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El Duke posted:Where are all of these great tag matches that don't follow this formula? Because a lot of my favorite tag matches, which are some of my favorite matches of all time, follow the typical tag match formula.
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Apr 27, 2011 22:39
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I'm fairly certain that story about Kane being offered the chance to beat the streak and turning it down was just flat-out made up.
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Apr 27, 2011 23:00
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Jerusalem posted:I'm fairly certain that story about Kane being offered the chance to beat the streak and turning it down was just flat-out made up. If it is, I wouldn't be surprised. If it isn't, I wouldn't be surprised.
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Apr 27, 2011 23:11
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Why do folks around here poo poo on Arik Cannon so much? I don't think he is the best wrestler but I find him entertaining, so I was curious why people don't like him.
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Apr 27, 2011 23:17
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SamuraiFoochs posted:Serious question how would you book a tag match differently? Beyond that, exceptions based on specific personalities can work, but as MassRayPer pointed out, that does not really help you understand a way to do fundamentally different matches for others. You could get a lot of mileage out of a tag team with sufficient internal heat (Luger/Sting comes to mind) that the standard formula is not necessary for drama. So, again, is there any other "way that can work universally" to book a tag match? Probably not, as "looks like bad is going to win OH GOOD WON AFTER ALL!" is pretty much a standard storytelling device for seemingly all forms of entertainment. But you can absolutely be creative with the personalities you have to work with--for example, heel Undertaker and Kane (and heel Undertaker and Big Show, I think) had some, dare I say, decent tag matches back in the day, despite being booked by default as immune to "hot face tag destroying both heels" style. Edit: I look forward to being told that Undertaker was never in a tag team as a heel. If this is true, I apologize for my INSOLENCE.
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Apr 27, 2011 23:21
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I think the basic "psychology" structure is like the three-act structure in a lot of stories- it's not the entirety of what happens, and the point is to layer stuff on top while keeping the rhythm. And of course, you don't *have* to have a three-act structure, and not all matches have to be built the same as well- if you have a good reason for going outside the lines that's okay.
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Apr 27, 2011 23:24
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DannoMack posted:How was it taken in Mexico that WWE signed Mistico and DC Jr? Is it a happy thing because their guys got a big break, or a sad thing because Billionaire Vince is picking the bones of lucha clean?
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Apr 27, 2011 23:31
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45ShadesOfDeath posted:Why do folks around here poo poo on Arik Cannon so much? I don't think he is the best wrestler but I find him entertaining, so I was curious why people don't like him. How to make his ring gear:  + 
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Apr 27, 2011 23:33
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Lone Rogue posted:If it is, I wouldn't be surprised. If it isn't, I wouldn't be surprised. Basically this. It might be fake but based on what I know about Kane I can totally see that as having happened.
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Apr 27, 2011 23:57
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I've always heard the Orton thing as that they were considering and then Orton blew his shoulder so they never got to the decision point.
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Apr 28, 2011 00:08
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45ShadesOfDeath posted:Why do folks around here poo poo on Arik Cannon so much? I don't think he is the best wrestler but I find him entertaining, so I was curious why people don't like him. I like him fine as a wrestler, but he has THE WORST gear. Like, garbage bag pants are nothing new, but the dude has a PVC tank top.
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Apr 28, 2011 00:18
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Captain Charisma posted:Lucha rules are the loving WORST. A total heat killer. I'm assuming your experiences with Lucha Rules tag matches are from ROH? Ring of Honor has always been really really REALLY bad at explaining those rules, and that kills the heat of the matches. They say "TAGS AREN'T NECESSARY!" and leave it at that, so the crowd ends up thinking "why doesn't the other babyface just come in the ring to stop this heel domination?". Lucha Rules doesn't mean you can just come in the ring and be the legal man. Your partner has to either tag you in or LEAVE THE RING to make a legal tag. You can still have tons of heat in lucha style tag matches, and you can even do stuff with the babyface in peril trying to leave the ring but getting pulled back in. In conclusion, ROH's bad choice of words confused a lot of people and killed the heat of some matches.
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Apr 28, 2011 00:28
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Beef Jerky Robot posted:I like him fine as a wrestler, but he has THE WORST gear. Like, garbage bag pants are nothing new, but the dude has a PVC tank top. Where did garbage bag pants even come from? Like did a lot of indy guys see Tajiri and decide they wanted to emulate him except without anything that makes Tajiri awesome?
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Apr 28, 2011 01:04
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Has Hulk Hogan ever said anything about Undertaker stealing the big boot/legdrop?
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Apr 28, 2011 01:29
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Suben posted:Where did garbage bag pants even come from? Like did a lot of indy guys see Tajiri and decide they wanted to emulate him except without anything that makes Tajiri awesome? It hides chicken legs mostly. A lot of indy guys took to wearing puffy gear because they thought it made them look bigger.
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Apr 28, 2011 01:29
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Seymour Buttz posted:I'm assuming your experiences with Lucha Rules tag matches are from ROH? Ring of Honor has always been really really REALLY bad at explaining those rules, and that kills the heat of the matches. They say "TAGS AREN'T NECESSARY!" and leave it at that, so the crowd ends up thinking "why doesn't the other babyface just come in the ring to stop this heel domination?". His experience with Lucha Rules are Lucha Libre.
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Apr 28, 2011 01:46
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Skinty McEdger posted:It hides chicken legs mostly. A lot of indy guys took to wearing puffy gear because they thought it made them look bigger.
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Apr 28, 2011 01:53
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Korak posted:This doesn't explain Arik Cannon's obsession with shiny garbage bag ring gear. It's also much cheaper than actual gear and most indy wrestlers are broke.
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Apr 28, 2011 01:57
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Skinty McEdger posted:It hides chicken legs mostly. A lot of indy guys took to wearing puffy gear because they thought it made them look bigger. At least when they put on baggy pants they fit baggy, not regular. There's no baggy pants option when you do your Matt Classic approved 2,000 squats a day  .
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Apr 28, 2011 01:59
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Seymour Buttz posted:I'm assuming your experiences with Lucha Rules tag matches are from ROH? Ring of Honor has always been really really REALLY bad at explaining those rules, and that kills the heat of the matches. They say "TAGS AREN'T NECESSARY!" and leave it at that, so the crowd ends up thinking "why doesn't the other babyface just come in the ring to stop this heel domination?". I am pretty sure ROH fans know the rules because during a match with MCMG that was supposed to have these rules a pretty big portion of the Hammerstein Ballroom started chanting "IT'S A SCRAMBLE" when they were pretending it was just a regular tag match.
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Apr 28, 2011 02:03
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Lucha Libre only shows the superiority of American psychology and pacing. When Americans with any clue of psychology go down to Mexico, even on a huge decline in their career (Jake Roberts, Sean Waltman) their matches get so over. They just do basic stuff and the crowds eat it up. Lucha tags are a fun diversion but they should not be the rule.
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Apr 28, 2011 02:37
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Korak posted:This doesn't explain Arik Cannon's obsession with shiny garbage bag ring gear. His unprecedentedly awful gear is part of his charm to me. He's a fat, mohawked goober in trash bag pants and a trash bag tank. You need a couple weird-looking motherfuckers - an Arik Cannon, a Necro Butcher, a Brodus Clay, etc. Plus, he's a drat good worker.
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Apr 28, 2011 02:43
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So...people don't like him not because of his wrestling but JUST his gear, and that is it...hmm...
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Apr 28, 2011 03:42
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45ShadesOfDeath posted:So...people don't like him not because of his wrestling but JUST his gear, and that is it...hmm... People started booing Jericho because he started wearing trunks instead of tights.
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Apr 28, 2011 04:06
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45ShadesOfDeath posted:So...people don't like him not because of his wrestling but JUST his gear, and that is it...hmm... He's a pretty average wrestler in general. I've never really been impressed with him. He was fine 5 years ago but he strikes me as the same wrestler now, but fatter.
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Apr 28, 2011 04:16
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Lucha tags make sense in a "I am thinking about wrestling as a real sport outside of the world and rules of pro wrestling." So realistically, they're stupid.
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Apr 28, 2011 04:55
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Tags also make it easy for anyone to follow along. They are a signal to even the guy in the nosebleeds that the guy on the outside can go to the inside. There is no reason not to include tags. They work, they're effective, and they're an easy visual cue. Also I don't think I can name one excellent Arik Cannon match. He is Indy As gently caress personified. Necro Butcher can get away without having great matches because he is all spectacle. He's an insane hobo that wrestles. Arik Cannon is a fat dude in a trash bag that does Japanese moves and shouts stupid memes. Nut Bunnies fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Apr 28, 2011 |
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Apr 28, 2011 05:10
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I was fine with Lucha Rules watching this year's King of Trios Night 1, thought they were really interesting and made for some cool spots during Night 2, and came to the conclusion they are mostly stupid and confusing when Bryce on commentary said "WHY DON'T YOU JUST ROLL OUT OF THE RING?" when someone was slowly dragging himself by the ropes to get to his corner for the tag.
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Apr 28, 2011 05:24
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You can't cut off the ring and isolate the partner and wear him down Anderson style with lucha rules.
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Apr 28, 2011 05:37
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The only time I personally feel lucha rules should be in effect is when more than two teams are competing (3 way scramble, Four Corner, etc.). It speeds up the pacing and allows everybody to get a chance in the ring before the match inevitably dissolves into a plancha/suicide dive/tope/whateverfest. On top of that it limits blind tags which I find are some of the hardest to understand acts in matches, especially from heels. "Okay, so this guy's getting the snot kicked out of him and has just been whipped into my corner. How do I capitalize on his vulnerability? I know! I'll tag myself in and face off against the guy who is about to tear his opponents head off!" Don't get me wrong, jumping in after someone rolls out of the ring to escape the psychotic killing machine is pretty dumb too, but it doesn't quite have the same boneheadedness, at least to me.
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Apr 28, 2011 05:55
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How did the anonymous raw GM shenanigans begin? I only restarted watching at TLC.
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Apr 28, 2011 07:49
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The Mutato posted:How did the anonymous raw GM shenanigans begin? I only restarted watching at TLC. Bret Hart was attacked by Nexus so the gimmick was that the next GM would be anonymous for his or her own protection.
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Apr 28, 2011 07:54
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flashy_mcflash posted:Just once I'd like to see a heel getting a hot tag and destroying everyone with lariats and then winning clean. Head Cheese vs. T&A at Wrestlemania 2000. ...Oh wait, that match didn't have any heat. It was also loving terrible.
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Apr 28, 2011 08:06
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45ShadesOfDeath posted:Why do folks around here poo poo on Arik Cannon so much? I don't think he is the best wrestler but I find him entertaining, so I was curious why people don't like him. gently caress Arik Cannon
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Apr 28, 2011 09:28
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So I'm watching the Extreme Rules 2010 DVD, and in the middle of the Beth Phoenix/Michelle McCool "extreme makeover" match, someone in the 4th or 5th row slowly raises a  sign.Has a goon ever stepped up and taken credit for that? Cause I laughed my rear end off, I'll have you know.
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Apr 28, 2011 10:36
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I'm watching a Chikara DVD, and I was wondering how they get away with using random songs for entrance music. Are they just small enough that nobody notices, so they haven't been sued yet? edit: on a side note I was totally bored with the Osirian Portal dance-off but then Bryce Remsburg got involved and everyone sold the hell out of it and I loved it again. More Bryce dancing please, Chikara. long-ass nips Diane fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Apr 28, 2011 |
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Apr 28, 2011 10:58
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weekly font posted:Lucha tags make sense in a "I am thinking about wrestling as a real sport outside of the world and rules of pro wrestling." So realistically, they're stupid. Captain Charisma posted:Tags also make it easy for anyone to follow along. They are a signal to even the guy in the nosebleeds that the guy on the outside can go to the inside. There is no reason not to include tags. They work, they're effective, and they're an easy visual cue. Hirams Bitch posted:You can't cut off the ring and isolate the partner and wear him down Anderson style with lucha rules. YOU ALL DO NOT REALLY UNDERSTAND LUCHA TAG RULES. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION: There are still tags in this system of rules. You still have to tag your partner in for him to be legal. Aside from a physical tag, which is still used, you can ALSO tag your partner in by going to the floor. Those are the rules. They enforce them very lightly in Mexico, so it may appear that you can just come in and do whatever, but you can still isolate one member of a team and tease tags within these rules. You just have to keep the guy in the ring AND away from his corner. The "visual cue" is still a tag. What you people have a problem with is Lucha psychology, which can seem random at times, not the rules. edit: Also, Renaissance Spam, I will now explain blind tags to you in one sentence. If you blind tag yourself in right before your opponent kills the guy you're tagging, he can't pin that guy and win, and he doesn't know you're allowed to come in the ring and get him! Seymour Buttz fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Apr 28, 2011 |
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Apr 28, 2011 12:29
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JohnWilkesGoonth posted:I'm watching a Chikara DVD, and I was wondering how they get away with using random songs for entrance music. Are they just small enough that nobody notices, so they haven't been sued yet? That's the case with most indy wrestling. I don't think the entrance music thing becomes an issue unless they're being broadcast somehow. They did have a deal with Stan Bush to use his music (specifically "The Touch (Sam's Theme)") for KOT. When ROH got on TV (so to speak), a lot of their wrestlers changed their entrance themes to non-licensed music, or commissioned their own music from artists. (See: Colt Cabana, Rhett Titus, Chris Hero)
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Apr 28, 2011 13:16
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The way music copyright works is that you're paying an increased price for how many people will hear the song. So bars have to pay fees for those jukeboxes but its a relatively small fee because they have a relatively small number of customers hearing them. If an indy puts its show on DVD or TV then the price goes up because way more people see it. That's why WWE was willing to pay the prices for the real songs for One Night Stand but not for the DVD release, because the cost was much more expensive for the DVD release than for the live show. And then, yes, of course most of these small companies are probably just flying under the radar and assuming that they're not big enough to ever draw the ire of anyone they may be stealing from.
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Apr 28, 2011 15:05
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On the subject of lucha rules, specifically it meaning that someone can't be cut off in the ring, see KoT09 finals between FIST and Team Uppercut. FIST successfully cuts Danielson off from his team for a good deal of the match.
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Apr 28, 2011 15:42
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