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For an air traffic controller, having 13 C-17s on final means bad luck. e: You put WHAT on your plane? Harlequin RV-9:  I like it!
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Oct 23, 2011 11:39
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Ola posted:For an air traffic controller, having 13 C-17s on final means bad luck. "poo poo. Figure it out yourselves guys, I'm going for a smoke"
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Oct 23, 2011 11:56
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Cygni posted:The F-35C will be the next Blue Angel, although the Super Hornet may be used for the two-seat rides. But thats well over a decade away. You know, one of the Blue Angels is always a Marine pilot. And the Marine F-35 is STOVL. That should be interesting.
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Oct 23, 2011 12:27
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Captain Postal posted:"poo poo. Figure it out yourselves guys, I'm going for a smoke" "Why is one inverted?" "Because he can." "....gently caress this."
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Oct 23, 2011 13:03
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ApathyGifted posted:You know, one of the Blue Angels is always a Marine pilot. I can't imagine they'd be willing to unass that kind of money for the blues. I expect they'll end up flying trainers. I am old enough to remember the A-4 years...they weren't too bad.
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Oct 23, 2011 18:09
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Although the Blues with F-35s and the Thunderbirds with F-22s would be pretty awesome.
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Oct 23, 2011 18:52
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ApathyGifted posted:You know, one of the Blue Angels is always a Marine pilot. Marines are also is also buying F-35C's. I was told pretty flatly that they will fly the (regular) bugs until the F-35C's are ready to rotate out. And the F-35 is a perfect plane for it, really.
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Oct 23, 2011 18:55
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Cygni posted:The F-35C will be the next Blue Angel, although the Super Hornet may be used for the two-seat rides. But thats well over a decade away. What are you basing any of this on? The Navy tends to move its lower-tier fighters into the Blues, which will not be the F-35 for another 40 years. I'll be surprised if we see SHornets in the next 10 years. I wouldn't be surprised if the AF gives the Thunderbirds 35s though...probably not until 2020 or so.
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Oct 23, 2011 22:33
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Slo-Tek posted:I can't imagine they'd be willing to unass that kind of money for the blues. Yup. There's no way they'll fly F-35s just for a demo, not with the budget being what it is and the program being in such flux. Blues will probably fly T-45s, and the T-birds will probably fly the T-38 replacement that in theory should be in place by the time the last F-16s are retired. If not, I guess they'll fly T-38s...again. Speaking of the A-4 years...
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Oct 23, 2011 22:35
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iyaayas01 posted:Speaking of the A-4 years... I had a book about the history of the Blue Angels when I was much younger and I recall a passage about an incident that happened during the early A-4 years that stuck with me: As I recall, the pilot was practicing full stick deflection vertical rolls. He ended up getting the airplane rolling so fast the fuel in the wings popped a few of the outer wing rivets. After that incident they limited the rolls to 3/4 stick deflection max. They say the A-4 had a maximum roll rate of about 720 degrees per second, or two rolls every second.
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Oct 24, 2011 00:50
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late model isreali (I think..) a4's would be a boon to the airshow circuit. 35% more power, and an airplane that's a hotrod. And wings that are rated for 15,000 hours at combat load... yes, 720 degrees a second. I think to do better than that you're looking at something that's doing the redbull air races. Oddly enough, I just watched a documentary on the A4 last night. They're exactly the sort of airplane we need again. To bad douglas is a goner.
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Oct 24, 2011 05:39
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Godholio posted:What are you basing any of this on? Was told by some brass who are in my work building from time to time. Hey, feel free to not believe me, but I was told flatly that the F-35C will replace the standard Hornet. But like I said, it wont be for at least 15+ years. Basically, it will take the last Hornets and the first F-35's getting rotated. Cygni fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 05:57
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Cygni posted:Was told by some brass who are in my work building from time to time. Hey, feel free to not believe me, but I was told flatly that the F-35C will replace the standard Hornet. But like I said, it wont be for at least 15+ years. Basically, it will take the last Hornets and the first F-35's getting rotated. It really shows how much longer fighter development takes in the post cold war era. The Blues flew the A-4 for 13 years and at the time that was the longest they had ever operated one aircraft. Now they're at 25 years in the Hornets and with no suitable replacement for the next 10-15 years. They've only in the past few years starting getting a few C model Hornets.
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Oct 24, 2011 07:56
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The A4 is such a cool loving airplane, I expect every pilot flying one of those things to be sporting a big poo poo-eating grin.
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Oct 24, 2011 13:01
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iyaayas01 posted:Yup. There's no way they'll fly F-35s just for a demo, not with the budget being what it is and the program being in such flux. Blues will probably fly T-45s, and the T-birds will probably fly the T-38 replacement that in theory should be in place by the time the last F-16s are retired. If not, I guess they'll fly T-38s...again. I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears that keyboard intro when they see an A-4.
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Oct 24, 2011 15:06
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Previa_fun posted:It really shows how much longer fighter development takes in the post cold war era. The Blues flew the A-4 for 13 years and at the time that was the longest they had ever operated one aircraft. Now they're at 25 years in the Hornets and with no suitable replacement for the next 10-15 years. They've only in the past few years starting getting a few C model Hornets. The navy is much more worried about replacing fleet Hornets than what the Blue Angels are going to fly next anyway.
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Oct 24, 2011 15:47
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Nerobro posted:To bad douglas is a goner. Douglas had so many amazing aircraft. The A-4, Dauntless, DC-3, DC-8, etc. Too bad the DC-10 and MD-11 didn't follow the tradition. Maybe they'd still be around.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:23
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According to the documentary, the key to Douglas was the fact they'd make risky airplanes. And they noted that the risks they took with the airliner industry is what caused their downfall.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:01
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Nerobro posted:According to the documentary, the key to Douglas was the fact they'd make risky airplanes. And they noted that the risks they took with the airliner industry is what caused their downfall. Anybody made a decent documentary on McDonnell? They seem to have had a goddamn fascinating trajectory. Didn't exist for most of World War Two, and started jamming out really modern, really aggressive, really cool aircraft for the post war. Going from Zero to McAir in like 5 years. Then bought out Douglas. Then got chopped up for scrap by Boeing. I'm pretty sure I've seen the Silent Eagle testbed flying over my house lately with the new tail on it. But I havn't seen anything on the web to support that it is even still in St. Louis.
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Oct 24, 2011 22:31
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Slo-Tek posted:Anybody made a decent documentary on McDonnell?  (picked it up at a dollar store or something a year ago and forgot about it). It was made by the company itself in celebration of their 25th birthday. It's a 30-minute look at their history up to the Mercury program. Despite the title, Douglas is not mentioned. Thing I learned from it; at the christening ceremony for the Phantom II, the bottle would not break, despite having a metal plate with an edge sticking up strapped to the radome to smack the bottle on. The lady (SecNav's wife) took a couple whacks at it, then a couple with one of the guys assisting, and then the guys tried, and eventually they just popped the cork and poured the bubbly on the jet. Chillbro Baggins fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Oct 25, 2011 |
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Oct 25, 2011 01:20
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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MA-Horus posted:The A4 is such a cool loving airplane, I expect every pilot flying one of those things to be sporting a big poo poo-eating grin. New Zealand still has a few A-4s we're trying to get rid of that were stored in (supposedly) flyable condition back when they were retired. Perhaps they can use them.   (the white stuff is a latex coating)
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Oct 25, 2011 01:29
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Delivery McGee posted:Thing I learned from it; at the christening ceremony for the Phantom II, the bottle would not break, despite having a metal plate with an edge sticking up strapped to the radome to smack the bottle on. The lady (SecNav's wife) took a couple whacks at it, then a couple with one of the guys assisting, and then the guys tried, and eventually they just popped the cork and poured the bubbly on the jet. And that's just how awesome the Phantom is. dissss posted:New Zealand still has a few A-4s we're trying to get rid of that were stored in (supposedly) flyable condition back when they were retired. Perhaps they can use them. Those were the ones that a U.S. based "red air" company was trying to buy but the State Department kept blocking the sale, right? Did that ever go through? That whole thing seemed pretty idiotic to me seeing as how ATAC has been operating Kfirs, Hawker Hunters, Saab Drakens, and yes, A-4s, for years over the U.S. and other allied countries flying red air in exercises and doing all sorts of R&D. Speaking of the RNZAF and their A-4s... And speaking of RNZAF fighter pilots... If you want more pictures of RNZAF A-4s, this website has a lot of cool ones. iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Oct 25, 2011 |
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Oct 25, 2011 02:25
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Pretty sure Brazil still flies their A-4s off their carrier(s). Pretty old frames to still be doing catapult ops, but pretty rad.
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Oct 25, 2011 03:04
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The sale never went through, apparently approval was granted at a later stage but the buyer couldn't come up with the money before the approval ran out. The government has now given up on selling them as a going concern - I guess they're in much poorer condition under that latex than the previous government was letting on (they were convinced they were still worth something). As a New Zealander the whole affair just makes me sad, they should have at least been realistic about the sale value of the planes when they were decided to stop using them.
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Oct 25, 2011 03:14
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Epic Fail Guy posted:Too bad the DC-10 and MD-11 didn't follow the tradition. Maybe they'd still be around. Aren't a bunch of MD-11's still being flown by Fedex, and other cargo carriers? I know that Fedex fly's at least 2 widebody tri-jets into Phoenix every single day, and I thought those were MD-11's, but I'm not an airplane expert.
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Oct 25, 2011 03:55
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The Locator posted:Aren't a bunch of MD-11's still being flown by Fedex, and other cargo carriers? I know that Fedex fly's at least 2 widebody tri-jets into Phoenix every single day, and I thought those were MD-11's, but I'm not an airplane expert. Both FedEx and UPS still operate a gang of MD-11s for cargo duties. Lufthansa still has them in mainline service. They don't so much land as heave themselves onto the tarmac in the flare, and bounce or flip over onto their backs with stunning regularity.
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Oct 25, 2011 04:03
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I watch a FedEx MD-11 take off every morning, and it never gets less scary.
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Oct 25, 2011 04:45
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Cygni posted:Pretty sure Brazil still flies their A-4s off their carrier(s). Pretty old frames to still be doing catapult ops, but pretty rad. I knew one of these guys pretty well. Odd feeling to go home a fly an aircraft we no longer even trained in. Octoduck fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Oct 25, 2011 |
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Oct 25, 2011 05:38
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Hmmm. How much does NZ want for an A-4?
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Oct 25, 2011 09:38
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Epic Fail Guy posted:Douglas had so many amazing aircraft. The A-4, Dauntless, DC-3, DC-8, etc. The MD-11 is a dog, with a cruise fuel burn that was too high when it was new, and too many patches and corners cut trying to bring the performance up to par. The wing twist/aileron droop, the no.2 engine intake, the shrunk horizontal stabilizers/LSAS... It was never a big seller to begin with, and most of the airlines that did buy it to fly passengers were not really happy with its performance. The 777 was the final nail in its coffin. I have been told some of the reasons KLM keeps on stubbornly flying them on the mainline is because they got a killer deal on them and are cheap for them to fly due to the low cost of ownership, and the takeoff performance makes it really suitable for KLM's many Caribbean and South-American destinations. The capability for lifting bigger loads off of hot-and-high fields and relatively austere, short runways trumps its fuel burn at altitude. For example, despite all the recent developments on the 777, the MD-11 is still king in Quito: Due to its situation at high altitude in a valley in the Andes, a 777 or 747 would be too performance-limited in case of an engine failure. The 777 because you simply lose 50% of your thrust, and the 747 because it's relatively low thurst-to-weight ratio puts it closer to the line in terms of minimum climb gradients, simply due to it having four engines (no ETOPS requirement, so no big thrust surplus). This is also the reason the MD-11 was never really that good at carrying passengers, but is still very popular as a cargo plane. It's a big shame though... the MD-11 had great potential and was really out there in terms of on-board-systems automation, but it never got the better of its basic economic shortfalls. I had the opportunity to fly a couple of hours on an MD-11 sim and have access to a military DC-10 sim these days, and I have to say it's one of my favourites.
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Oct 25, 2011 14:47
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Nerobro posted:Oddly enough, I just watched a documentary on the A4 last night. They're exactly the sort of airplane we need again. To bad douglas is a goner. Buy back some ex-RSAF Super Skyhawks! We give you best price!
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Oct 25, 2011 15:27
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Not meeting range targets at launch really put the MD-11 behind the eight ball. I believe Singapore or some other Asian airline bailed on a bunch of orders due to that.
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Oct 25, 2011 20:54
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The MD-11's biggest problem was that they couldn't meet the discounts that Boeing and Airbus were giving. In the end, Boeing saw the MD-11 as a big enough threat, even in freighters, to kill it once they merged. That's despite the fact that UPS and FedEx would probably still be placing orders for them today, and they had enough orders coming in to keep the line open pretty much indefinitely.
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Oct 25, 2011 21:07
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Advent Horizon posted:I've started booking our trip to the 2012 air races (assuming they happen) If you're a cheap bastard, and don't plan on driving anything too fancy, you could always get a room at the Sands. They're stupidly-cheap (like sub-$30/night w/ 2 queens), and a bit closer to the races, but a trip down the main drag usually isn't too bad. Not sure what Peppermill will be offering, so check around.
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Oct 25, 2011 22:11
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Cygni posted:The MD-11's biggest problem was that they couldn't meet the discounts that Boeing and Airbus were giving. I'm not sold on that, what's the "threat" to Boeing when they own the MD-11 outright? Slightly lower sales of the 777/767 freighter variants in return for offset by MD-11 sales?
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Oct 25, 2011 22:18
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I'm not sold on that, what's the "threat" to Boeing when they own the MD-11 outright? Slightly lower sales of the 777/767 freighter variants in return for offset by MD-11 sales? That was the idea. Boeing stopped taking orders after the merger, and delivered the last planes off the line in 2001. It's not all that diabolical, if you've got two products coming off the line that overlap and one is vastly more profitable (big backlog and buying in bulk) than the other (low production), it's not a tough choice.
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Oct 25, 2011 22:28
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Cygni posted:That was the idea. Boeing stopped taking orders after the merger, and delivered the last planes off the line in 2001. It's not all that diabolical, if you've got two products coming off the line that overlap and one is vastly more profitable (big backlog and buying in bulk) than the other (low production), it's not a tough choice. Well right, it was definitely non-economical for Boeing to produce both, I just wouldn't quantify that as a "threat" or whatever.
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Oct 25, 2011 22:33
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I'm not sold on that, what's the "threat" to Boeing when they own the MD-11 outright? Slightly lower sales of the 777/767 freighter variants in return for offset by MD-11 sales? Not so much a 'threat' as it would be less profit. No parts/training would be the same, a different assembly line to keep open, etc. The 777 actually is a better freighter since it can make it from China to the Lower 48 without a stopover in Anchorage. Two less cycles per trip is also an important consideration. Viggen posted:If you're a cheap bastard, and don't plan on driving anything too fancy, you could always get a room at the Sands. They're stupidly-cheap (like sub-$30/night w/ 2 queens), and a bit closer to the races, but a trip down the main drag usually isn't too bad. Not sure what Peppermill will be offering, so check around. I'm not an insanely cheap bastard, but I do like a good deal. The plan is to take the shuttle, since that will be cheaper and easier than a rental car. We want a place that will have both an airport shuttle and the races shuttle stops at. No Circus-Circus, please. We'd also much prefer a single king, since I'm apparently in the minority and actually sleep with my wife...
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Oct 25, 2011 22:34
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Well right, it was definitely non-economical for Boeing to produce both, I just wouldn't quantify that as a "threat" or whatever. Well, I was just saying that they killed it while it still had a profitable future and orders to come, as opposed to just dying on the vine because nobody wanted them.
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Oct 25, 2011 22:38
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Epic Fail Guy posted:Both FedEx and UPS still operate a gang of MD-11s for cargo duties. Lufthansa still has them in mainline service. Lufthansa only has them in cargo ops too, I think you are thinking of KLM that still use them in pax service. We were lucky enough that YYC got up-guaged to the MD-11 this summer, loved seeing a trijet coming in:  KLM MD-11 PH-KCE by BigtimeAa, on Flickr  Annie Romein by BigtimeAa, on Flickr
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Oct 26, 2011 00:23
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