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New topic! Is Sun just a bitch, or is this a plothole? Season 3 episode, D.O.C., in a flashback we learn that Jin's mother is still alive, was a lady of ill repute, and is blackmailing Sun for 100K in order to keep her silence on this subject. Sun gets the 100K from Daddy, who says this debt is on Jin, and he will no longer be working as a floor manager, but will be working directly for him. Jin finds this money, and asks that Sun return it to her father, since he doesn't want to be in his debt anymore than he already is. Sun agrees, but of course, does not do this, instead paying off Whoremomma. In season 1 or 2 (I forget) we learn what this job consisted of (Thuggery), and how upset Sun got about it. We saw several - many - instance of the marital difficulties between Jun and Sun being caused by Jin's work. This work - thuggery - also changes Jin into a hard man, which also upsets Sun. So, bitch or plothole? Sun set it all up, and knew the price her father would demand (she even alludes to this in D.O.C. - she says she pretends she does not know what her father does), and then when Jin has to pay that price, she's all in Jin's grill about everything, and then cheats on him. Seems awfully bitchy to me, but then I think alot of what Sun does is pretty bitchy - she slaps a lot of people, for example. Shouldn't Sun have been a bit more understanding of what Jin was going through, since she set it up and knew exactly what it would mean for Jin? All Jin did was accede to her Father's wishes, on behalf of Sun, of course.
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Jul 10, 2010 13:39
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redshirt posted:New topic! Is Sun just a bitch, or is this a plothole? If I remember right, Sun paid the blackmail money for Jin's sake, because she knew how much the truth would hurt him. So it was a trade-off in her eyes - Jin is "in debt" to her father, but at least he doesn't have to know that his mother was a hooker. Arguably, if he was less proud and obsessed with status, she wouldn't have needed to make that trade-off in the first place. Plus, I think Sun's reaction is more to how the job changes Jin. She probably doesn't like to think directly about what he's doing, but she still has to deal with how angry and remote he becomes. For the slapping, I think she does that to people who piss her off. It's hardly worse than the amount of punches thrown by Jack or Sawyer whenever they don't like something.
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Jul 10, 2010 16:07
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Goons hate female characters across the board, unless they have big tits. It's a terrible trait. Just venture over to the Breaking Bad thread.
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Jul 10, 2010 16:40
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Nah they don't.
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Jul 10, 2010 16:43
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I don't like Sun because she's boring. I can't remember anything she did apart from plant a garden, point a gun at Ben, then run into a tree and die. Requesting the gif of her running into the tree though, that was in my top 5 Lost moments.
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Jul 10, 2010 16:45
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Johnny B. Goode posted:Goons hate female characters across the board, unless they have big tits. I know that's the myth! And I sure might sound like it with the "bitch" comment, but! Objectively, I think, Lost didn't have too many inspiring female characters, certainly nowhere near the par of the male characters. And I love good female characters - Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the best, for example, and it's filled with girls! So, I disagree on the automatic misogyny, however, Lost almost sets up its lady characters to be labelled "bitches". Kate Hate's a fact, for example, not an opinion. Of all the women characters on the show, Juliette comes out the best by far, and she was far from perfect, of course. But who was, on Lost?
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Jul 10, 2010 16:48
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FrensaGeran posted:In the Constant, he does not at all remember what he did during that time period. In FBYE, he remembers what he did, like a memory, and tried to alter it. Where have we seen that before? Purgatory. It was his 1996 conscious jumping to 2004 - that's why he couldn't remember - he hadn't done anything yet.
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Jul 10, 2010 16:52
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redshirt posted:Of all the women characters on the show, Juliette comes out the best by far, and she was far from perfect, of course. But who was, on Lost? Vincent.
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Jul 10, 2010 16:55
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qa6 posted:Vincent. Vincent is a boy not a bitch. I liked Sun throughout the whole show. Every character can't be relevant at all times. She was just a character to keep all of the others grounded. It was only when they tried to make her central to the plot, with the conception stuff, that I got annoyed with her treatment.
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Jul 10, 2010 17:04
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redshirt posted:Of all the women characters on the show, Juliette comes out the best by far, and she was far from perfect, of course. But who was, on Lost? I hope she wins the Emmy.
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Jul 10, 2010 17:28
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Johnny B. Goode posted:Vincent is a boy not a bitch. Actually one of the two dogs that played Vincent was female. So there ya go.
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Jul 10, 2010 17:29
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Johnny B. Goode posted:Goons hate female characters across the board, unless they have big tits. This isn't goon hatred. It's Hollywood writers writing horrible women.
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Jul 10, 2010 19:50
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I actually love Kate, I just hate Kate episodes. I'm fine with her character, but her centric episodes are just boring as gently caress. I love Juliette too though because of her capital knockers.
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Jul 10, 2010 20:48
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Kate was a pretty rubbish boring character who constantly made stupid decisions, but Jack was much worse for all those things. Yet somehow Kate seems to get 90% of the hate. Definite double standard. Both characters got a lot less annoying in the last couple of seasons though.
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Jul 10, 2010 20:53
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FrensaGeran posted:You're handwaving Eloise knowing when and where and how a man in red shoes died on a specific day. We've been over how there's no way any of that information could ever appear in his journal. No possible way. Remember? You decided Daniel had an astonishingly in depth 6 hour interview when Desmond was getting ready to get on the chopper? It is a very important moment, both in the life of Desmond, and in the life of Eloise. If it's so hard to believe that Desmond told Faraday about that weird time travel moment at some point, then how about Eloise putting that info in Faraday's journal before giving it to him, or even at some point later. Hell, she could have been the one who told Faraday about it. qa6 posted:If I remember right, Sun paid the blackmail money for Jin's sake, because she knew how much the truth would hurt him. So it was a trade-off in her eyes - Jin is "in debt" to her father, but at least he doesn't have to know that his mother was a hooker. Arguably, if he was less proud and obsessed with status, she wouldn't have needed to make that trade-off in the first place. Yeah, she had good intentions in mind when she paid them off. And her intentions were good when she decided to leave him because she hoped that then he would no longer have to work for her father. But she's not perfect by any means. She's flawed just like everyone else. VVV She could have also hidden it in the journal somewhere. VVV Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jul 15, 2010 |
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Jul 10, 2010 21:05
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Nah, he didn't know that his mother was involved in any weirdness (we know this because it would be a pretty big deal and we never saw any hint of it.) He was very surprised to see she was an Other.
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Jul 10, 2010 21:12
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Gianthogweed posted:If you track Daniel and Desmond's journey in season 4 and beyond, you'll find that the ONE moment (besides the Hatch door) that they are in contact is the brief time where Desmond is waiting to get on the chopper to go to the freighter, while Daniel is loving with his payload experiments. They never speak, and Daniel likely does not remember Desmond's face from 9 years ago. After that, Desmond goes to the chopper, and never leaves the freighter. Daniel never leaves the island except to momentarily drop red shirts off at the freighter. He's then stuck on the island in 1974, lives in Ann Arbor till 77, and dies on the island. That 100% completely for all intents and purposes ASSURES us that the one and only thing about Desmond Hume in his journal is that he is Daniel's constant. Desmond never ever ever told anyone about his experience in purgatory. So now the only avenue you have left is to tell me Eloise knew all those things because Eloise wrote them in Daniel's journal super secretly, and then gave it to Daniel, so Daniel could give it to her in 1977. The only problem with this is that is, and I can't believe I have to rehash this over and over, Eloise is genuinely and completely surprised that Desmond takes the ring. If there's this supernaturally correct information in Daniel's journal, why is it wrong on that count? Why didn't Eloise write "and he takes the ring"? If this is some 'Eloise writes a message to past-Eloise because when she was past-Eloise, she got the message, so she needs to keep everything in line', why is it off? I mean honestly, people writing messages to their past selves in journals, and we see none of this and it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, why can't purgatory be an easier solution? Endless Trash fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jul 10, 2010 |
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Jul 10, 2010 21:46
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FrensaGeran posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_license That's how. Lost wasn't a documentary. It's not an unassailable monolith of airtight logic and continuity. Some things just aren't going to add up, sorry. I've said I liked the purgatory theory before, but I just don't see that it's what they were trying to convey.
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Jul 10, 2010 21:58
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If that's all you have left I'll consider this topic closed. I personally feel they had purgatory in mind from season 1, and Desmond was very much planned out. I think him saying, in season 2 "I'll see you in another life" was more than just a neat little phrase, but evidence that his path had been written out in much detail.
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Jul 10, 2010 22:01
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FrensaGeran posted:I personally feel they had purgatory in mind from season 1 I won't argue with you there, supposedly that scene with Jack and his dad in the funeral home was written alongside the pilot. But advocating FBYE as Desmond going to purgatory is just stretching things really loving thin.
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Jul 10, 2010 22:04
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LooseChanj posted:I won't argue with you there, supposedly that scene with Jack and his dad in the funeral home was written alongside the pilot. But advocating FBYE as Desmond going to purgatory is just stretching things really loving thin. But it explains so much. Why, in your mind, does the SECOND time Desmond is exposed with a huge burst of EM energy send him to purgatory, but not the first?
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Jul 10, 2010 22:07
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The show had elements of Magical Realism and not everything has to make right angle sense. That is how I answer it. For example: Michael seeing Christian on the Freighter. Whatever, it works and is meaningful while at the same time making little "sense". (Though I enjoy reading everyone's interpretations!)
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Jul 10, 2010 22:11
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Am I crazy for thinking that the Man in Black went to hell when he died, or at the very least will never have the opportunity of "moving on"? 1) He's the only character we see die while the light is put out. If we go with the idea that the light is the source of the "purgatory", which I find satisfying because it gives meaning to all the sacrifices the survivors made, it's not a huge leap to make. 2) He dies by falling down Jacob's ladder. Heavy symbolism right there. 3) Richard's wife said that if the MiB got his way, "we'd all go to hell." It was also mentioned several times throughout the season that everyone would die if he was able to leave. Maybe that didn't mean they'd die instantly, but just that they wouldn't have eternal life? Feel free to make fun of me if this sounds stupid. 
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Jul 10, 2010 22:32
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FrensaGeran posted:Desmond never ever ever told anyone about his experience in purgatory. FrensaGeran posted:But it explains so much. Why, in your mind, does the SECOND time Desmond is exposed with a huge burst of EM energy send him to purgatory, but not the first?
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Jul 10, 2010 22:44
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LividLiquid posted:The entire episode we're talking about was Desmond narrating his experience to Charlie and Hurley. He doesn't tell them anything, other than telling Charlie he saw his life flash before his eyes. They ask him what happened, he gets angry when called a coward, says "You don't wanna know what happened!!!!!" and then it cuts to the episode. Then he tells Charlie about all the times he envisioned him dying. (Which is a very peculiar power to have if you just plain old time traveled. Now, if you went to death's doorstep, that'd make more sense)
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Jul 10, 2010 22:47
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FrensaGeran posted:If you track Daniel and Desmond's journey in season 4 and beyond, you'll find that the ONE moment (besides the Hatch door) that they are in contact is the brief time where Desmond is waiting to get on the chopper to go to the freighter, while Daniel is loving with his payload experiments. They never speak, and Daniel likely does not remember Desmond's face from 9 years ago. They also spent some time together when Faraday was in college, talking about time travel and all sorts of things. Is it too much of a stretch that this experience would come up then? quote:So now the only avenue you have left is to tell me Eloise knew all those things because Eloise wrote them in Daniel's journal super secretly, and then gave it to Daniel, so Daniel could give it to her in 1977. That isn't the only avenue, we already discussed several different possibilities. quote:The only problem with this is that is, and I can't believe I have to rehash this over and over, Eloise is genuinely and completely surprised that Desmond takes the ring. If there's this supernaturally correct information in Daniel's journal, why is it wrong on that count? Why didn't Eloise write "and he takes the ring"? If this is some 'Eloise writes a message to past-Eloise because when she was past-Eloise, she got the message, so she needs to keep everything in line', why is it off? Because on the previous iteration he didn't take the ring. So that's what was written. We don't know the details of exactly what happened in the previous iteration beyond that, but there are all sorts of possible reasons why Eloise or Faraday might have thought it important to note in the journal. quote:I mean honestly, people writing messages to their past selves in journals, and we see none of this and it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, why can't purgatory be an easier solution? But it isn't an easier solution. You're adding a whole 'nother purgatory. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice theorey, but I just think it's too much of a stretch. You might think it to be too much of a stretch that there's another, almost identical timeline. But I don't. I think there's more evidence to support that idea than yours. To each their own. FrensaGeran posted:But it explains so much. Why, in your mind, does the SECOND time Desmond is exposed with a huge burst of EM energy send him to purgatory, but not the first? My theory explains a lot too. It explains why Desmond saw the flashes of Charlie dying. It explains why Charlie lived longer than he was supposed to. It explains why the O6 were never supposed to leave. It explains why they became unstuck in time. It explains why Locke had to turn the wheel to stop the time skipping. It explains how the compass could exist in a seemingly endless time loop. It explains why the O6 had to go back. It explains why they had to recreate the conditions on the Ajira flight. It explains why some people time travelled and others didn't. It explains why Ben didn't recognize Sayid. It explains how Eloise knew so much about the future. It explains why she encouraged Faraday to become an expert physicist. It explains why Faraday changed his mind about Whatever Happened Happened when he saw the Dharma photo. It explains why the time travellers flashed to the present the instant before the bomb went off. It explains Desmond's time fuckery. And it explains how course correction fits into the idea of Whatever Happened and the major themes of the show. I could probably think of more things that it explains, but I think you get the point. But to address your last point, the only thing it doesn't explain is the existence and mechanics of the afterlife, but I don't expect any of our theories to explain that. Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jul 15, 2010 |
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Jul 10, 2010 22:58
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Gianthogweed posted:They also spent some time together when Faraday was in college, talking about time travel and all sorts of things. Is it too much of a stretch that this experience would come up then? #1. We saw his entire experience with Daniel Faraday. #2. Haha but if he doesn't take the ring on some "previous iteration" then where is the impetus to write anything in the journal at all? If in a previous iteration he doesn't need a talking to, why did Eloise write "He'll need a talking to cause he's going to take the ring even if he didn't take the ring, but act surprised when he does take the ring oh my head hurts". #3. There's only one purgatory. It just looks different if you're not ready to die. Endless Trash fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jul 10, 2010 |
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Jul 10, 2010 23:00
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FrensaGeran posted:#3. There's only one purgatory. It just looks different if you're not ready to die. This doesn't mean anything and is just as much speculation as anything else. We saw people in the purgatory who weren't ready to die (Ana Lucia, Ben, Hawking herself) and they were all part of the same world which Christian outlined the creation and purpose of specifically. I can agree that there is no way all of that stuff is in the journal and I honestly don't have a problem with FBYE being separate from reality in general, but the only relation to the sideways is the catalyst for entering it and whatever force is zapping Desmond whenever seems to have an agenda of it's own that is manifested in Eloise at that moment. Robotnik DDS fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jul 10, 2010 |
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Jul 10, 2010 23:12
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FrensaGeran posted:#1. We saw his entire experience with Daniel Faraday. That's debatable. quote:#2. Haha but if he doesn't take the ring on some "previous iteration" then where is the impetus to write anything in the journal at all? If in a previous iteration he doesn't need a talking to, why did Eloise write "He'll need a talking to cause he's going to take the ring even if he didn't take the ring, but act surprised when he does take the ring oh my head hurts". Like I said, we don't know what happened on the previous iteration. There could have been a number of reasons why she felt the need to note it. quote:#3. There's only one purgatory. It just looks different if you're not ready to die. That's like saying there's only one timeline, but it could vary slightly due to the choices characters make having had knowledge of the future. It's a contradiction.
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Jul 10, 2010 23:14
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Gianthogweed posted:That's debatable. #1. No it's not. Watch the episode. #2. I just... #3. It's almost like Desmond is special or something.
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Jul 10, 2010 23:16
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FrensaGeran posted:#1. No it's not. Watch the episode. I will watch it again to make sure there are no cuts, or edits where they could have talked. But that episode wasn't the only time info could have been exchanged. There was the flashback in the constant, the time they spent on the island together in season 4, the time Faraday went back in time and visited him at the hatch. Plus Desmond could have related this time any time during season 3 to any of the other characters who could have passed on the info to Faraday. Or it could have been Eloise that put the info in the journal, or told Faraday, or any explanation you can think of. There are so many possibilities. quote:#3. It's almost like Desmond is special or something. But even if he's the only one able to create a new timeline by making different choices, that still means there's more than one timeline.
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Jul 10, 2010 23:38
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Oddball comment, but it's interesting how many more people were much more agreeable to accept the last scene of Titanic. 
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Jul 10, 2010 23:40
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I like your theories alot FrensaGeran. I think it's clear there are different phenomena at work in Desmond's various time travels/purgatory visits, whatever you want to call them. Consider an episode a few before FBYE: "The Cost of Living" features Eko getting killed by the Smoke Monster, and one of the last shots (the last shot?) of the episode is a young Yemi and Eko walking off into a very orange sun. Is this a flashback? Storytelling device? Or Eko's purgatory, the place he goes to once he finally lets go of his life? I just watched "The Brig". Man, that's a great episode. The payoff of Sawyer killing evil Sawyer Jabba style is just remarkably awesome. Great acting, on island flashbacks, Locke joining the Others, Richard making his move against Ben, etc. It's just fantastic. It's also incredible they pull off the "They're all dead and in Hell" trick so well. First, in the previous episode, Naomi tells them they found the plane, under the sea, with all the bodies. LOST. Then, in "The Brig", Evil Sawyer is just working that angle - they're all in Hell - and seems to believe it, as he doesn't appear to give a drat what he says at any time. Good Sawyer is taken aback when Evil Sawyer tells him they found the plane as well - "little hot for Heaven, ain't it?". It's a nice diversion/discussion builder, since it does plausibly present evidence towards that theory, at that point (we don't know about the Widmore fake yet), but we now know it to be false. Or was it..... Richard seemed pretty convinced even 150 years later that they were all dead.
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Jul 11, 2010 00:21
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Gianthogweed posted:But even if he's the only one able to create a new timeline by making different choices, that still means there's more than one timeline. I meant that his specialness is his communion with purgatory. He can go there and come back. He can change it. Like in Happily Ever After, where, if I recall, he was hit with EM radiation. Now when has that happened before........
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Jul 11, 2010 00:49
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LaptopGun posted:Oddball comment, but it's interesting how many more people were much more agreeable to accept the last scene of Titanic. What was the last scene. I don't even remember it being controversial.
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Jul 11, 2010 00:52
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FrensaGeran posted:He doesn't tell them anything, other than telling Charlie he saw his life flash before his eyes.
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Jul 11, 2010 01:17
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Frensa don't you understand? We're just all here to let go and to move on 
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Jul 11, 2010 01:20
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FrensaGeran posted:I meant that his specialness is his communion with purgatory. He can go there and come back. He can change it. Like in Happily Ever After, where, if I recall, he was hit with EM radiation. Now when has that happened before........ I will give you that. And it is definitely the strongest aspect of your theory. But it still introduces so many more problems and inconsistencies that it I don't think it holds up. I prefer my theory, that interprets course correction to mean exactly what it was said to mean, and explains far more mysteries.
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Jul 11, 2010 01:20
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If anything Frensa, the fact that you're in opposition to Gianthogweed means that you're probably right.
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Jul 11, 2010 01:24
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Johnny B. Goode posted:If anything Frensa, the fact that you're in opposition to Gianthogweed means that you're probably right. And the fact that you're still an rear end in a top hat hasn't changed. It's good to see consistency in these threads at least.
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Jul 11, 2010 01:44
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