:She doesn't have to. In the case of the ring shop, she wouldn't even have to know the exact day. Hell, all she absolutely has to know is that Desmond is going to buy a ring, but doesn't. WHH takes care of all the rest. Okay, it might, but I've always viewed WHH as a "you can't kill Hitler" thing. Anything you've done in the world's past always happened. What it doesn't do, however, is give you knowledge. Eloise would still need to know the future for that moment to have occurred. She wasn't the one time-traveling, either. I guess I see what you're saying. It always happened that way, so she wouldn't need to know which day he'd go in for it to happen, I'm just saying that I still think she would. Just that it was inevitable that she would succeed eventually given the fact that she already had. Except Desmond is special and the rules don't apply to him so in this one instance the past changed and I thought that made sense because it was purgatory but then in real life Desmond was mad at Eloise for sending him to the island and oh bugger, I've gone cross-eyed.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:30
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LooseChanj posted:No, she's surprised because Faraday's journal says he doesn't. Even if he didn't buy the ring then and there, how would Eloise know that? My point is the experience doesn't happen to her twice, like it does to Desmond. There is no "different time" for her. Okay, tell me if this is your timeline. 1977: Eloise gets her future son's journal, and for god knows what reason, he describes the place, location and time of a man dying horribly near the very ring shop where minutes before, Desmond Hume will decide NOT to buy a ring. 1995: For some reason, Eloise is fully conscious and rather pretentious about the knowledge that Desmond is currently undergoing "consciousness time travel" and uses the man in red shoes as very convenient example of the new power he has just gotten in 2004, something ALSO that Desmond never described to Faraday. She is then completely taken aback by the concept that Desmond takes the ring, which, if Faraday is so fastidious about the concrete details, then WHY does he say that he doesn't? Course correcting is just what people who consciousness/physically time travel call the realization that their actions are the exact, true causes of the future. There is no deviation.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:42
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FrensaGeran posted:Going into this, remember, Desmond never describes to Faraday about his post-key turning adventure. Do we know that for a fact? I don't think we do.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:49
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LooseChanj posted:Do we know that for a fact? I don't think we do. Desmond's first contact with Faraday was in season 4 with the satellite phone during the Constant. And THAT was definitely consciousness time travel, and I'm right there with you, but you need to understand he NEVER changes the past. That was just fulfillment of prophecy. That's why Daniel knew the exact figures to give him. It's a loop of consistent information. Desmond NEVER leaves the boat, and Faraday stops only to unload passengers at the end. They never speak. They never see each other or speak to each other again until the Hatch door. The only thing in Daniel's journal was that Desmond Hume would be his Constant, because he was the only human he knew for SURE he'd meet later in life, and could be used as an anchor. That's why Widmore and Eloise machinate his life behind the scenes. They wanna make sure he's close. Endless Trash fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jul 1, 2010 |
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Jul 1, 2010 23:51
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FrensaGeran posted:Desmond's first contact with Faraday was in season 4 with the satellite phone during the Constant. And THAT was definitely consciousness time travel, and I'm right there with you, but you need to understand he NEVER changes the past. That was just fulfillment of prophecy. That's why Daniel knew the exact figures to give him. It's a loop of consistent information. No they met at the beach camp before Desmond went out on the chopper, I'm pretty sure Faraday mentions this during the phone call, but Desmond can't remember because he's 1996 Desmond.
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Jul 1, 2010 23:59
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marktheando posted:No they met at the beach camp before Desmond went out on the chopper, I'm pretty sure Faraday mentions this during the phone call, but Desmond can't remember because he's 1996 Desmond. No they met briefly at the chopper landing site. There was no scene of Daniel asking Desmond detailed loving questions about men in red shoes. Daniel probably didn't even recognize him with the beard. Remember, Daniel is still slowly healing his memory. He struggles with his name, 3 upside down cards, let alone the where-with-all to do a long interview.
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Jul 2, 2010 00:02
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FrensaGeran posted:There was no scene of Daniel asking Desmond detailed loving questions about men in red shoes. There doesn't need to be. We've got a proven possible way for that information to make it into Faraday's journal.
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Jul 2, 2010 00:06
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Dude they took off immediately once Sayid arrived. This is bunk. e: ok once Sayid arrived but still. hosed-up-mentally-still Daniel is not making detailed notes about Desmond's life, and if he were, there'd be a scene about it. Endless Trash fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 2, 2010 |
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Jul 2, 2010 00:08
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