|
farraday posted:So, it's based on a historical regional divide, but no it can't be a civil war. quote:You have a consistency problem. For one, exactly one person said hezbollah would lead a proxy war or anything similar, where as you have been happy to assert that "a bunch" or "Half" or whatever statement you need to feel like you're the sole informed person here holds that view. quote:This on top of declaring OBama is clearly a neo-con based in part on his domestic policy make it pretty clear you're just willing to assert beliefs to people who disagree with you because it's convenient. quote:It is more accurate that people have repeatedly had problems with your assertions it's impossible for Syria to have a civil war because "demographics" won't allow it and that clearly this can't be a civil war in Libya because the media hasn't referred to it as such. Libya has not yet met the criteria for a civil war it may do so within the next couple of days however, uprisings and civil wars are two different beasts and I'm not going to declare "hurp yeah it's a civil war" based solely on the misinformed posts of a handful here when it has yet to meet the basic criteria and the worlds media has yet to apply the term, it's as misguided as people using the term genocide for what Gaddaffi was planing to do in Benghazi (but hey, if idiots in this thread can't tell the difference between an uprising and a civil war then they most likely cannot tell the difference between an atrocity and a genocide).
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2011 23:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 17:30 |
|
|
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but apparantly AQIM has stolen a bunch of SAMs from a Libyan compound and are smuggling them into Tenere. AQIM is basically the North-African branch of al-Qa'idha, (al-Qa'idha in the Islamic Maghreb)and had some involvement in the uprisings in Libya. No one relly knows to what extent, but probably not as much as both AQIM and Qadaffi want to make out. Source. Wonder who's skies we'll see those missiles in first?
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2011 23:27
|
|
|
Creepy Goat posted:Don't know if this has been posted yet, but apparantly AQIM has stolen a bunch of SAMs from a Libyan compound and are smuggling them into Tenere. AQIM is basically the North-African branch of al-Qa'idha, (al-Qa'idha in the Islamic Maghreb)and had some involvement in the uprisings in Libya. No one relly knows to what extent, but probably not as much as both AQIM and Qadaffi want to make out. Why would anyone trust this source?
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2011 23:38
|
|
|
Nuclearmonkee posted:A sniper is a guy who knows how to use the iron sights on an AK and can kill someone 100 meters away from a rooftop. I wonder how many people get bonked on the head by rounds that the bozos shoot up in the air in "celebration".
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2011 23:47
|
|
|
MothraAttack posted:Why would anyone trust this source? The Agence France-Presse? Or do you mean Chad's president?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 00:00
|
|
|
Cartouche posted:I wonder how many people get bonked on the head by rounds that the bozos shoot up in the air in "celebration". this poo poo happens in America too
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 00:09
|
|
|
Cartouche posted:I wonder how many people get bonked on the head by rounds that the bozos shoot up in the air in "celebration". I keep imagining that Arabic TV stations have all these dopey 1980s style Public Service Announcements trying to get people to stop doing this. Abdul the cartoon camel shows up and goes: "Heeeey kids, shootin' guns is fun, but spraying your AK in the air just ain't cool." Then the rainbow arcs across the screen accompanied by a little musical tinkle and THE MORE YOU KNOW!
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 00:09
|
|
|
MothraAttack posted:Why would anyone trust this source? Whether some missiles have ended in AQ hands or not, it is guaranteed that during a conflict like this a lot of weapons will end in the hands of arms smugglers and will add to the violence in the whole region.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 00:16
|
|
|
Fintilgin posted:I keep imagining that Arabic TV stations have all these dopey 1980s style Public Service Announcements trying to get people to stop doing this. IIRC, fired straight up poses little danger, as gravity saps the velocity of the bullet to nothing, at which it falls under normal gravity. Fired at an angle is where you get problems.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 00:33
|
|
|
Ramms+ein posted:No joke, the title on that map is "Detailed Map of the Concentration of Al-Qaida in Zintan". Thank you. Yes, especially the trees are LOLlific. But then, if it's authentic then I can see how this map would serve a purpose for briefing your troops on the coming mission: it shows things like building profiles which should help forces get oriented. It would suggest that the Libyan field commander has taken his job seriously, trying to gather all important intelligence together and then present it in an easy to grasp form to his subordinates. Kind of like Powerpoint slides. Force numbers could be what the higher ups had planned to send for the mission, but it doesn't mean that those numbers were involved in the actual battle. On paper a brigade should have about 3000 men, but Libyan units aren't at full strength. Furthermore, any snatches in the coordination of the forces (units getting stuck at roadblocks, vehicles breaking down, columns bombed by airforces, men disobeying orders) will drastically weaken those numbers, and a third world army will always have such snatches. So I wouldn't take it as a description of the attack even if it was an authentic army document.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 00:40
|
|
|
Young Freud posted:IIRC, fired straight up poses little danger, as gravity saps the velocity of the bullet to nothing, at which it falls under normal gravity. It's actually more of a problem of the bullet keeping spin. If it begins to tumble then it rapidly slows and becomes much less dangerous. It's pretty hard to fire almost perfectly straight up though and the more likely scenario is you will instead get a parabolic arcand when the bullet lands it will still be going fast enough to potentially injure or kill. Even a very high arc can be dangerous.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 00:41
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Thank you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bBz-5XN3CE&feature=related In the second video of the series they look at another more detailed "map" of downtown zintan where the narrator points out all the places where al-Qaida is indicated on the map. Particularly, inside the Hospital, which is also labeled with a red crescent, the caption reads "unfortunately al-Qaida is located in it". At the bottom of the map he reads the note indicating to the hills: The al-Qaida organization takes a position in the mountain in order to attack the armed combatant forces." He says, "so, they're the fighting combatant forces and we're al-Qaida. That's disgraceful..." Later on he says all the talk about al-Qaida is what's making Libyans kill their brothers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 01:07
|
|
|
Competition posted:Quote me where I said it is impossible, please quote me, link the god drat post now where I used to the word impossible, do it now. "Syria isn't a candidate for civil war because it is one of the least demographically diverse Arab nations in pretty much every category, A civil war needs to fall upon dividing lines of some sort, yes there is a power imbalance where one small Islamic sect disproportionately holds the position of power but their numbers are so small that it simply cannot sustain a civil war." I'm so sorry you didn't use the word impossible, you just categorically ruled it out. "Least likely" is not the term you used, it's right there, you said cannot. To use your own words "You, idiot, are citing demographics to say Syria can not have a civil war, it displays complete loving stupidity and can only come from not understanding anything about what a civil war involves" Get over yourself.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 01:08
|
|
|
trollstormur posted:this poo poo happens in America too Oh, give me a break. Yeah, large groups of full-auto wielding groups letting fly with mag dumps into the air in public. Happens all the time! This just in: we cannot afford to waste ammo like that here
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 01:21
|
|
|
Cartouche posted:Oh, give me a break. Yeah, large groups of full-auto wielding groups letting fly with mag dumps into the air in public. Happens all the time! Happens a lot here in the Southwest during various holidays, especially drunk fools. I don't know how common it is, but when I was in middle school a round fell through somebodies roof and killed a kid sleeping in their room during New Years. edit: NOW Automatic gunfire, woah, I don't think people do that around here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 01:49
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:Happens a lot here in the Southwest during various holidays, especially drunk fools. I don't know how common it is, but when I was in middle school a round fell through somebodies roof and killed a kid sleeping in their room during New Years. Given this was the plot of an episode of CSI, I'm surprised it could actually happen in real life. e: not calling you a liar, just surprised it's possible. e2: On a related note, I came across this just now - a bit more on the Canadian general who's taking command of the NATO mission in Libya can be read here, though some of the stuff might already have been mentioned. Also, given that the government has fallen, does anyone have idea how this will affect the Candian forces currently in action? Narmi fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Mar 26, 2011 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 02:57
|
|
|
Competition posted:Libya has not yet met the criteria for a civil war it may do so within the next couple of days however, uprisings and civil wars are two different beasts and I'm not going to declare "hurp yeah it's a civil war" based solely on the misinformed posts of a handful here when it has yet to meet the basic criteria and the worlds media has yet to apply the term, it's as misguided as people using the term genocide for what Gaddaffi was planing to do in Benghazi (but hey, if idiots in this thread can't tell the difference between an uprising and a civil war then they most likely cannot tell the difference between an atrocity and a genocide). Dude, listen to yourself. You're literally fuming over people for using inherently loaded terms like 'civil war' and 'genocide', the definition and scope of which are both hotly contested, even in academic circles. While they may or may not necessarily apply to the situation in Libya as it unfolds, it is ridiculous and unfair to criticize people for using such terms when many of their descriptors and definitions paint an accurate portrait of what is currently going on, or at the very least provide a reasonable sketch. I can only speculate that you either have a disturbingly intimate relationship with the Oxford English dictionary (although given your use of 'neo-con' this seems somewhat unlikely), or are simply grasping at straws because people keep calling you on your bullshit. But to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what the hell you're trying to accomplish with all this.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 03:30
|
|
|
quote:quote: So, uh, there are no more privates in the Libyan army? Who do the corporals boss around? 
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 03:55
|
|
|
I suppose parts of the army are catching on to the fact that NATO has hosed them without really lifting a finger, and they will be violently purged if Gadaffi holds on to power, because nothing says morale problems like "PROMOTIONS FOR EVERYONE!". But at least they're not being burned alive anymore. (I hope)
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 04:12
|
|
|
al-Jazeera is reporting (via NowLebanon) that all roads into Latakia have been closed. Which is a bit scary because it's one of the biggest cities in Syria.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 04:32
|
|
|
Xandu posted:al-Jazeera is reporting (via NowLebanon) that all roads into Latakia have been closed. Which is a bit scary because it's one of the biggest cities in Syria. Latakia is on the coast, no where near Daara and I have not heard it as being especially troublesome. I wonder if this local reaction or planned statewide we're only getting a partial glimpse of. Even presuming it's a step prior to a major crackdown, it implies a loss of control in Latakia far greater than what has been generally reported.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 04:50
|
|
|
Ghetto Prince posted:I suppose parts of the army are catching on to the fact that NATO has hosed them without really lifting a finger, and they will be violently purged if Gadaffi holds on to power, because nothing says morale problems like "PROMOTIONS FOR EVERYONE!". NPR reported this afternoon that CQ was asking for volunteers to join the army. (Knowing the speed at which news gets to the thread vs. the rest of the world this has probably been discussed thirty pages back) If you figure that half the guys fighting for him weren't getting paid anyways it makes sense from a certain perspective. It would also balance out the amateur vs. professional balance between the rebels and CQ's troops. Maybe they can all bring toy guns and fight it out like six year olds, yelling "pew pew" and "Got ya".
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 05:04
|
|
|
Darth Brooks posted:Maybe they can all bring toy guns and fight it out like six year olds, yelling "pew pew" and "Got ya". Yea, but you know who will pull that 'force field' poo poo and ruin the game....
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 06:01
|
|
|
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=101957186554553&oid=197898230226131&comments CNN video of a heavily attacked hospital in Benghazi that is still operating. edit: and from yesterday, apologizes if this was posted already http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/afric...SS%3A+Health%29 Another video of a hospital in Misrata, operating without anesthesia or regular electricity (just a generator) in the middle of a warzone. Xandu fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Mar 26, 2011 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 06:55
|
|
|
In other developments, Obama has recognized Alassane Ouattara as the legal leader of Ivory Coast. Now what, Laurent Gbagbo?  Yep, it's just that pressure has been slowly increasing on him to  and now it's reached a point of no return. If Ouattara is internationally recognized to be the real leader, it means that his government will eg. be able to claim control over any Ivory Coast assets held in foreign banks, or formally call for international forces to help in removing Gbagbo. What can Gbagbo do any more? I guess we'll find out, soon I hope...VVVV Nenonen fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Mar 26, 2011 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 09:56
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:In other developments, Obama has recognized Alassane Ouattara as the legal leader of Ivory Coast. Now what, Laurent Gbagbo? We're talking about the same guy who simply refused to acknowledge it when he was voted out of power, aren't we?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 10:04
|
|
|
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/25/kenneth-clarke-fears-new-lockerbie Kenneth Clarke has ratcheted up government pressure to depose Colonel Gaddafi by warning that the Libyan leader could stage a Lockerbie-style attack in revenge for Britain's role in the enforcement of the UN resolution if he is left in power. The lord chancellor told the Guardian: "We do have one particular interest in the Maghreb [the western region of North Africa], which is Lockerbie. "The British people have reason to remember the curse of Gaddafi – Gaddafi back in power, the old Gaddafi looking for revenge, we have a real interest in preventing that." Clarke says in the interview that the UN resolution does not support regime change, adding that he would regard occupation as madness. But his remarks suggest British ministers recognise they now have a direct security interest in Gaddafi's removal in light of Libya's involvement in the 1988 Lockerbie bombing which killed 259 people on Pan Am flight 103 and 11 on the ground in the Scottish town. The justice secretary is also extremely frank in admitting that the UK government has little idea how long the conflict will take or how it will be resolved. He says: "I am not in the Foreign Office, fortunately, so I am not too worried by my remarks. But I am still not totally convinced anyone knows where we are going now". His remarks came as a Guardian ICM poll shows more people oppose British involvement in the military action in Libya than support it: 42% against, compared with 36% in favour. Asked about the purpose of British involvement, 80% support protecting civilians from attack by Gaddafi and 42% said the intervention should help Libyan rebels depose Gaddafi. Clarke himself contends that "the British people will support us for as long as it takes, so long as they think we are protecting innocent civilians, many of whom seem to share our values against an evil dictator". Clarke, who was an opponent of the Iraq war and a critic of "havering" over Bosnia, said the UN resolution on Libya "represented a significant event in the evolution of the world order". Speaking as the cabinet's senior lawyer, he said: "What we seem to have almost established in the international law is the humanitarian basis which can, in exceptional cases, justify intervention by the international community." He admitted victory would be hard to define: "ou cannot answer what is the destination, what it is going to be the moment when you can see the mission is accomplished. It is a little uncertain, but that would have been a dreadful reason for doing nothing." He added that no expert or pundit had foreseen the democratic uprising in Libya: "I don't think any of them saw it coming. I don't think any of them knew why it started or what started it. He said: "We have already achieved a great deal by stopping the imminent invasion of Benghazi in the nick of time. We would have seen a lot of innocent people, some of them inspired by the best motives, being killed and a quite lunatic regime back in power, acting as an inspiration to others who want to imitate him. So we have already achieved something." He admitted there was a risk that Libya could divide: "There has never been any love lost between Tripoli and Benghazi. I don't think at the moment, even on the ground in Libya, the average person who is shooting at the other side is quite clear where this is going to wind up." Asked if the public would tolerate a long war, Clarke said: "We have strong public support – but, I mean, the invasion of Iraq had strong public support." The public, he said, "will support our participation so long as they are satisfied we are doing it for reasons we said and we are not getting ourselves into the occupation of another complicated tribal country of uncertain politics." He admitted members of the Obama administration that he had met "had not been interested in Arab uprisings", and had had enough of military adventures. He said: "We are not going in anyone's dreams, [going] in to start occupying the country. We have ruled it out in the resolution, thank heavens. It would be mad to occupy another country while we are in Afghanistan."
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 10:17
|
|
|
Live blogs 26th March BBC AJE LibyaFeb17.com cioxx posted:Here's a curated list of Twitter personalities I'm working on. Some of them from Brown Moses suggestions throughout the thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 10:26
|
|
|
Tripoliquote:BBC "Civilian and military sites" in Tripoli were bombarded by the "colonialist crusader aggressor" at dawn, Libya's Jana news agency reports. Ajdabiya quote:BBC Rebels say they have seized control of the strategic eastern oil town of Ajdabiya, following a seventh night of Western air strikes. quote:AJE Libyan opposition rebels take the key eastern city of Ajdabiya from government control, Al Jazeera's James Bays reports from the city. Bays said: quote:BBC Nicholas Kristof, New York Times tweets: "With Ajdabiya and Misrata, the tide in #Libya seems to be turning. Give the rebels time. Kosovo took 10 weeks." quote:BBC Rebels roll into the strategic eastern city of Ajdabiya tooting car horns and firing into the air in celebration, some shouting "God is great", AFP reports from the city. quote:BBC The BBC's Ben Brown at the eastern gate of Ajdabiya says he has seen 20 government tanks, armoured vehicles and artillery pieces that have been either destroyed or abandoned. quote:BBC Pro-Gaddafi forces still hold the western gate of Ajdabiya, a resident tells Reuters. That's pretty big news, it's a very important city, and it allows the rebels to move on to Ras Lanuf, then Sirte. Ras Lanuf is a small town, and very spread out and difficult to defend, so I'd expect the rebels wouldn't have any problems capturing that. Even though the western gate might be in control of Gaddafi's forces it seems they'll meet the same fate as the forces at the eastern gate.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 10:31
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:In other developments, Obama has recognized Alassane Ouattara as the legal leader of Ivory Coast. Now what, Laurent Gbagbo? I'm pretty sure this happened 4 months ago right after the election when the US put sanctions on Gbagbo, did Obama do something else? edit: Oh nevermind, I think he originally just recognized him as the winner of the election.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 10:44
|
|
|
Bit more news from Libya, rebels forces are apparently approaching Brega, 50km west of Ajdabiya. This is what Gaddafi does to cities he captures: quote:After the apparent fall of Ajdabiya to anti-Gaddafi forces, rebel fighter Sarhag Agouri tells Reuters: "Ajdabiya is a ghost town. Now there are only dead bodies and families who don't know what to do."
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 11:05
|
|
|
Couple more updates from Twitter:quote:BaghdadBrian It seems gaddafi forces holed up in #ajdabiya are afraid of being attacked by coalition forces if they withdraw #libya quote:alihashem GADDAFI TROOPS RETREATING BACK TO OIL TOWN OF BREGA quote:SultanAlQassemi Al Jazeera: Libyan revolutionaries capture entire town of Ajdabiya & parts of road to Brega. Reporter says road littered with corpses.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 11:27
|
|
|
Why are so many people on Gaddafi's side?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 11:33
|
|
|
Fear that they'll be punished for helping Gaddafi if they lose, fear Gaddafi will kill them if they try to defect, fear they'll be shot if they try to protest.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 11:45
|
|
|
Jaysus posted:Why are so many people on Gaddafi's side? Do you mean inside Libya? It's complicated and a lot of people are hedging their bets. Even if they hate Gaddafi, they don't necessary want to be killed opposing him. And while the view from the US might make it seem like Gaddafi's fall is inevitable, people inside Tripoli or al-Zawiya might not feel the same way. And beyond that, there are people who have benefited from Gaddafi's rule and would suffer if he is deposed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 11:45
|
|
|
Fair enough. I just look at all the twitters and horrible videos and wonder why the hell anybody would possibly want to be on any side other than Gadaffi's opposition. I have been glued to every single twitter Brown Moses posted and I almost wish I could just drop everything and go help. Obviously just almost, because all I have to whine about is Fox News, but still... I mean, there can't honestly be THAT many people benefiting from Gadaffi's rule, right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 12:02
|
|
|
I caught this while looking through some back articles at the Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links quote:Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 12:30
|
|
|
Young Freud posted:
I haven't read the referenced USMA document in a while, but this is mischaracterization of the documents and the supposed relationship between LIFG (which no longer exists and had a large disagreement with AQ) and al-Qaeda. This is a pretty decent explanation of what those documents do show http://selectedwisdom.com/?p=181 posted:Speculation on Libyan foreign fighters to Iraq (as documented in the Sinjar records) is largely misunderstood. I’ve counted a dozen or more media reports, news articles and blog posts citing Libya as the “top supplier of foreign fighters to Iraq” suggesting Libya will thus become an AQ stronghold in the near future. Here are several reasons I think this is misguided: Plus the only reference I can find to Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi is this recent interview, which makes me wonder if he could even be considered a key leader, let alone the rebel leader. Xandu fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Mar 26, 2011 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 13:08
|
|
|
Jaysus posted:Why are so many people on Gaddafi's side? He's been the ruler of the country for as long as most of the population can remember and he has made sure enough people got to live relativaly good from the oil revenue. The coverage from the uprisings in Lbiya and other countries has also been overstating the support of the rebel side and described anyone in support of the sitting regime as mercenaries or paid thugs. They may not be on Twitter but that does not mean the Gadaffi supporters do not exist.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 13:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 17:30 |
|
|
Tripoliquote:BBC A strange and disturbing tale from AP, which reports that a woman with a bloodied thigh and scratches on her face stormed into a Tripoli hotel to tell foreign reporters she had been raped by Gaddafi forces at a checkpoint in the city. The report continues: "A waitress brandished a knife, calling [the woman] a traitor, and government minders shoved back reporters who tried to intervene while the woman was dragged outside screaming." quote:@ChangeInLibya Misrata quote:BBC Reuters are reporting a rebel spokesman as saying there have been further Western air strikes on Saturday on the outskirts of rebel-held Misrata, which has been under siege from Gaddafi artillery. quote:BBC More on that report about air strikes in Misrata: a rebel spokesman called Abdelbasset told Reuters by telephone: "The allied planes are in the sky above Misrata and they have bombed locations of the [Gaddafi] forces in the outskirts. The [Gaddafi artillery] shelling of Misrata has eased. There was heavy shelling earlier." Ajdabiya quote:BBC Ajdabiya residents have claimed they were brutalised by Gaddafi forces. Ibrahim Saleh, 34, told AFP news agency: "The tanks were firing on the houses non-stop. I couldn't move from my house for days. There was no water or fuel or communications, and when people went out even to get fuel they were fired on." Brega quote:@ChangeInLibya Revolutionaries are already liberating Brega as we speak, however I will not tweet exact locations anymore. Pls do the same. quote:@ChangeInLibya Freedom: In Ajdabiya and Brega, citizens living in fear for over 2 weeks are OPENING THEIR HOMES AND WELCOMING REVOLUTIONARIES
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2011 13:36
|
|