Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

So technically, the Libyans would be right if they say that no such plane was shot down. It was destroyed on the ground.

About that funeral without any apparent family members present - Nick Robertson said that at least one of the coffins was empty.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 15:54

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:39

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I saw a video of one of the funerals where a young boy was holding his nose like something smelt awful.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 15:58

richardm: Jul 15, 2004

quote:

Reuters says thousands of people are taking part in a funeral procession in Deraa for people killed in the unrest - they are calling for political freedom.

BBC are currently reporting gunfire in Deraa city centre

# ? Mar 25, 2011 16:19

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Syria

quote:

Guardian Syrian troops have opened fire on protesters in the restive southern city of Deraa according to vivid new reports coming from AP.

quote:
The troops started shooting on the crowds after they set fire to a bronze statue of the country's late president, according to a resident on the scene.

Tens of thousands of Syrians were taking to the streets across the country in the most widespread civil unrest in years, defying crowds of government backers and baton-wielding security forces to shout their support of the uprising in Daraa, according to witnesses, activists and footage posted online.

Thousands flooded Deraa's central Assad Square, many from nearby villages, chanting "Freedom! Freedom!" and waving Syrian flags and olive branches, a resident told The Associated Press by telephone.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 16:23

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Here's Kristof from the NYT's view of the intervention:

quote:

Granted, intervention will be inconsistent. We�re more likely to intervene where there are also oil or security interests at stake. But just as it�s worthwhile to feed some starving children even if we can�t reach them all, it�s worth preventing some massacres or genocides even if we can�t intervene every time.

Updates from the Guardian:

quote:

Some interesting lines from a Reuters round-up of Libya, particularly suggestions that members of Gaddafi's circle are putting out feelers on a ceasefire or safe passage.

Messages seeking some kind of peaceful end to UN-backed military action or a safe exit for members of Gaddafi's entourage have been sent via intermediaries in Austria, Britain and France, said Roger Tamraz, a Middle Eastern businessman with long experience conducting deals with the Libyan regime.

At the UN, envoys said Sudan had quietly granted permission to use its airspace to nations enforcing the no-fly zone. Sudan's UN ambassador, Daffa-Alla Elhag Ali Osman, neither confirmed nor denied that report.

South of the Sahara, local media quoted a cabinet minister as saying Uganda would freeze Libyan assets worth about $375m in line with a UN resolution imposing sanctions on Libya following Gaddafi's violence crackdown.

quote:

President Saleh of Yemen has told thousands of supporters in Sana'a that he was prepared to hand over power but only to what he described as "safe hands". This from Reuters. It's unlikely to satisfy the opposition, who want him out immediately.

"We don't want power, but we need to hand power over to safe hands, not to sick, resentful or corrupt hands ... We are ready to leave power but only for safe hands," Saleh said in the speech shown on state TV, as tens of thousands of his opponents protested in another part of the capital. "We are against firing a single bullet and when we give concessions this is to ensure there is no bloodshed. We will remain steadfast and challenge them with all power we have."

quote:

The African Union has called for a transition period in Libya that would lead to democratic elections. The head of the AU told a meeting in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, that a consensus was possible. Libyan officials and representatives of the rebels are reported to be in Addis. This from AP.

African Union commission chairman Jean Ping said in an opening speech that the AU favours an inclusive transitional period that would lead to democratic elections. Ping stressed the inevitability of political reforms in Libya, and said that he believes a consensus can be reached. He called the aspirations of the Libyan people "legitimate."

"We are convinced that there is enough base to reach a consensus and find a durable solution in Libya," he said.

Syria:

quote:

Syrian security men seized dozens of people who staged a brief pro-democracy march in Damascus, Reuters reports, while thousands of protesters in Deraa have been chanting slogans denouncing Maher al-Assad, the president's brother.

quote:

Our contact in Damascus has just emailed about the tense mood in the city before Friday prayers.

Damascus's streets were quiet as this morning, as they usually are before Friday prayers. However, there is a increased sense of tension - as well as plain clothed security agents who have been a feature of the streets for the week.

Big protests have been called for today across the country. I have not yet witnessed any but half an hour ago, groups of pro-Assad supporters - a feature of the past few days - drove round Damascus waving flags and photographs of the president.

After the pledges to consider reform made by the government early yesterday evening, Syrians across the country were at home last night processing what they meant and whether it changes the game today. "I do not think it will be enough; anger rose at the killings in Deraa and these announcements - which didn't offer anything solid - may have only added to that," said one man late last night.

quote:

More from our contact in Syria on demonstrations in Damascus and Aleppo. Worth adding that the mosque is a huge tourist attraction so it must be embarrassing for the authorities that a call for freedom is coming from this landmark.

Eyewitnesses told the Guardian that around 200 anti-government protesters were dispersed from the Omyyad mosque in Damascus this morning. Similar to last week, a call for "freedom" came from someone inside the mosque which was then entered at by pro-Assad supporters and security forces. Security forces used rough treatment - beating and arresting at least two, witnesses said. Other worshippers quickly left the mosque. In Aleppo, contacts said again only 200 anti-government protesters were seen, contrary to some reports. The gathering was quickly broken up and replaced by hundreds of supporters of the president, Bashar al-Assad.

quote:

Syrian troops have opened fire on protesters in the restive southern city of Deraa according to vivid new reports coming from AP.

The troops started shooting on the crowds after they set fire to a bronze statue of the country's late president, according to a resident on the scene.

Tens of thousands of Syrians were taking to the streets across the country in the most widespread civil unrest in years, defying crowds of government backers and baton-wielding security forces to shout their support of the uprising in Daraa, according to witnesses, activists and footage posted online.

Thousands flooded Deraa's central Assad Square, many from nearby villages, chanting "Freedom! Freedom!" and waving Syrian flags and olive branches, a resident told The Associated Press by telephone.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 16:23

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

For those just getting out of bed:
Live Blogs March 25th
LibyaFeb17.com
AJE Libya
AJE Syria
BBC
Guardian

Twitter

cioxx posted:

Here's a curated list of Twitter personalities I'm working on. Some of them from Brown Moses suggestions throughout the thread.
http://twitter.com/revolister/libya

As far as I can tell the situation in Misrata and Zintan is coalition airstrikes have weakened Gaddafi's forces, and today there's much less shelling then on previous days. The problem is now that after days of being under seige both cities are having problems with food and medical supplies. Misrata's port appears to be free of Gaddafi forces, but Zintan is pretty much cut off at the moment.

Coalition forces are still chipping away at Gaddafi's troops in Ajdabiya, and while it's no longer under seige there's still no safe path into the city from Benghazi. It does sound like there's been some recent bombings of Gaddafi's troops in the east of the city, and more reinforcements arriving for the rebels.

Tripoli has come under more attacks, and after a fuel tanker was turned away from Tripoli it looks like fuel is becoming a rare resource. Questionable funerals of empty coffins and very smelly corpses have been taking place, and the regime is still struggling to come up with any civilian casualities to show the press, even though they claim 100's have died.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 16:42

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Bahrain

quote:

Guardian Security forces in Bahrain quickly snuffed out small protests in Manama, Reuters reports.

quote:
Helicopters buzzing overhead, extra checkpoints erected on major highways and a large troop presence prevented any major demonstration from kicking off in the small Gulf Arab island kingdom.

A few hundred protesters managed a short rally in the Shia village of Diraz, shouting "down with the regime" as women swathed in black waved Bahraini flags and held up copies of the Quran. But they fled when when around 100 riot police fired tear gas and tried to chase them down.

In the village of al-Dair, police fired rounds of tear gas to disperse around 100 protesters who had marched toward a main road next to a runway at Bahrain international airport.

Residents in nearby streets rushed women and children into their house as police continued to loose tear gas. They said police had also fired birdshot ammunition at protesters.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 16:46

Pureauthor: Jul 8, 2010; ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

Logistically, how difficult would it be to get food/water/blankets/misc. supplies to places like Misrata? I would have assumed the UN and NATO would have to have made some provisions for humanitarian aid as part of the NFZ.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 17:30

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Pureauthor posted:

Logistically, how difficult would it be to get food/water/blankets/misc. supplies to places like Misrata? I would have assumed the UN and NATO would have to have made some provisions for humanitarian aid as part of the NFZ.

It depends how secure the port is. Any ships can be escorted to Misrata by the coalition forces, it's just a matter of ensuring the safety of the ship once it's there. I'm pretty certain I saw some reports of the the coalition planning to evacuate trapped foreign workers from Misrata soon, so it might already be in hand.

Interesting report from the BBC:

quote:

The rebel-controlled radio in Al-Bayda, eastern Libya, has been speaking to a regular guest, Colonel Ahmad, who assures listeners that the liberation of Ajdabiya is "imminent".

There's been an increase in discussion about a big push to take Ajdabiya very soon, so this might back that up even more.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 17:38

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

President Assad is relatively popular in Syria (or at least still was last I heard) isn't he? If he does give the protesters what they want and lifts the state of emergency shouldn't it calm back down? Or has this kind of snowballed beyond that at this point.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 17:56

DonT15: Oct 31, 2010

List of Relevant Countries by Population:

Egypt: 79,983,000
Iran: 75,078,000
Algeria: 36,300,000
Morocco: 32,098,000
Iraq: 31,467,000
Afghanistan: 29,117,000
Saudi Arabia: 27,136,977
Yemen: 22,492,035
Ivory Coast: 21,571,000
Syria: 20,983,000
Tunisia: 10,549,100
Israel: 7,708,400
Libya: 6,546,000
Jordan: 6,472,000
United Arab Emirates: 4,707,000
Lebanon: 4,255,000
Palestine: 3,935,249
Mauritania: 3,366,000
Kuwait: 3,051,000
Oman: 2,694,094
Qatar: 1,696,563
Djibouti: 854,000
Bahrain: 807,000
Western Sahara: 530,000
__________________________________________

For some reason, it took me until now to compare the various populations of the relevant countries in all this Middle-Eastern and African turmoil.

I was incredibly surprised to learn that despite covering a similar-sized territory on a map, Libya's population is less than 1/10 of Egypt's, and far smaller than Yemen's also.

I was also incredibly surprised to learn that despite being a smaller country on a map, Yemen's population is not much smaller than Saudi Arabia's, and much larger than Libya's. For some reason, I thought Yemen's population was more comparable to Oman's.

Because it took me so long to figure out these basic facts; call me stupid or whatever you want. Population is surely a non-indicator of power in the world (compare: China vs. USA, or Saudi Arabia vs. Iran). Even so, it was interesting to figure out how many people's lives would change in a Yemeni revolution vs. a Libyan revolution, and so on.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 17:59

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

DonT15 posted:

Because it took me so long to figure out these basic facts; call me stupid or whatever you want. Population is surely a non-indicator of power in the world (compare: China vs. USA, or Saudi Arabia vs. Iran). Even so, it was interesting to figure out how many people's lives would change in a Yemeni revolution vs. a Libyan revolution, and so on.

Well it's a bit tricky trying to guess middle eastern/north african pop numbers by a map. When lots of the land is inhospitable desert, the area of the country in square miles doesn't really correlate to how many people live there.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 18:08

cioxx: Jul 14, 2001

Okay, I've been pretty open-minded about some of the claims, but I'm 99% sure this is absolute bullshit.

quote:

CORRECTION: #Misrata: 30 snipers captured or killed in the morning, 70 by the evening. An estimated 200 still left. #Libya #Feb17

http://twitter.com/LibyanDictator/status/51334556044898304

# ? Mar 25, 2011 18:35

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

There must be a translation misinterpretation or something. I think the use of the word 'snipers' is a misnomer. Our historical idea of a sniper is a guy sitting in a dark room or a bell tower taking specific aim. One shot, one kill sort of thing. I'm betting when we hear reports of 'snipers' it's indiscriminant fire or people shooting from an advantage (from the roof to the street, etc.)

If you take it in this context, the idea of a 'sniper' being captured or killed in those numbers is far more likely.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 18:45

Cartouche: Jan 4, 2011

Sten Freak posted:

Even with good intelligence, sophisticated targeting and guidance systems and thorough planning civilians will be injured and die from these air strikes. Mistakes are made, ordnance doesn't perform as expected and people simply can be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course the government wants reporters to write about them but unfortunately they are as much of a part of war as anything else.

I would add that while the typical American citizen seems to have a tendency to run away from things exploding, or have exploded, it looks like a whole different mindset in the middle-eastern part of the world. I'm actually getting used to seeing guys and children climbing over, around and into blown up cars, tanks, planes, buildings. In regards to the reporters, they themselves are beginning to piss me off, by flocking (often by invitation) to places that were just stuck, and were about to be struck again.

Like refs in hockey, I can appreciate the need for news coverage, but if they happen to get in the line of a massive shoulder check, or bombing run, I am finding it harder to dredge up sympathy.

IN general, collateral damage sucks. But if you willingly put yourself in that situation, QQ moar.

edit: a nod to those who cannot for one reason or another avoid said collateral.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 18:46

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

Sivias posted:

There must be a translation misinterpretation or something. I think the use of the word 'snipers' is a misnomer. Our historical idea of a sniper is a guy sitting in a dark room or a bell tower taking specific aim. One shot, one kill sort of thing. I'm betting when we hear reports of 'snipers' it's indiscriminant fire or people shooting from an advantage (from the roof to the street, etc.)

If you take it in this context, the idea of a 'sniper' being captured or killed in those numbers is far more likely.

A sniper is a guy who knows how to use the iron sights on an AK and can kill someone 100 meters away from a rooftop.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 19:02

Homeroom Fingering: Apr 25, 2009; The secret history (((they))) don't want you to know

Well NATO decided who's going to be in charge.

quote:

Canadian general Charles Bouchard is taking over command of NATO's military operations in Libya.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-gen-charles-bouchard-taking-over-command-natos-20110325-082154-632.html

Don't normally come into SA from work, but after reading the dipshit comments on there I needed to follow along somewhere where people are at least informed in the slightest. Did you know that it's a unilateral US oil grab that's killing more civilians than Gadaffi does that's going to make Canada a target for terrorists? :downswords:

# ? Mar 25, 2011 19:24

Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

Cartouche posted:

I'm actually getting used to seeing guys and children climbing over, around and into blown up cars, tanks, planes, buildings. In regards to the reporters, they themselves are beginning to piss me off, by flocking (often by invitation) to places that were just stuck, and were about to be struck again.

Well, fire crews and ambulances may have a reason to be there, as might reporters, but yes you're right that it's dangerous when crowds form. It might happen both when it's the enemy (jubilation), but in other countries we've seen it happen also when it's their own guys (rage, curiosity, passing around body parts of the martyrs). You can see gruesome examples by doing an image search for "car swarm", but hopefully they're not doing that stuff in Libya.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 19:38

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007; Can't post for 18 hours!

tetsul posted:

Well NATO decided who's going to be in charge.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-gen-charles-bouchard-taking-over-command-natos-20110325-082154-632.html

Don't normally come into SA from work, but after reading the dipshit comments on there I needed to follow along somewhere where people are at least informed in the slightest. Did you know that it's a unilateral US oil grab that's killing more civilians than Gadaffi does that's going to make Canada a target for terrorists?

Everybody is a dipshit except you, right. Also please keep posting from work!

# ? Mar 25, 2011 19:59

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Ajdabiya

quote:

BBC The BBC's Ian Pannell was out in eastern Libya a little earlier, and has just filed his report: "We've just driven in from the eastern side of Ajdabiya heading into the city and in the distance there are plumes of black smoke rising from around the city, there is a fairly constant sound of booms which would suggest artillery mortars perhaps, air burst artillery as well. A number of fighters have headed into the city ahead of us and the crackle of gunfire is audible every few seconds. Last night British jets attacked government troops here and that's given succour to the rebels. Without it, they're simply out-gunned and unable to fight for control and protect the people who live here."

Zintan

quote:

BBC Adel, the head of the rebels' media committee in the town of Zintan, has told the BBC: "Life is coming back to normal. We pushed the army back. People in other nearby towns and cities came to help us force the Gaddafi army back. We also got lots of weapons from the retreating army and we used them to push them back further. Two days ago, we managed to capture a truck with with 180 missiles in it, so we started using them. We destroyed seven tanks and a number of 4-wheel-drive trucks."

Misarata

quote:

BBC LibyanDictator in a couple of tweets: "#Misrata experiencing heavy shelling in residential area, shelling targeting houses and flat blocks specifically. Gaddafi forces ambushed by #Misrata fighters: 3 Toyotas with anti aircraft destroyed, 7 captured. Most mercenaries got away. #Libya #Feb17"

NFZ

quote:

BBC US Vice-Admiral Gortney says the US is "using every tool in our tool box" to cut off contact between the Libyan leadership in Tripoli and pro-Gaddafi forces on the ground.

Oprah

quote:

BBC Reuters flashes an interesting news line from Libyan state TV: Col Gaddafi has apparently promoted all members of the armed forces.

A full quote on Reuters of state TV's announcement on promotions: "Brother leader of the revolution has issued a decision to promote all members of the armed people who are currently drafted in his various military units for their heroic and courageous fight against the crusader, colonialist assault."

# ? Mar 25, 2011 20:32

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

A former family in Misarata :nms:

# ? Mar 25, 2011 20:35

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007; Can't post for 18 hours!

That's the first video out of any of these battlefields in a while, it's been really lovely relying on twitter to get anything concrete, and it's loving terrible when I was wanting something approaching concrete, it's a video of a family that looks like they got hit with artillery. This is too hosed up.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 20:37

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Looks like buccaneers have joined the rebel cause.

I hope that this guy becomes the first Libyan president :yarr:

# ? Mar 25, 2011 20:45

Homeroom Fingering: Apr 25, 2009; The secret history (((they))) don't want you to know

Nonsense posted:

Everybody is a dipshit except you, right. Also please keep posting from work!

When you have people saying "Muslims are always killing each other, why would you want to stop them?", if anything said about China's actions during this action that isn't out and out hostility is done by one of THEM working undercover, and how this operation is all a Zionist plot I wouldn't think it's too judgemental to consider them dipshits.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 20:47

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

Nenonen posted:

Looks like buccaneers have joined the rebel cause.

I hope that this guy becomes the first Libyan president

Is that a flare gun in his right hand?

# ? Mar 25, 2011 20:47

Nombres: Jul 16, 2009

Nuclearmonkee posted:

Is that a flare gun in his right hand?

He'll still find a way to take out a tank brigade with it.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 20:49

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

Nombres posted:

He'll still find a way to take out a tank brigade with it.

Maybe he will do the whole action movie star thing and ignite some flammable substance at range via flare and then walk towards the camera while the tank explodes behind him.

And from reading AJE and some other sources, it does indeed look like the Syria protests are starting to snowball beyond just "we want emergency law ended". If Assad doesn't want to have to choose between murdering thousands of his people or keeping power he should probably just lift the state of emergency and hope thats enough to make people stop before it gets worse.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 20:54

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Nombres posted:

He'll still find a way to take out a tank brigade with it.

If a Webley & Scott 1.5" flare gun is good enough for Boba Fett, it should be good for anyone!

# ? Mar 25, 2011 21:08

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Brown Moses posted:

quote:
BBC Reuters flashes an interesting news line from Libyan state TV: Col Gaddafi has apparently promoted all members of the armed forces.

A full quote on Reuters of state TV's announcement on promotions: "Brother leader of the revolution has issued a decision to promote all members of the armed people who are currently drafted in his various military units for their heroic and courageous fight against the crusader, colonialist assault."

So does this make Gaddafi a general now?

# ? Mar 25, 2011 21:15

Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

A flare gun is a step up from a toy gun at least. Also, might he be a Barbary pirate? :yarr:

As for Syria, Assad would do a real masterstroke if he lifted emergency law, called for elections as early as their laws would allow, and perhaps even offered to send fighter planes to enforce the no-fly zone in Libya. It does seem more probable that he's promising some concessions to buy time for a crackdown though.

I'm quite worried about the reports from Jordan. If security forces let pro-government protesters clash with anti-government protesters, that is a very worrying development. If they're not prosecuted, we could be seeing Jordan taking a turn for the worse. I didn't expect that.

:norway:

Norway has expended its first munitions in this conflict: Three guided bombs hit tanks.

Vir fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Mar 25, 2011

# ? Mar 25, 2011 21:17

Cjones: Jul 4, 2008; Democracia Socrates, MD

Xandu posted:

So does this make Gaddafi a general now?

"General" doesn't exist in the Libyan military

# ? Mar 25, 2011 21:17

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Xandu posted:

So does this make Gaddafi a general now?

How could it? He has no position.

Jordan is a worrying development, but as I understand it protests there are still fairly small scale thanks to belief in the King. If the death today hurts that trust you could see wider protests again like those that caused him to sack the government in January.

Syria is a situation I think is still developing. I'm not sanguine about Bashar's ability to avoid using military repression I'm not sure repealing Emergency law is a reasonable proposition for the Baath party. I suppose it depends on how much control Bashar really has over his subordinates.

P.S. I liked your Oprah joke Moses.

Edit// We're seeing increasing reports that the rebels have pushed into Ajdabiya from the east. Hopefully the city will return to rebel hands just after I finally manage to consistently spell it correctly without checking.

farraday fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Mar 25, 2011

# ? Mar 25, 2011 21:31

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

Nonsense posted:

That's the first video out of any of these battlefields in a while, it's been really lovely relying on twitter to get anything concrete, and it's loving terrible when I was wanting something approaching concrete, it's a video of a family that looks like they got hit with artillery. This is too hosed up.

There seem to be quite a few videos coming out every day but if you don't speak Arabic they are impossible to find until pointed out by someone on Twitter or one of the "Libyan Youth" sites.
I know one group in Zintan has it's own youtube channel that's updated frequently with videos supporting the reports of their recent successes, but all in Arabic so without context it's hard say what's really going on. Another channel exists for Misurata and there must be more that are not getting uploaded to Youtube but posted on Facebook or other sites in Arabic language.
It's drat shame Mohamed Nabous got killed, without doubt he would be providing English language reporting from the front lines in Ajdabiya right now.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 21:42

Competition: Apr 3, 2006; by Fistgrrl

Vir posted:

OK, but you were saying that civil war was unlikely because larger religious and ethnic demographic divides were required. I pointed out that civil wars also happen based on ideological and/or economic divides.
What the people you responded to were also mentioning, is Syria's location. It's wedged between Turkey, Iraq, Israel, Joran, Israel and Lebanon, all of which might have an interest in how it develops. A full out war between those countries isn't likely though, I'll agree with that, but if it comes to civil war, there might be some foreign involvement.

Even with those other divides it is still one of the least divided in the region.
As for the predictions they included poo poo like Hezbollah backing a fantasy fraction, it was a bunch of misinformed idiots rabbiting on about their fantasy war.

quote:

Yes it has been described as exactly that. In fact, now that foreign countries have become involved, it might even be said to have progressed beyond a civil war.

Aside from the odd post here I have yet to see this uprising described as a civil war beyond Gaddaffi's rhetoric and I have been following these events from multiple news sources.

quote:

I seem to remember that the best units were kept in the western part of the country, because that's where the capital and most of the large cities are, and because Gaddafi cared more about the western part. Some of the largest uprisings were in Az Zawiyah and Misurata.

Source for troop deployments, because I've brought up historical reasons for the divides yet these are ignored in favour of troop deployments that have yet to actually be sourced.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 21:59

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Freigeist posted:

There seem to be quite a few videos coming out every day but if you don't speak Arabic they are impossible to find until pointed out by someone on Twitter or one of the "Libyan Youth" sites.
I know one group in Zintan has it's own youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5WOJEsZUPY

That weapon is an Italian Carcano carbine model 1938 from WW2, with a folding bayonet attached to it. Funny seeing them still in use. It was also a Carcano carbine, but of different model/caliber, that killed JFK.

The description says this is from Az Zintan, in western Libya. He appears to be making his own ammunition. That would be understandable, since I doubt that 6.5x52mm cartridges are easy to find.

It says something about how dire the supply situation is for the western rebels.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 22:18

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Competition posted:

Even with those other divides it is still one of the least divided in the region.
As for the predictions they included poo poo like Hezbollah backing a fantasy fraction, it was a bunch of misinformed idiots rabbiting on about their fantasy war.

Aside from the odd post here I have yet to see this uprising described as a civil war beyond Gaddaffi's rhetoric and I have been following these events from multiple news sources.

Source for troop deployments, because I've brought up historical reasons for the divides yet these are ignored in favour of troop deployments that have yet to actually be sourced.

So, it's based on a historical regional divide, but no it can't be a civil war.

You have a consistency problem. For one, exactly one person said hezbollah would lead a proxy war or anything similar, where as you have been happy to assert that "a bunch" or "Half" or whatever statement you need to feel like you're the sole informed person here holds that view. This on top of declaring OBama is clearly a neo-con based in part on his domestic policy make it pretty clear you're just willing to assert beliefs to people who disagree with you because it's convenient.

It is more accurate that people have repeatedly had problems with your assertions it's impossible for Syria to have a civil war because "demographics" won't allow it and that clearly this can't be a civil war in Libya because the media hasn't referred to it as such.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 22:21

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

These Az Zintan rebel videos are fascinating. According to the description, this is one of four maps found from a battalion commander's car after a defeated army attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45GtjNSU0d0
NATO has GPS and satellite maps, Libyan army has crayons and some paper.

Can someone tell what the notes on the map say?

# ? Mar 25, 2011 22:33

Ramms+ein: Nov 11, 2003; Henshin-a-go-go, baby!

Freigeist posted:

There seem to be quite a few videos coming out every day but if you don't speak Arabic they are impossible to find until pointed out by someone on Twitter or one of the "Libyan Youth" sites.

http://www.youtube.com/user/zintan2011#p/u/5/bWsxVjHl8YE

This one's description say's it's of mopping up around 'Keshaaf' after turning back Gaddaafi's forces. "Revolutionaries of the western mountain and the people of the city of Zintan and our brothers from Adjdabiya and some of the cities of Eastern Libya mop up the (Keshaaf forest?) in Zintan after turning back Gaddaafi's brigades."

Video is of some happy dudes driving down a stretch of road and filming abandoned or destroyed military vehicles and other guys hanging out around them. Frequent gunfire can be heard in the background.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 22:34

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Just checking Twitter and various live blogs, looks like more rebels have entered Misarata, which is significant as the city has been under siege for weeks. That really demonstrates the loss of control by Gaddafi forces of the region. One thing that came up a lot earlier on in the revolution was while the cities were under rebel control all the roads in the west were under the control of Gaddafi forces, so if more rebels are arriving to Misarata from other towns and cities it suggests not only have they broken the seige, but the roads between the cities are no longer guarded or patrolled.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 22:42

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:39

Ramms+ein: Nov 11, 2003; Henshin-a-go-go, baby!

Nenonen posted:

These Az Zintan rebel videos are fascinating. According to the description, this is one of four maps found from a battalion commander's car after a defeated army attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45GtjNSU0d0
NATO has GPS and satellite maps, Libyan army has crayons and some paper.

Can someone tell what the notes on the map say?

No joke, the title on that map is "Detailed Map of the Concentration of Al-Qaida in Zintan".

The narrator says that it shows how to enter Zintan from specific roads coming from four directions. When he points to the little chart at the bottom, it's specifying the weapons to enter from the north: 200 rifles, 2 tanks, 20 AA, 2 (rocket?) launchers and 15 (either assault rifles or machine guns).

He goes on to point out the quantities of weapons to be used in the assault from other directions. I guess the map is oriented with the south at the top. A bigger attack is from the south, with 15,000 rifles, 10 tanks, 20 rocket launchers and 300 "dangerous mines" (as opposed to the other kind, I guess).

The map says that Al-Qaida is based in the Zintan park (the circle with green writing in the middle).

Honestly it looks like something a 4th grader drew, so just at first glance I have a hard time accepting that it's authentic. The numbers of attacking forces, at least of the riflemen, seem very exaggerated. Another 3000 come from the west apparently.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 22:50

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