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Pretty much every time I have tried to use facts in an argument with a Tea Party type their either claim the source is biased (even when it is just the IRS website or something) or it just goes through their head and out the other ear. For instance I had a guy tell me that stupid 50% of Americans don't pay taxes talking point to which I asked what about sales, property, payroll, state, vice and all the other taxes that regular people pay. He didn't have a response. A few days later it's the same "What about the 50% that don't pay taxes how is that fair?"  "Honestly the comparison between the Tea Party platform and religion is pretty accurate. It has nothing to do with facts or statistics; it's based on "feelings" and any critique is an insult against the person's beliefs. After trying to argue with people where the eventual response is "Why are you so mean? I don't think we should have class warfare in this country" when you ask why we shouldn't go back to pre-Bush tax levels I'm not sure what can be done to shift the mindset of such people.
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Sep 3, 2011 04:49
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Sarion posted:I too am interested in this. Doubly so because your avatar leads me to believe you may live in the same state as me and would love to hear stories (if you have any). That's a pretty great article. I'll have to think on that and sort of rearrange how I talk to them. It also explains why emotions run national discourse all the time..facts are a turnoff.
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Sep 3, 2011 04:52
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crime fighting hog posted:It's different with other people. Last time someone brought up death panels I went very much out of my way to convince them that it was a load of horseshit. I just don't want to argue with my dad because he just gets madder and madder. I understand that the need to combat lies with truth is very important if we are to progress as a society and all that stuff, but with my dad it's like "Christ, can we just talk about the Huskers instead of how much you hate MSNBC?" I don't even watch tv... Rereading my original post, it comes off as more accusatory than I'd intended. Sorry about that! I don't think you're what's wrong with America, and I can totally understand the fatigue that comes from bashing yourself against an ideological brick wall over and over again. Hastings posted:That's a pretty great article. I'll have to think on that and sort of rearrange how I talk to them. It also explains why emotions run national discourse all the time..facts are a turnoff. I think you interpreted that slightly wrong. It's not that all facts are a turnoff, it's that ideology trumps them. Keeping that in mind what you should do is ensure your arguments have an emotional core that doesn't cause people to become defensive and use facts to back it up. The idea is that you need to not just prove your point but also play to peoples' self esteem.
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Sep 3, 2011 05:08
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Radish posted:For instance I had a guy tell me that stupid 50% of Americans don't pay taxes talking point. "Everyone pays taxes. I'm sorry you don't understand how taxes work because you only watch Fox News."
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Sep 3, 2011 06:12
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Do people who do their taxes every year but usually get money back fall into that group? I'm a little confused. I definitely do not make a lot of money. I just work a part-time job while I'm in school, but I do file taxes each year. Am I one of the 50% or not?
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Sep 3, 2011 06:30
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the posted:Do people who do their taxes every year but usually get money back fall into that group? I'm a little confused. I definitely do not make a lot of money. I just work a part-time job while I'm in school, but I do file taxes each year. Am I one of the 50% or not? Yep. How's life on the government teat, cocksucker?
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Sep 3, 2011 06:35
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ts12 posted:What do you do for a living that requires that? Stuff. 
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Sep 3, 2011 06:37
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JerkyBunion posted:I go to tea party meetings for a living so take it from me: "Barack Obama is a socialist!" "I am a socialist, and don't insult me by comparing me to Barack Obama!" On that note, has anyone gotten a reaction to something like "Obama implemented the Republican healthcare plan, lowered taxes on the wealthy, is still doing all the Bush war stuff, and is letting regulatory agencies go unstaffed. Unlike a Republican, he gets Democrats to go along with this. Why don't you like him?"
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Sep 3, 2011 06:45
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the poo poo out of them.
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Dr Christmas posted:"Barack Obama is a socialist!" THIS IS HOW I FEEL. IRL.
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Sep 3, 2011 06:45
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the posted:Do people who do their taxes every year but usually get money back fall into that group? I'm a little confused. I definitely do not make a lot of money. I just work a part-time job while I'm in school, but I do file taxes each year. Am I one of the 50% or not? If you get 100% of your federal taxes back, then you're one of those evil non-taxpayers, yes.
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Sep 3, 2011 06:57
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OrangeKing posted:If you get 100% of your federal taxes back, then you're one of those evil non-taxpayers, yes.
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Sep 3, 2011 06:58
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Dr Christmas posted:On that note, has anyone gotten a reaction to something like "Obama implemented the Republican healthcare plan, lowered taxes on the wealthy, is still doing all the Bush war stuff, and is letting regulatory agencies go unstaffed. Unlike a Republican, he gets Democrats to go along with this. Why don't you like him?"
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Sep 3, 2011 18:34
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dur posted:"I knew you were a nutball when it comes to politics but i never thought I would ever hear anyone say Obama is catering to the republicans through his policies. If you think he is ineffective now just wait until Nov. when conservatives, real ones not the RINOs like Olympia Snowe and Arlen Specter, take over again. Your limp dick president is going to really be neutered. Tell him thanks for awakening a sleeping giant though. Real change is coming and I can't wait to see your little fits on facebook about it."
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Sep 3, 2011 19:10
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Radish posted:For instance I had a guy tell me that stupid 50% of Americans don't pay taxes talking point to which I asked what about sales, property, payroll, state, vice and all the other taxes that regular people pay. He didn't have a response. A few days later it's the same "What about the 50% that don't pay taxes how is that fair?" This is basically an illustration of the awesome power of propaganda. Since this guy has probably heard this 50% don't pay taxes talking point repeated about 90,000 times in the last 2 months on his Favorite News Channel, from politicians like Rick Perry, "editorial content" hosts like Hannity and O'Reilly, from the "news" anchors there, and on the radio from Rush Limbaugh about another 120,000 times, it comes to replace an actual thought in his head, it's something that comes easily and readily to the lips as an automatic response. if (tax debate) then ("50% of Americans don't pay taxes"). Basically propaganda, repeated over and over again, is very potent. I would like to reemphasize that propaganda is very powerful. There is power in propaganda. Repeating propaganda over and over again is very effective.
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Sep 3, 2011 19:28
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Zwabu posted:This is basically an illustration of the awesome power of propaganda. Since this guy has probably heard this 50% don't pay taxes talking point repeated about 90,000 times in the last 2 months on his Favorite News Channel, from politicians like Rick Perry, "editorial content" hosts like Hannity and O'Reilly, from the "news" anchors there, and on the radio from Rush Limbaugh about another 120,000 times, it comes to replace an actual thought in his head, it's something that comes easily and readily to the lips as an automatic response. The real funny part is that it wouldn't matter even if they didn't pay any taxes whatsoever. You know why? You know the money that the other 50% make? That money is incumbent on the work some of those 50% do (cleaning, sweeping, harvesting, packing, shipping, shelving, selling, driving, etc), and on the low wages guaranteed by the others` unemployment. The economy isn't individual, it's social. Those self-congratulatory blowhards would starve within days without those terrible 50%, not to mention make any money or get those expensive suits they prance around with while railing against the lucky duckies. In that sense, even progressives are buying into propaganda that is not rooted in reality. As if a person's worth has to do with individual taxes they pay with "their" money. It's a red herring.
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Sep 3, 2011 19:44
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dur posted:"I knew you were a nutball when it comes to politics but i never thought I would ever hear anyone say Obama is catering to the republicans through his policies. If you think he is ineffective now just wait until Nov. when conservatives, real ones not the RINOs like Olympia Snowe and Arlen Specter, take over again. Your limp dick president is going to really be neutered. Tell him thanks for awakening a sleeping giant though. Real change is coming and I can't wait to see your little fits on facebook about it." Yeesh. Sorry I asked 
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Sep 3, 2011 20:40
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dur posted:"I knew you were a nutball when it comes to politics but i never thought I would ever hear anyone say Obama is catering to the republicans through his policies. If you think he is ineffective now just wait until Nov. when conservatives, real ones not the RINOs like Olympia Snowe and Arlen Specter, take over again. Your limp dick president is going to really be neutered. Tell him thanks for awakening a sleeping giant though. Real change is coming and I can't wait to see your little fits on facebook about it." Man, that is depressing.
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Sep 3, 2011 22:41
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dur posted:"I knew you were a nutball when it comes to politics but i never thought I would ever hear anyone say Obama is catering to the republicans through his policies. If you think he is ineffective now just wait until Nov. when conservatives, real ones not the RINOs like Olympia Snowe and Arlen Specter, take over again. Your limp dick president is going to really be neutered. Tell him thanks for awakening a sleeping giant though. Real change is coming and I can't wait to see your little fits on facebook about it." So, real change is a continuation of exactly what conservatives and Republicans have advocated (and largely got) over the past 30 years?  
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Sep 3, 2011 22:59
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dur posted:"I knew you were a nutball when it comes to politics but i never thought I would ever hear anyone say Obama is catering to the republicans through his policies. If you think he is ineffective now just wait until Nov. when conservatives, real ones not the RINOs like Olympia Snowe and Arlen Specter, take over again. Your limp dick president is going to really be neutered. Tell him thanks for awakening a sleeping giant though. Real change is coming and I can't wait to see your little fits on facebook about it." I would reply with: "This is the temple of intelligence, and I am its high priest. You are profaning its sacred domain. You will win, because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. In order to convince it is necessary to persuade, and to persuade you will need something that you lack: reason and right in the struggle. I see it is useless to ask you to think of America. I have spoken."
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Sep 3, 2011 23:20
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ThePeteEffect posted:So, real change is a continuation of exactly what conservatives and Republicans have advocated (and largely got) over the past 30 years?
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Sep 4, 2011 02:06
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dur posted:"I knew you were a nutball when it comes to politics but i never thought I would ever hear anyone say Obama is catering to the republicans through his policies. If you think he is ineffective now just wait until Nov. when conservatives, real ones not the RINOs like Olympia Snowe and Arlen Specter, take over again. Your limp dick president is going to really be neutered. Tell him thanks for awakening a sleeping giant though. Real change is coming and I can't wait to see your little fits on facebook about it." Ahhh yes, the old "Obama is a muslim-atheist-socialist who will destroy America / Obama is a completely ineffectual President incapable of doing anything" argument. You know the propaganda is strong when they can't even recognize the things they're asking for. It's like when people complain about how much Obama has increased taxes, even though they're paying less in (federal) taxes now than they did even under Bush. And really, Arlen Specter? He switched to being a Democrat and he's not even in Congress anymore. Come on, at least keep up. Absurd Alhazred posted:The real funny part is that it wouldn't matter even if they didn't pay any taxes whatsoever. You know why? You know the money that the other 50% make? That money is incumbent on the work some of those 50% do (cleaning, sweeping, harvesting, packing, shipping, shelving, selling, driving, etc), and on the low wages guaranteed by the others` unemployment. The economy isn't individual, it's social. Those self-congratulatory blowhards would starve within days without those terrible 50%, not to mention make any money or get those expensive suits they prance around with while railing against the lucky duckies. This is pretty much the crux of the problem. They don't see us as being interconnected and dependent upon one another. As far as they're concerned the wealthy got that way through hard work and BOOTSTRAPS and they would do even better without the damned government building bridges and giving poor people food and without those ignorant poors wasting their money on "wages". Besides, the bottom 50% hold about 1-2% of the total wealth in the country, the bottom 40% only hold 0.3%. How much taxes do they really expect to get out of these people? Sarion fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Sep 4, 2011 |
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Sep 4, 2011 02:39
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Ask him how Obama's policies are any different from Bush's at this point. Point out immediately that Obama personally neutered the public option in the health care bill.
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Sep 4, 2011 04:37
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JT Jag posted:Ask him how Obama's policies are any different from Bush's at this point. Point out immediately that Obama personally neutered the public option in the health care bill. According to my dad the tea partier, "You're right. Bush was a democrat too."
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Sep 4, 2011 04:45
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JerkyBunion posted:According to my dad the tea partier, "You're right. Bush was a democrat too." Wow, that's a pretty exceptional viewpoint. Although from a Tea party perspective, it makes sense. Big Government Republicans pretty much ARE indistinguishable from Democrats except for their association with the disturbingly religious right and the social issues they're stuck with because of that.
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Sep 4, 2011 04:57
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JerkyBunion posted:According to my dad the tea partier, "You're right. Bush was a democrat too." Well, poo poo. OK, new tactic. How's Obama different from Reagan, given that the latter raised taxes, increased the deficit, and gave amnesty to illegal immigrants? Dr Christmas fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Sep 4, 2011 |
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Sep 4, 2011 08:26
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Dr Christmas posted:Well, poo poo. Reagan tried not to do any of those things, but the DEMONRATS in control of Congress forced him to. 
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Sep 4, 2011 08:47
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JT Jag posted:Ask him how Obama's policies are any different from Bush's at this point. Point out immediately that Obama personally neutered the public option in the health care bill. How exactly did Obama personally neuter the Public Option? Lieberman killed the public option. There was absolutely no way to pass PPACA without Lieberman's vote and he said he would stand with the Republicans so long as there was a Public Option. They could have fought for the Public Option, but then three weeks later they would have lost the Mass. seat to Scott Brown and then absolutely nothing would have been passed. I wish the Public Option would have survived, but I would rather have the Exchanges, Subsidies, and regulations than nothing at all.
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Sep 4, 2011 13:48
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In the negotiations with the PHARMA, etc. reps before they began molding the bill, he promised that there would be no public option in order for them to not "Harry and Louise" PPACA.
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Sep 4, 2011 16:12
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Sarion posted:
The Daily Show actually did a good bit on this. They showed Fox News clips of them saying that they would "only" collect 700 billion if they raised taxes, closed loopholes on the rich. Their solution was to tax the bottom 50%. Jon did some math, if you taxed the bottom 50% at 50% you would get... 700 billion dollars.
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Sep 4, 2011 16:21
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Have you seen my apex seals? I seem to have lost them.
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And that wasn't 50% of their income, that was 50% of their total wealth.
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Sep 4, 2011 17:20
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Aeka 2.0 posted:The Daily Show actually did a good bit on this. They showed Fox News clips of them saying that they would "only" collect 700 billion if they raised taxes, closed loopholes on the rich. Their solution was to tax the bottom 50%. Jon did some math, if you taxed the bottom 50% at 50% you would get... 700 billion dollars. Here's the segment in question, which covers pretty much every angle of the Republicans' and Fox's hypocrisy on the subject. It's in two parts because it took up all the time before the first break. Part 1 Part 2 Edit: Typo Dr Christmas fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Sep 4, 2011 |
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Sep 4, 2011 17:37
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Slaan posted:In the negotiations with the PHARMA, etc. reps before they began molding the bill, he promised that there would be no public option in order for them to not "Harry and Louise" PPACA. The only thing I could really find on this were blog posts, which I tend to be very suspicious of, even if I agree with them. Though it would explain why he didn't really push hard for it. That being said, I don't really think it ever stood a chance given the make up of the Senate. But at least there's framework there to add one in the future, I just don't see it happening until there a significant left wing shift in Congress. Not just Democrats controlling the House and Senate, but an actual shift in views. A bunch of conservative Democrats don't really help. Dr Christmas posted:Here's the segment in question, which covers pretty much every angle of the Republicans' and Fox's hypocrisy on the subject. It's in two parts because it took up all the time before the first break. That was fantastic, I must have missed that one when it aired originally. Did one of the conservatives actually compare welfare recipients to racoons?
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Sep 5, 2011 02:47
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Sarion posted:The only thing I could really find on this were blog posts, which I tend to be very suspicious of, even if I agree with them. Though it would explain why he didn't really push hard for it. That being said, I don't really think it ever stood a chance given the make up of the Senate. But at least there's framework there to add one in the future, I just don't see it happening until there a significant left wing shift in Congress. Not just Democrats controlling the House and Senate, but an actual shift in views. A bunch of conservative Democrats don't really help. Here you go: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/obamasdeal/ quote:That was fantastic, I must have missed that one when it aired originally. Did one of the conservatives actually compare welfare recipients to racoons? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7DyDrmviTs
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Sep 5, 2011 02:52
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Sarion posted:That was fantastic, I must have missed that one when it aired originally. Did one of the conservatives actually compare welfare recipients to racoons?
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Sep 5, 2011 04:49
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JerkyBunion posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7DyDrmviTs It's always cute when people think you can get welfare and not even try to work after 1996.
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Sep 5, 2011 06:18
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With this thread and the other thread about debating politely I really don't see why we should bother to say anything to them at all if they're not going to listen to reason or at least give arguments that are not obviously bullshit or faulty. Seems like they're taking our kindness as weakness and it really pisses me off sometimes that they don't seem to be arguing in good faith. But then again I guess the other side would say the same thing, huh? 
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Sep 5, 2011 19:49
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Goatman Sacks posted:It's always cute when people think you can get welfare and not even try to work after 1996. The thing is, a single mother of 2 working a full-time job at minimum wage would make so little money that she and her kids would qualify for Food Stamps, and likely Medicaid as well (though it would depend on the state). The idea that the only people on any type of welfare are lazy welfare queens is completely disconnected from reality. Seven Force posted:With this thread and the other thread about debating politely I really don't see why we should bother to say anything to them at all if they're not going to listen to reason or at least give arguments that are not obviously bullshit or faulty. Seems like they're taking our kindness as weakness and it really pisses me off sometimes that they don't seem to be arguing in good faith. But then again I guess the other side would say the same thing, huh? Yeah, part of the problem is that there has become a chasm between facts. When each side can't even agree on what the facts are, the conversation becomes pointless. Obviously both sides always feel like the facts are on their side, but in my experience their facts tend to take the form of either anecdotes or misleading simple statistics (like "50% of americans pay no taxes"). Whereas most liberals I know would respond with some like, "that's only true if you don't count these taxes..., and the lower 50% of the country own almost none of the country's wealth, etc". That or things like "lowering taxes raises tax revenue"; which are provably false.
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Sep 5, 2011 21:19
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Dr Christmas posted:Here's the segment in question, which covers pretty much every angle of the Republicans' and Fox's hypocrisy on the subject. It's in two parts because it took up all the time before the first break. 
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Sep 6, 2011 08:04
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Ashcans posted:As someone who immigrated to the US, the pledge of allegiance is really weird and creepy. This also applies to the fever-pitch that American patriotism can reach and the whole FLAGSFLAGSFLAGS thing. This is the only place I've ever been (or heard of) where people put up flagpoles in their yard because they love the flag so loving much. On another website I saw a conservative refer to having sworn an oath to defend the flag. I assume this was some military enlistment oath. When I asked "what oath was that?" I got no response. (In the US military, you swear an oath to defend THE CONSTITUTION)
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Sep 6, 2011 08:56
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It feels to me like anti-sex education and anti-speech stances are the things that differentiate regressives from true conservatives. The fact that it is a conservative stance to be anti-freedom-of-speech in the case of flag burning is like one of the central thing that made me realize that even if my dumb high school rear end was a libertarian that the Republican party was not for me, and as well the fact that the party who claimed to be against abortion was against access to sex education and birth control. You don't get more regressive than being against the freedom of speech of flag burning.
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Sep 6, 2011 09:06
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