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I agree, we should be fair and also blame those people for being in their city and looking at the big crash. Clearly it's all very murky, safest bet is to bomb first and sort out 'basic human morals' later.
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Mar 22, 2011 22:40
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I would hope the US military is in the habit of identifying targets before trying to kill them. I guess from what you are telling me that is not the case. My questions was whether they were going to get in trouble anyway: I suppose the answer is No?
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Mar 22, 2011 22:41
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IRQ posted:So... he should have just hoped they weren't going to kill him? That doesn't seem like a very good idea. I think dropping some bombs between him and the group to let them know to stop coming at him is the better idea. Using *bombs* in that situation is in general ill-advised. With strafing overhead you run a far smaller risk of hurting anyone unintendedly (well, supposing that it's a desert) while still sending a clear message. Although you might hurt them with the falling shell cases...  Fighters could drop some flares just to spook them off, too. Hell, even a low overpass will send folks running for safety, although that has its own risks. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 22:43
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Before you go on placing blame, it should be pointed out that we still haven't got a clear picture of what exactly happened. There is no confirmation said bombs actually harmed anyone.
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Mar 22, 2011 22:43
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euphronius posted:I would hope the US military is in the habit of identifying targets before trying to kill them. I guess from what you are telling me that is not the case. No see, it's safe, we just WANTED set off high explosives between a wrecked plane, a (wounded?) pilot, and a group of civilians! I don't see anything wrong with that, we're not monsters here man. Stroh M.D. posted:Before you go on placing blame, it should be pointed out that we still haven't got a clear picture of what exactly happened. There is no confirmation said bombs actually harmed anyone. Yea, we could have just scared civilians into obedience with a display of high military force. Anyway here's why we have to kill terrorists...
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Mar 22, 2011 22:44
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Nenonen posted:Using *bombs* in that situation is in general ill-advised. With strafing overhead you run a far smaller risk of hurting anyone unintendedly (well, supposing that it's a desert) while still sending a clear message. Although you might hurt them with the falling shell cases... Well, that's another thing were WW2 fighters have an advantage. Modern fighters can't exactly hug the ground safely, if they did any of these things it would have to be done from such an altitude that it probably would have gone unnoticed by the people below.
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Mar 22, 2011 22:46
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Stroh M.D. posted:Well, that's another thing were WW2 fighters have an advantage. Modern fighters can't exactly hug the ground safely, if they did any of these things it would have to be done from such an altitude that it probably would have gone unnoticed by the people below. That's one of the benefits of Harrier (supposing they really were present), they can do slow passes thanks to the VTOL technology  It might not be deemed safe in a war zone right after a jet fighter has crashed, mind you.
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Mar 22, 2011 22:49
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shotgunbadger posted:No see, it's safe, we just WANTED set off high explosives between a wrecked plane, a (wounded?) pilot, and a group of civilians! I don't see anything wrong with that, we're not monsters here man. The point is that we really haven't got a clear picture of anything at this point. The different reports are almost mutually exclusive: Hilsum says the Osprey did it, Ulsh from the Marines says no-one did it, the unnamed Marine officer says the Harriers may have done it. At this point it's completely impossible to say whether the pilot directed the bombs a mile, a few hundred feet or almost on top of the crowd. There's a ton of difference.
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Mar 22, 2011 22:51
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Killing someone out of assumed self defence with no proof of impending assault and then blaming the victim is not an acceptable defence. The fog of war is not carte blanche to light up every fucker you see.
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Mar 22, 2011 22:51
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Nenonen posted:That's one of the benefits of Harrier (supposing they really were present), they can do slow passes thanks to the VTOL technology It definitely wouldn't be safe, it would be like asking for an RPG or small arms fire up your rear end. Hell, you would be put at risk of crashing by someone tossing a rock into your air intake. It may have been a smart move in this case. But doctrine completely forbids it.
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Mar 22, 2011 22:53
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:
And all the other militaries in the world do it more professionally? Also, no one died in this incident.
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Mar 22, 2011 22:58
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This was just posted on LibyaFeb17.com:quote:Al Jazeera Arabic
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Mar 22, 2011 22:59
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Xandu posted:And all the other militaries in the world do it more professionally? A bar set surprisingly low by our past endeavors. In other news, long time fans of public dissent Saudi Arabia come out in support. BBC: quote:2047: Saudi Arabia has expressed its support for the military operation in Libya. The Saudis have moved to clamp down on protests in their own country, but they have been on bad terms with Col Gaddafi for years. UK Prime Minister David Cameron met Saudi Foreign Minister in London for talks on Tuesday. "Prince Saud expressed strong support for the aims of UNSCR 1973 [authorising the no-fly zone] and the steps being taken by the international community to enforce it," Downing St said in a statement after the meeting. When asked to clarify this compared to their position on Bahrain and Yemen, Prince Saud explained "gently caress You.".
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Mar 22, 2011 23:02
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Apparently this is a Khamis brigade training video, with recruits eating dog flesh, and kissing the head of the dead dog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwAwNnq1I8M&feature=player_embedded I also noticed this: quote:AJA reporting that Hussain Warfally, an important Gaddafi general, killed in western Tripoli clashes.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:03
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Brown Moses posted:Apparently this is a Khamis brigade training video, with recruits eating dog flesh, and kissing the head of the dead dog: For those that don't know, dogs are incredibly popular in the Arab world and this will upset pet lovers throughout the region. Also, there's a slight religious thing.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:04
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Xandu posted:And all the other militaries in the world do it more professionally? quote:Also, no one died in this incident.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:05
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Competition posted:Lovely deflection, the concept of a professional armed forces goes beyond not building it out of conscripts and is one of high standards, no military is perfect but when incidents do occur actively investigating and bringing perpetrators to justice is essential and not institutionally covering up and pretending they don't happen is key (as wikileaks has displayed the US military loving loves to do). No my point is military action is loving awful and people shouldn't be clamoring for it when events like this are inevitable (edit: a quick look at your post history indicates you supported this, though I could be wrong). quote:
Sorry for wanting accuracy.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:07
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More on the rescue:quote:Tom Kington, who is on board the USS Kearsarge in the Mediterranean, has filed an update for the Guardian which clarifies the circumstances in which a number of villagers were injured during the extraction of a downed US air crew on Monday night:
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Mar 22, 2011 23:08
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Brown Moses posted:More on the rescue: That still makes no drat sense. If they actually attacked armoured vehicles, those would have belonged to the rebels. And if they hit them, casualties wouldn't had stayed at wounded - providing that's true. Stroh M.D. fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 23:12
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I think many people continue to assume that a "no fly zone" is enforced by burying the enemy in extremely soft pillows, and the people manning the pillow guns are extremely calm and intelligent old men with very slow reaction times and a lot of impulse control who have never seen movies such as "BlackHawk Down". Also a prevalent assumption that most European governments cannot see past a month or so down the road and will not be expecting very favorable concessions from people they just leaned on the US to directly save. Much more favorable concessions than crazy-ol' Muammar "Occasionally I like to engage in a little terrorism in your countries to keep you on your toes" Gaddafi. If France is participating in an African conflict out of the goodness of its governments heart, this is for sure the first time it has done so, and is most likely some sort of sign of the end times.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:14
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Brown Moses posted:Apparently this is a Khamis brigade training video, with recruits eating dog flesh, and kissing the head of the dead dog: Seems pretty standard stuff for initiating recruits in any European army... some 50-100 years ago, probably still in Russia. Bullying the recruits tends to be a lot worse most of the time where it's allowed, I would bet that that was an unusually pleasant day for them compared to usual.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:16
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Baddog posted:I think many people continue to assume that a "no fly zone" is enforced by burying the enemy in extremely soft pillows, and the people manning the pillow guns are extremely calm and intelligent old men with very slow reaction times and a lot of impulse control who have never seen movies such as "BlackHawk Down". How silly of people expecting standards from a professional western military.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:22
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Chronojam posted:I'm not sure how reporters or witnesses would confuse that with a pow-pow from guns, or miss the explosions Welcome to war reporting in the Greater Middle East.  I pretty much expect to see non-tanks be called tanks, and planes dropping defensive flares to be "bombing", and get pleasantly surprised when they do it right. Likewise people having trigger discipline and aiming their guns. LO Technology posted:As Mr. Gadaffi has wisely informed the world, this is now about drawings of a prophet. http://www.cphpost.dk/classifieds/services/51251.html?task=view  Would be funny if Denmark takes the lead though. Even better if Qatar does it, being the owner of Al Jazeera and all, but I don't think either has capacity to do that alone. Anyway, with AC-130U Spookys arriving at nearby bases, close air support of rebels, and special forces on the ground is a definite possibility. They could just be keeping them in reserve in case of pilot extractions though.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:23
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Nenonen posted:Seems pretty standard stuff for initiating recruits in any European army... some 50-100 years ago, probably still in Russia. Bullying the recruits tends to be a lot worse most of the time where it's allowed, I would bet that that was an unusually pleasant day for them compared to usual. I'd like to think European nations are participating in this because their public demands it, translating to much needed popularity boosts for struggling governments: good enough reason for me, at least better than more cynical economic or security explanations. With the recent Lockerbie coverage I'm kinda surprised the American public don't feel the same way considering how much they like killing their own murderers. Vir posted:I pretty much expect to see non-tanks be called tanks, and planes dropping defensive flares to be "bombing", and get pleasantly surprised when they do it right. Likewise people having trigger discipline and aiming their guns.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:25
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Brown Moses posted:Apparently this is a Khamis brigade training video, with recruits eating dog flesh, and kissing the head of the dead dog: "You know...don't you think it's odd that part our introduction here is that we abuse defenseless animals? Dogs even? Man's best friend! Why are we abusing man's best friend in ritual?" "Uh...I guess so. What's your point?" "Are we the baddies?"
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Mar 22, 2011 23:25
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Vir posted:Welcome to war reporting in the Greater Middle East. I also throw unfired bullets at people to intimidate them.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:26
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Breaking news on the subject of Khamis Khaddafi's possible death Secretary Clinton confirms... quote:# ...that we still don't know if he's dead, but it wasn't us if he is. Also, my joke may have been too subtle, but in case you guys talking about the dog thing aren't aware, that dogs are considered unclean by most(I believe) branches of Islam. To put it in similar perspective it would be like Jewish units forcing you to eat raw pig as an initiation ritual. Of course no idea how observant every single person in the brigade is, but hopefully that sort of footage undercuts any feeling of religious based solidarity with Khaddafi. farraday fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 23:26
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Wasn't the claim of Khamis' death related to the claim of a suicide airplane attack on the Gaddafi complex in Tripoli, which was disproven? Or have there been other claims of his death since?
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Mar 22, 2011 23:31
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farraday posted:Also, my joke may have been too subtle, but in case you guys talking about the dog thing aren't aware, that dogs are considered unclean by most(I believe) branches of Islam. To put it in similar perspective it would be like Jewish units forcing you to eat raw pig as an initiation ritual. It's fitting though - to psychologically prime your fighting force into a gaggle of willing crooked murdering sociopaths that kill innocents for sport, get them all to engage in animal abuse. The way that the kid who grows up to become a serial killer abuses and mutilates animals. I think we're only going to uncover more and more lunatic asylum like behavior among the dictator's supporters & regime as more of the regime gets laid bare. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 23:33
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Competition posted:Look up the Haditha killings and the various reports in wikileaks of heavy handed assaults against civilians by the US military (which were subsiquently brushed aside), combined with ASPA being passed where it's only goal is to protect US troops from being prosecuted for war crimes and authorises the invasion of the Netherlands to do so. The US military has gained a reputation it seems completely unconcerned about. No, I think he means where Iraqis went out of their way to find Marines to fight with and let easier Army units walk through their territory. Now that I'd like to read about.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:33
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Nenonen posted:Wasn't the claim of Khamis' death related to the claim of a suicide airplane attack on the Gaddafi complex in Tripoli, which was disproven? Or have there been other claims of his death since? I believe there was a claim he was injured or killed when Gads Tripoli complex was hit.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:34
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Nenonen posted:Wasn't the claim of Khamis' death related to the claim of a suicide airplane attack on the Gaddafi complex in Tripoli, which was disproven? Or have there been other claims of his death since? I think that's where the original claim came from, but it could be two disparate events could have been tied together through the rumor mill. This son hasn't been seen though which is why it persists. Times: I think it has less to do with animal abuse as a signifier of anti-social behavior and more to do with a shared rejection of social norms as a signifier of group solidarity. We're all bastards together. I think animal abuse as the sort of precursor you're talking about follows a different behavior path.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:39
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Vir posted:Welcome to war reporting in the Greater Middle East.  At least she's an older woman, I'm willing to give her a bit of a pass.Alright, so it sounds like there is still information coming in about the aircraft loss and pilot rescue. Let me see if I have it straight so far. Two guys ejected at high altitude after a malfunction, and landed apart unsurprisingly. Next, a pair of patrol jets (Harriers) saw armored vehicles headed his way, suspected them hostile, and did a threatening flyover. The armored vehicles did not adjust course, so they dropped small precision bombs. Neither side has reported casualties resembling those losses. An earlier report (perhaps now amended?) suggests that one of the downed pilots may have requested the strike to ward off unknown forces inbound on his position. That does not necessarily conflict, as "I see things coming to me, can you scare them off" from the pilot might equate to "Okay we see vehicles moving to him" for the Harriers... although that's more speculation trying to rectify the discrepency. Two Osprey helicopteresque aircraft are sent to conduct a rescue of one pilot after the other is safely in rebel hands. Eyewitnesses say they did see helicopter(s) arrive to rescue the pilot. One reporter suggests the (by all accounts unarmed) Ospreys fired upon a crowd of civilians with what must have been small caliber weapons to warn them. A couple reports of other aircraft strafing, but no outside reports of the Harrier jets dropping their bombs. Is there more or less where things stand?
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Mar 22, 2011 23:43
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Nenonen posted:Wasn't the claim of Khamis' death related to the claim of a suicide airplane attack on the Gaddafi complex in Tripoli, which was disproven? Or have there been other claims of his death since? It hasn't been disproven, there is lots of speculation about it but until Khamis turns up somewhere or the wreckage of a plane is found in the rubble then we won't know for sure. We know a Tomahawk fired from a Royal Navy submarine levelled one building in his compound, but did that attack kill him? Did a suicide bomber? Is he dead at all? gently caress knows. It does seem a bit unlikely that even a rebel plane would be flying around over Tripoli though. Ireland Sucks fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 23:44
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Chronojam posted:
Yeah, that's pretty much the gist of it. Still doesn't make a ton of sense, as you see.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:47
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As farraday mentioned the reason they're doing this to a dog is most likely because of the many passages that Muhammad wrote about dogs in the Holy Quran. Basically this training is teaching the men "Put your faith in Country before God." Lots of societies have all sorts of bizarre rituals to do similar things for thousands of years so it isn't surprising. Still weird as hell.
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Mar 22, 2011 23:48
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Korak posted:As farraday mentioned the reason they're doing this to a dog is most likely because of the many passages that Muhammad wrote about dogs in the Holy Quran. Basically this training is teaching the men "Put your faith in Country before God." Lots of societies have all sorts of bizarre rituals to do similar things for thousands of years so it isn't surprising. Still weird as hell. That and ritual animal abuse/slaughter/mutilation has a psychological effect in hardening troops to commit atrocity on your behalf. If you can get them to abuse a dog like that, you can certainly get them to massacre innocent civilians. Of course, troops used to bullying/murdering the defenseless are in for a surprise against trained forces - not one of those men would last a minute alone with a US marine. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 23:51
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Times posted:That and ritual animal abuse/slaughter/mutilation has a psychological effect in hardening troops to commit atrocity on your behalf. If you can get them to abuse a dog like that, you can certainly get them to massacre innocent civilians. I think your context for that is a little too westernized bourgeoisie where physical butchery of animals happens steps removed from consumption, but I can't swear that it makes a difference to what you're talking about and it's not really all that relevant to the point. I would not particularly mind if the video there resulted in Khaddafi getting buried in fatwas from leading scholars. In other news. Biden's reassuring the UAE we're still cool. BBC: quote:# Unfortunately he then asked them if they'd heard about this Bahrain thing which he described as a "big loving deal," at which point the call ended. In the area of non explosive aid AJE quote:12:49am farraday fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Mar 23, 2011 |
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Mar 23, 2011 00:03
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AJE posted:Turkey blocks no-fly zone role for NATO http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/03/2011322181336891487.html I suppose this just means the idea of allowing NATO to take command is ruled out, as it seemed this issue was jumping between the UN, Coalition, and NATO countries. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Mar 23, 2011 |
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Mar 23, 2011 00:11
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The whole NATO debate is dumb precisely because they're still going to use the organizational structure and intel that NATO provides. To quote Shakespeare, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet." Call it whatever the Arab League wants, the same process will likely go down. Actually it's worse if NATO isn't directly involved since this removes some serious accountability to the mission. Geneva and other treaties still have be followed but specific NATO mission directives get to be tossed out the window since this mission isn't technically under the umbrella of NATO.
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Mar 23, 2011 00:20
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