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schadenfraud posted:Remember the Yemenis have asked NATO to stay away This is because they keep getting murdered by their drone strikes, its pretty reasonable
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Oct 24, 2011 14:22
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This is some amazing footage of what happened just after Gaddafi died: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lw2tRvTmVM&feature=player_embedded
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Oct 24, 2011 14:32
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Brown Moses posted:I see he's changed his story to being an aid worker, rather than a photojournalist. I left a comment on the page, couldn't transcribe it at all.
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Oct 24, 2011 14:36
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d3c0y2 posted:Didnt he end up boxing someone from SA, I know he was outright crazy but its mental that a crazy person such as him was able to hide it to the extent he could get A. medical training B. Guns and equipment. He was told to box an admin as part of his mod challenge, the plans did not work out.
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Oct 24, 2011 14:40
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Isn't Ali Tarhouni the guy who dropped teaching his econ class to go serve the revolution? And then later infiltrated Miserata during the fighting with a sack of cash to keep things going? Sounded like a really smart guy from the first article, and balls of steel for the second. (and major credibility for Miserata, too, which will help with the whole Bengazi / Miserata split.) I thought he'd been killed.
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Oct 24, 2011 14:53
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Bulky Brute posted:This is nonsense. Trots aren't "effectively pro-Gadaffi", they are anti-imperialists, and as such they understand that this supposed revolution is in fact the imperialist subjugation of a former colony. They're not defending Gadaffi, they're explaining the political significance of these events.Personally, I believe this article adequately explains that perspective. The above article is absolutely ludicrous. "The west has done bad things in the recent past. Also Iran, Al-Qaeda and oil, somehow. Ergo the intervention = evil." Not a loving word about the four decades of oppression, the native Libyan uprising or the Libyan and Arab requests for an intervention. Not a loving word about shooting protesters with AA guns. Not a loving word about a revolution toppling a dictator. NATO may be assholes, but you know what? gently caress trotskyists. gently caress them hard. E: Seriously, the focus of that article is entirely on the west's previous wrongdoings, with some abstract fearmongering thrown in. It doesn't even acknowledge the Libyans fighting and dying on the ground, as if they didn't exist or matter in any way. This is some disgusting Red Man's Burden poo poo. Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 14:59
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Warcabbit posted:Isn't Ali Tarhouni the guy who dropped teaching his econ class to go serve the revolution? And then later infiltrated Miserata during the fighting with a sack of cash to keep things going? Yes, but I'm not sure how much infiltration was required to get into Misrata or on the contents of his luggage. He definitely did head there quite early compared to other members of the NTC though. You know BM it's been pretty amazing watching the steady rise of Ali Tarhouni through this whole thing. Should be interesting to see where he goes next with this, hope he doesn't get assassinated.
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Oct 24, 2011 15:20
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Video of Ghaddafi getting sodomized http://video.godlikeproductions.com/video/Video_shows_Muammar_Gaddafi_being_sodomized?id=7187e8efe75f168f9b9
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Oct 24, 2011 15:44
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Ice 9ine posted:Video of Ghaddafi getting sodomized I can't click this at work, but uh.... WHAT.
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Oct 24, 2011 15:47
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Just goes to show, 'he who lives by the sod dies by the sod."
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Oct 24, 2011 15:49
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Ice 9ine posted:Video of Ghaddafi getting sodomized
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Oct 24, 2011 15:52
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QPZIL posted:I can't click this at work, but uh.... WHAT. It is what you think it is. But it is safe for work. edit: Looks like its a handle of some sort being put in his pooper Ice 9ine fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 15:52
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Bulky Brute posted:This is nonsense. Trots aren't "effectively pro-Gadaffi", they are anti-imperialists, and as such they understand that this supposed revolution is in fact the imperialist subjugation of a former colony. They're not defending Gadaffi, they're explaining the political significance of these events.Personally, I believe this article adequately explains that perspective. It's interesting to see people become so invested in an ideology that when the ideology is challenged by facts, the facts are just bent to conform to ideology. Gaddafi goes from being a brutal, kleptomaniacal clown to the defender of Libyan independence while the popular revolt seeking to overthrow him become catspaws of NATO. I unironically wish that I lived in your world. A place where a dozen countries can conspire together to bring down a dictatorship without pointless bickering or it becoming a transparent farce and a (even more horrible) bloodbath sounds like a pretty OK place to me.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:06
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Ice 9ine posted:Video of Ghaddafi getting sodomized That's pretty horrible. You should probably throw a NWS tag up on that link, because it's pretty NWS.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:07
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NPR did an extended piece on Caro. e:fb
rum sodomy the lash fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 16:13
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Zeroisanumber posted:It's interesting to see people become so invested in an ideology that when the ideology is challenged by facts, the facts are just bent to conform to ideology. Gaddafi goes from being a brutal, kleptomaniacal clown to the defender of Libyan independence while the popular revolt seeking to overthrow him become catspaws of NATO.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:23
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Mr. Sunshine posted:The above article is absolutely ludicrous. "The west has done bad things in the recent past. Also Iran, Al-Qaeda and oil, somehow. Ergo the intervention = evil." Not a loving word about the four decades of oppression, the native Libyan uprising or the Libyan and Arab requests for an intervention. Not a loving word about shooting protesters with AA guns. Not a loving word about a revolution toppling a dictator. NATO may be assholes, but you know what? gently caress trotskyists. gently caress them hard. 
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Oct 24, 2011 16:27
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Wow, just this morning I was thinking how lucky he was that the misrata brigade killed him quickly... On the other hand , this is the guy who ordered his militias to rob , rape and attack at random, then ordered that rape victims be prosecuted if they dared to complain about it, so im sure this is just karma.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:29
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Bulky Brute posted:It focuses on the west's 'wrongdoings' to argue that foreign policy under capitalism has a fundamental predatory character, to try and root out of your head the silly chauvinistic notion that somehow, after decades of imperial conquest and colonialism, your armed forces can still be a force for good in this world. Yes, I thought it was something like that. So NATO is incapable of ever doing good, even by accident? Yeah, that's a nice little binary world you've built yourself. E: If the NATO intervention was an unmitigated evil, I assume you believe that the world should have allowed Gaddafi to crush the revolution. Otherwise you are forced to admit that some good did come out of the intervention. Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 16:31
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Bulky Brute posted:It focuses on the west's 'wrongdoings' to argue that foreign policy under capitalism has a fundamental predatory character, to try and root out of your head the silly chauvinistic notion that somehow, after decades of imperial conquest and colonialism, your armed forces can still be a force for good in this world. You are arguing original sin as a viable political viewpoint? "Some capitalists in the past did bad things, all future capitalists are tainted because of it". You do know that you can replace 'capitalist' with 'communist' [Or more accurately anything] and it's the same thought right?
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Oct 24, 2011 16:36
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Mr. Sunshine posted:Yes, I thought it was something like that. So NATO is incapable of ever doing good, even by accident? Yeah, that's a nice little binary world you've built yourself.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:37
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Mr. Sunshine posted:E: If the NATO intervention was an unmitigated evil, I assume you believe that the world should have allowed Gaddafi to crush the revolution. Otherwise you are forced to admit that some good did come out of the intervention.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:50
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A transcription of the Caro interview from TFRI like turtles posted:The ragtag militias that overran Muammar Gaddafi's hometown included at least one American. Reporter Machrine Olivizi [no idea how to spell name] spoke to him on several occasions during the battle, and sent us this report.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:50
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Bulky Brute posted:Yes, I believe NATO plays a fundamentally reactionary (scary leftist word there) role in world affairs. I believe you can ascertain the political character of an organization through study and analysis of its actions. Foreign affairs is not a game of chance where heads, NATO does something good, tails, NATO does something bad. So what would the anti-interventionist's answer to the Libya situation have been?
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Oct 24, 2011 16:52
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Brown Moses posted:A transcription of the Caro interview from TFR Countdown until some American politician gives him an award.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:54
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Brown Moses posted:A transcription of the Caro interview from TFR Of all of the crazy poo poo that I've ever seen in this forum, Caro is quickly taking first place.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:56
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Brown Moses posted:A transcription of the Caro interview from TFR God this is just going to feed his delusions. He actually has national coverage of his exploits. If I'm thinking correctly, he really hasn't done anything illegal in terms of US law right? He didn't say he was CIA, he doesn't need a medical license there, etc. Sad but he could just carry on to the next crazy idea.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:57
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Darth123123 posted:God this is just going to feed his delusions. He actually has national coverage of his exploits. If I'm thinking correctly, he really hasn't done anything illegal in terms of US law right? He didn't say he was CIA, he doesn't need a medical license there, etc. Sad but he could just carry on to the next crazy idea. It worries me that someone with paranoid delusion is a countersniper, shooting at windows he think contains enemy snipers. It would be very helpful if everyone could point out the parts of his interview which are lies and exagerations, ideally with evidence.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:58
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Shut up and JAM! posted:Countdown until some American politician gives him an award. Like I said earlier, he'll become famous and there will be a blockbuster film made of his adventure, akin to Lawrence of Arabia. When future generations think of the Libyan civil war, they think of how Caro owned Gaddafi.
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Oct 24, 2011 16:59
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Zeroisanumber posted:So what would the anti-interventionist's answer to the Libya situation have been? Let Gaddafi cleanse Benghazi and finish crushing the revolt. While he does this you have angry interviews, send sternly worded letters, and apply sanctions which only further hurt the populace.
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Oct 24, 2011 17:03
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Zeroisanumber posted:So what would the anti-interventionist's answer to the Libya situation have been?
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Oct 24, 2011 17:04
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Couple of bits about Islam and Libyaquote:NTC leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil has also sought to dispel concerns that Libya will be adopting a hardline interpretation of Islamic law. quote:French foreign minister Alain Juppe has acknowledged NTC leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil's statements regarding concerns related to Libya adopted Islamic law.
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Oct 24, 2011 17:07
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Bulky Brute posted:As a trot I believe the working classes can and must liberate themselves by their own hands. So yeah, in a better world NATO would have stayed the gently caress out of Libya and let Libyans deal with their dictator, like many others have done throughout history. I don't mean to attack the genuinely good intentions of people that believe this NATO intervention was a positive development, I just think their beliefs are wrong. In other words: Cluck your tongue and shake your head while Benghazi burned because NATO intervention would destroy the purity of a peoples' revolution. Edit: Clarity. Zeroisanumber fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 17:10
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Zeroisanumber posted:Cluck your tongue and shake your head while Benghazi burned because NATO intervention destroyed the purity of a peoples' revolution.
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Oct 24, 2011 17:14
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Bulky Brute posted:As a trot I believe the working classes can and must liberate themselves by their own hands. So yeah, in a better world NATO would have stayed the gently caress out of Libya and let Libyans deal with their dictator, like many others have done throughout history. I don't mean to attack the genuinely good intentions of people that believe this NATO intervention was a positive development, I just think their beliefs are wrong. And when the Benghazi rebellion was crushed and, those forces free, Misrata was reduced to ash, what would you have the working classes do then? Edit: Don't bring NATO into this. You said what you wanted; I'm telling you what would have happened. I'm not saying NATO was perfect in this, I'm asking you: When the rebellion was brutally crushed, what solution would have you have supported then?
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Oct 24, 2011 17:15
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Bulky Brute posted:As a trot I believe the working classes can and must liberate themselves by their own hands. So yeah, in a better world NATO would have stayed the gently caress out of Libya and let Libyans deal with their dictator, like many others have done throughout history. I don't mean to attack the genuinely good intentions of people that believe this NATO intervention was a positive development, I just think their beliefs are wrong. So when the Libyan revolutionaries proved incapable of facing off against a professional army, they should have died in the streets, their ideological purity unsullied, rather than accept help from the very people they, the Arab League and the UN Security Council asked for help? Gotcha. E: Bulky Brute posted:Haha yes the deaths of thousands, the destruction of an entire city under humanitarian NATO bombs (funny how NATO originally intervened to stop Gaddafi from bombing his own cities), the ethnic cleansing, it's just one big joke! Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 17:15
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Bulky Brute posted:As a trot I believe the working classes can and must liberate themselves by their own hands. So yeah, in a better world NATO would have stayed the gently caress out of Libya and let Libyans deal with their dictator, like many others have done throughout history. I don't mean to attack the genuinely good intentions of people that believe this NATO intervention was a positive development, I just think their beliefs are wrong. If you recall, before NATO intervened the Libyan rebels were on the verge of being exterminated and were pretty much begging the outside world for help. They didn't have the equipment, training or manpower to stop the military which was attacking them. Without NATO intervention, they would have been crushed and thousands of people would have been murdered in Benghazi. I'm sure western nations will do their best to be shitheels in the aftermath and try to secure contracts which loot Libya's natural resources/meddle in the new government. The Libyan revolution may result in a new lovely government replacing the old lovely government. However, this use of force is one of the very few times in my lifetime that I saw as justified since it averted what would likely have been a horrifying massacre in Benghazi, and enabled the revolution to succeed
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Oct 24, 2011 17:19
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You guys don't really understand the trepidation that leftists have towards NATO interventions, which some would feel is justified. No one is arguing that Gaddafi was a perfect leader, or even Stalin. However, the unfortunate thing about being a leftist is that all the really powerful people in the world want you dead. This tends to make even the most well-meaning people a little defensive. To paraphrase, a baby you tried to strangle in the crib isn't going to be the most well adjusted person. I read a report that his government got a lot more brutal after a failed coup early on. As well, the reports that anti-aircraft weapons were used against unarmed civilians was disproved, so we're back to the fact that they used small arms fire against unarmed civilians. Well, that's pretty terrible, but it's happened in the U.S, and it just happened on the borders of Syria and Israel. This didn't result in a NATO-backed civil war though. For all their sympathy, I really feel for Americans. The vast majority of the media they receive is so slanted that even well-meaning people have no understanding of what socialism even entails. The problems that do exist in those countries that have communist governments can't be ignored, but then neither can the problems that capitalism causes. The U.S. has been shown to be completely willing to overthrow democratically elected governments that closed their countries for foreign investment. Do you not remember them throwing out the election results in Gaza that favoured HAMAS? They've influenced elections in plenty of countries, all against the spectre of Communism, but don't the people living in a country get to decide something like that? The closest historical parallel to the failed Communist revolutions of the 20th century is the French Revolution. Both tried to move away from an oppressive mode of government, both saw massive repression both from former elites in the country and foreign elites, and they both had an oppressive dictator emerge from the constant war they were subjected to for attempting to better their government. As far as the current freedom of elections that western countries do enjoy, the narrative created by massive news magnates, the rhetoric and actions of the governments have made it so that we are allowed to make choices, within a narrow approved range. The better funded person tends to win elections. The real problem is a total lack of class consciousness. Ardent Communist fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 17:21
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Speaking as a Swede who has studied marxism and Russian/Soviet history rather extensively, I'm getting pretty tired of the socialists coming in ever so often going "Oh you poor Americans, you just don't know what socialism is! If you did, you too would want the Libyan revolutionaries dead."
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Oct 24, 2011 17:28
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Golbez posted:And when the Benghazi rebellion was crushed and, those forces free, Misrata was reduced to ash, what would you have the working classes do then?
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