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Slime posted:It strikes me that someone who is lawful evil is somebody who would happily abuse the law for their own gain. In fact I'd say it's part of what makes them lawful evil. Someone who is chaotic evil would ignore the law, while someone who is lawful evil would use the law to gently caress someone over while maintaining a veneer of innocence. I think the poster meant "in 4e there is no distinction between Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil, because they were collapsed into one Evil alignment".
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Nov 18, 2011 08:58
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 14:21 |
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NOOOOOOO NOT AN ALIGNMENT DISCUSSION
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Nov 18, 2011 11:54
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Why are we pretending like the alignment system isn't a total piece of poo poo? Neutral Good and Chaotic Good are often times the exact same thing, same goes for Neutral/Chaotic Evil. It's a crappy system that inadequately describes ethical frameworks and character motivations.
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Nov 18, 2011 17:12
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Unaligned is the best alignment 
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Nov 18, 2011 18:11
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Captain Oblivious posted:Why are we pretending like the alignment system isn't a total piece of poo poo? You, sir, have no soul. 
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Nov 18, 2011 18:14
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The only good alignment chart is the Doctor Who alignment chart 
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Nov 18, 2011 18:50
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Cabbit posted:No, the dude is pretty clearly dumb. He's pursuing three seconds of spitting in the face of a tyrant in favor of smiling, walking away, and using the remaining years of his life and his considerable skills to act as a saboteur or insurrectionist. Given a choice between immediate, easy but ultimately shallow gratification or a long hard road of ultimately more satisfying rebellion, he took the route that required the least amount of thought. So..... He's with Occupy Tarquin Square. Eschers Basement posted:Haley's dad is being stupid and makes me want to punch him, but that may be because reminds me way too much of someone in my gaming group who will absolutely gently caress over everything - plot, relationships, his and our chances of survival - in exchange for a chance to make a snide defiant comment to the Big Bad. I had one of those. He was the LEADER of a new campaign we were starting. A group of mercs being basically given a letter of marque-type assignment by the local king. The leader of the party thought he'd be all cool and bad-boy-like, and insulted the king and dissed the royal house right there in the palace court room. I think he was surprised when I had the palace guard descend on the guy and beat him to death and had his party banished as PNGs from the kingdom. It put an immediate kibosh into a long-planned campaign, but it taught them something about role-playing. The next week, he "rejoined" the campaign as the only 1st-level player in a 3rd-and-4th-level group and no longer their leader, as they had to figure out how to get to the border now that they were friendless and had no support and no one would sell them any supplies. Effingham fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Nov 18, 2011 |
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Nov 18, 2011 21:49
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oops.
Effingham fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Nov 18, 2011 |
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Nov 18, 2011 21:54
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Ponsonby Britt posted:I think the poster meant "in 4e there is no distinction between Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil, because they were collapsed into one Evil alignment". No, I meant there was never any distinction in the first place. Alignment discussions bring nothing but misery though so I don't mind if your view varies.
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Nov 18, 2011 21:57
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Captain Oblivious posted:Why are we pretending like the alignment system isn't a total piece of poo poo? There is a reason, even though it kept the entirely vestigal alignment system, 4e rolls Chaotic Good into good, and Lawful Evil into Evil. Because there is almost no functional difference.
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Nov 18, 2011 21:58
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There's only no functional difference between Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil if you're poo poo at playing a Lawful Evil character. Compare Tarquin to literally any other villain in the comic.
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Nov 18, 2011 22:45
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D&D alignments actually are supposed to work as a description of your character as "does stuff that [x]-aligned deities tend to want you to do" rather than as a description of a system of morals. They just get misinterpreted as a moral descriptor a lot.
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Nov 18, 2011 22:48
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Cabbit posted:There's only no functional difference between Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil if you're poo poo at playing a Lawful Evil character. Compare Tarquin to literally any other villain in the comic. The easiest way to tell the difference between the two is comparing two characters that AREN'T big shots and can make up whichever laws they like.
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Nov 19, 2011 00:33
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A Lawful Evil entity believes that established social and natural laws can be used or manipulated to suit their own selfish purposes. Laws are rarely broken by this person because that would weaken them and limit their usefulness: Usury Abusive administrators Ambulance chasers Military Juntas A Neutral Evil entity believe that the law is beneath their own personal interests. They recognize that breaking the law is a significant risk, so they do not flaunt the law. They break the law if and only if the personal gain offsets the risk or there will be no repercussions. Organized crime Corrupt politicians Most petty criminals A Chaotic Evil entity believes that any outside regulations are an insult. They are egomaniacs, as concerned with demonstrating their own disregard for authority as they are with personal gain. Serial killers Arsonists Motorcycle gangs Teenagers The iconic question of the alignment: LE: "How can I exploit the system?" NE: "Can I get away with this?" CE: "gently caress you."
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Nov 21, 2011 17:32
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Sergeant Rock posted:NOOOOOOO NOT AN ALIGNMENT DISCUSSION Muwahahahahaha...
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Nov 21, 2011 17:42
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Cabbit posted:There's only no functional difference between Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil if you're poo poo at playing a Lawful Evil character. Compare Tarquin to literally any other villain in the comic. Neutral Evil can be all the things Tarquin is if it tickles their fancy. Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil encompass each other, in most respects, to the degree that delineation is meaningless.
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Nov 21, 2011 17:44
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Everyone shut up about alignment. New comic. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html 
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Nov 21, 2011 17:45
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Oh my God I love Tarquin. He's got like 500 sons doesn't he?
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Nov 21, 2011 18:42
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I am sad that they seem to be about to leave Tarquin. 
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Nov 21, 2011 18:45
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Draketooth is going to be such a letdown after Tarquin.Captain Oblivious posted:Neutral Evil can be all the things Tarquin is if it tickles their fancy. Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil encompass each other, in most respects, to the degree that delineation is meaningless. This is not true at all though. It's really very simple. Lawful Evil types have an ideological or logical reason to abide by the law. Chaotic Evil types have an idealogical or logical reason to flaunt the law. Neutral Evil types are about pure selfishness, and break or abide by laws when it serves their self interest. I don't understand why this is tough to get.
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Nov 21, 2011 18:55
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Toussaint Louverture posted:This is not true at all though. It's really very simple. Lawful Evil types have an ideological or logical reason to abide by the law. Chaotic Evil types have an idealogical or logical reason to flaunt the law. Neutral Evil types are about pure selfishness, and break or abide by laws when it serves their self interest. You want "flout", not "flaunt". (I learned that from reading a letter sent to Dragon magazine. (I'm such a nerd. (And so old.)))
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Nov 21, 2011 18:57
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Oh poo poo new comic is up! The Draketooth Clan is horrible.
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Nov 21, 2011 21:15
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Toussaint Louverture posted:Draketooth is going to be such a letdown after Tarquin. If the actions and methods pursued by one alignment can and often are identical to one another regardless of what they internally tell themselves, what exactly is gained by classification? Also I'd argue that the motivations of Lawful Evil often boil down to simple selfishness. The controlling personality often has selfishness at its core.
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Nov 21, 2011 21:25
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Tarquin is the sort of person the phrase "magnificent bastard" was created for.
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Nov 21, 2011 22:36
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Toussaint Louverture posted:A Neutral Evil entity believe that the law is beneath their own personal interests. They recognize that breaking the law is a significant risk, so they do not flaunt the law. They break the law if and only if the personal gain offsets the risk or there will be no repercussions. I think this focusses too much on "law" as THE LAW. "Law" means there is a structured order you follow, IMHO, and in that sense, organized crime is LAWFUL evil -- they have a strict set of rules, a solid hierarchy, and so on.
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Nov 21, 2011 23:17
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Why do I have this creeping feeling that, before all is said and done, it's going to be revealed that Haley is unwittingly part of the Draketooth clan?
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Nov 21, 2011 23:24
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Cabbit posted:Why do I have this creeping feeling that, before all is said and done, it's going to be revealed that Haley is unwittingly part of the Draketooth clan? Totally possible. Red hair... her father "knows a place nearby" to hide. It was one of the first things I thought of too. Not specifically that she's the child, but that there's a definite chance that she's part of it. Enough of her background is unknown that anything is possible.
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Nov 21, 2011 23:31
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Toussaint Louverture posted:LE: "How can I exploit the system?" Notice how these two are pretty much the same? Fun new comic. I am surprised I laughed at Tarquin's spoiler alert but it happened.
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Nov 22, 2011 00:01
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Hypocrisy posted:Notice how these two are pretty much the same? Except that they're not, at all. Let me rephrase that for you. LE: How can I do evil without breaking the law (perhaps by using the law in ways it was not meant to be used, hence "exploit")? NE: How can I not get caught breaking the law (hence "get away with")?
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Nov 22, 2011 00:10
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Elan was notably smart this time. I like that. It's good that he's getting more useful.
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Nov 22, 2011 00:15
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Hypocrisy posted:Notice how these two are pretty much the same? No, not really. Exploit the system means work within it. "Get away with it" means do whatever you want as long as you don't get caught. Lawful evil people don't give a gently caress about getting caught because they're following the letter of the law. As a rule they use it as a cudgel to get what they want and a shield against reprisal. Neutral evil may do it, but not as a rule.
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Nov 22, 2011 00:20
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Elan was notably smart this time. I like that. It's good that he's getting more useful. Maybe, or maybe he left too soon and is going in without critical information that Tarquin would still have been able to provide if he'd been allowed to finish his story. And Elan would know well enough that the excitement factor means he'd show up just in the nick of time anyway whether or not he listens to the whole story so he'd might as well get all the info he can first.
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Nov 22, 2011 00:52
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I'll ask again, if a Neutral Evil character can go his entire career acting Lawful Evil because it's convenient, what is the point of classification? Does the alignment system justify existence y/n
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Nov 22, 2011 01:03
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Captain Oblivious posted:I'll ask again, if a Neutral Evil character can go his entire career acting Lawful Evil because it's convenient, what is the point of classification? Since when is it ever possible to never have a personal advantage by going against the law? If nothing else he'd do a shitload of littering when no one else is around. And Lawful Evil characters hate littering.
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Nov 22, 2011 01:09
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Cliff Racer posted:Since when is it ever possible to never have a personal advantage by going against the law? If nothing else he'd do a shitload of littering when no one else is around. And Lawful Evil characters hate littering. Gonna disagree that Lawful Evil characters don't break the law even when they can get away with it, unless you're seriously telling me the Evil Vizier isn't going to hire the odd assassin every now and then. Lawful Evil does not equate to a literal COMPULSION to obey the law.
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Nov 22, 2011 02:05
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Nearly five years after Miko killed an unarmed octogenarian and we're still arguing about alignments. The Draketooths are pricks.
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Nov 22, 2011 02:05
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DrakePegasus posted:Nearly five years after Miko killed an unarmed octogenarian and we're still arguing about alignments. Stockholm Syndrome is a powerful thing, folks just can't let go of lovely systems. Nine stereotypes that pseudo-overlap is not an effective way to categorize personalities, if indeed human personalities warrant categorization in the first place. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Nov 22, 2011 |
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Nov 22, 2011 02:06
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Captain Oblivious posted:I'll ask again, if a Neutral Evil character can go his entire career acting Lawful Evil because it's convenient, what is the point of classification? Then he's Lawful Evil.
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Nov 22, 2011 02:11
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I'd like to see the GM that actually buys "He's really neutral evil, he only acts lawful evil!"
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Nov 22, 2011 02:23
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Elan was notably smart this time. I like that. It's good that he's getting more useful.
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Nov 22, 2011 02:29
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