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Crackbone posted:It is far more complex than ST. You've got EX moves, Ultras, focus attacks (and FADCs), quick getups, a much more convoluted juggling system, longer combo chains, and plinking. Sure it's not GG, but there's a ton of stuff dumped on top of the something like HF or ST. I'm pretty sure he already knows that. He just hates the game, a lot. Because it's bad. It's a bad game, that is bad, you guys. Anyway moving on to TSG's other Bad Game of the month, people were asking about a good game to prepare for SFxT. I know next to nothing about Darkstalkers, but doesn't Vampire Savior have a very similar chaining/EX special system? I guess it's a good time to try that game out. Still, SFIV is the best choice, a lot of characters are practically the same (SFxT Juri is pretty much her SFIV version on permanent
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Feb 25, 2012 15:20
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AndyElusive posted:It also let you play as a goddamn demon tank. I'd like a fighting game like that. Demon tank, galactus, petshop, maybe the car from ST except running and with a driver in it. To be clear, this should be a crossover.
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Feb 25, 2012 15:40
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Crackbone posted:It is far more complex than ST. You've got EX moves, Ultras, focus attacks (and FADCs), quick getups, a much more convoluted juggling system, longer combo chains, and plinking. Sure it's not GG, but there's a ton of stuff dumped on top of the something like HF or ST. You know the more I think about it there is a LOT of crap in SF4, but I still think of it as a pretty bare bones game. Plenty of reviews and statements from Capcom themselves talked about how it's a stripped-down throwback to SF2. Obviously it isn't if you understand the game but I can see where the perception comes from. Very little in the game feels "new" compared to SF2. You've got your one big gimmick in the Focus Attack which is probably one of the most innocuous and boring gimmicks they've come up with. Ultras are just a variation on supers, EX moves are just specials that cost meter. There's nothing like parrying or CCs that makes you go "Whoa! That's Different". I mean nobody is getting excited over quick getup. I guess that's where my gut reaction of "it's not that complex" comes from. So basically I'm saying you are right, but to bring it back to the issue of whether people would play a game without a crapload of systems, I think SF4 was very intentionally designed to seem SF2-ish to the casual observer anyway, and since casual players decide what gets played now... Spermgod fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 16:07
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interrodactyl posted:Blitzkampf is fun if you like playing advanced Rock/Paper/Scissors.
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Feb 25, 2012 18:04
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Mega Comrade posted:For someone who clearly doesn't like SF4 you certainly talk about it a lot. Don't get me wrong you post some informative stuff too but you do bring up how bad you think it is an awful lot. TSG's just one of those gimmicks who tries to hurt your eyes by making you roll them to an extreme degree
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Feb 25, 2012 18:11
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LEAVE STREET FIGHTER IV ALONE 
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Feb 25, 2012 18:26
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Leave Street Fighter IV alone and fix Marvel 3 for the love of god Capcom please do it!!
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Feb 25, 2012 18:32
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You can disagree with "TSG" but if you think he's a gimmick/troll there's no way you understand what he's talking about.
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Feb 25, 2012 18:32
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Tokyo Slutty Gal posted:LEAVE STREET FIGHTER IV ALONE FILTHY CASUALS Because it's not even worth its own post... Tokyo Slutty Gal posted:So basically I'm saying you are right, but to bring it back to the issue of whether people would play a game without a crapload of systems, I think SF4 was very intentionally designed to seem SF2-ish to the casual observer anyway, and since casual players decide what gets played now... redmercer fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 18:32
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redmercer posted:FILTHY CASUALS I challenge you to find a post of mine wherein I complain about casual players. You Can't Do It.
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Feb 25, 2012 18:35
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redmercer posted:Because it's not even worth its own post...
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Feb 25, 2012 18:47
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whats the matter with you guys dont you want to EXPAND THE SCENE??
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Feb 25, 2012 19:07
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Mio Bison posted:You can disagree with "TSG" but if you think he's a gimmick/troll there's no way you understand what he's talking about. I just assume he's the latest polarity alt. So less of a troll and more a big angry bulldog guarding the gates of the thread and scaring off missionaries from the Church of Latter Day Fighting Games.
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Feb 25, 2012 19:20
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Why does anyone think Capcom or whoever would make a game that didn't try to appeal to a large audience and be accessible after a 10yr hiatus? Why do you think they, as a business, would spend a shitload of money on designing and creating a game solely for the enjoyment of the small handful of people that've been playing on GGPO? Also, the "casual players" that folks are blaming for SF4's popularity didn't exist before SF4.
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Feb 25, 2012 19:27
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The Joe Man posted:Why does anything think Capcom or whoever would make a game that didn't try to appeal to a large audience and be accessible after a 10yr hiatus? Why do you think they, as a business, would spend a shitload of money on designing and creating a game solely for the enjoyment of the small handful of people that've been playing on GGPO? Who the hell are you even talking to
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Feb 25, 2012 19:28
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Tokyo Slutty Gal posted:Who the hell are you even talking to I don't know, probably you
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Feb 25, 2012 19:29
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Well I know I didn't express the sentiment that Capcom shouldn't try to appeal to a wide audience and neither did anyone else.
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Feb 25, 2012 19:30
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It seems like every argument for sf4 is centered around it having sold a lot of copies. Which is true i guess but also super irrelevant to anything anyone is talking about
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Feb 25, 2012 19:33
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Washin Tong posted:Anyway moving on to TSG's other Bad Game of the month, people were asking about a good game to prepare for SFxT. I know next to nothing about Darkstalkers, but doesn't Vampire Savior have a very similar chaining/EX special system? I guess it's a good time to try that game out. Vampire Savior is awesome and everyone should play it, but it's nothing like SF4/SFxT. It's more of an early ancestor of the Versus series / Guilty Gear, although it doesn't resemble those games all that closely either.
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Feb 25, 2012 19:33
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The Joe Man posted:Why does anyone think Capcom or whoever would make a game that didn't try to appeal to a large audience and be accessible after a 10yr hiatus? Why do you think they, as a business, would spend a shitload of money on designing and creating a game solely for the enjoyment of the small handful of people that've been playing on GGPO? Well yeah duh, SF4's design makes perfect business sense for Capcom, and one game's success completely revitalizing an entire genre is undeniably impressive. Plus, SF4's success has made FG developers start giving a poo poo again, giving us Soul Calibur 5, KOF13, Tekken Tag 2, VF5 coming to consoles soon... SF4 has given us good things, it's pretty hard to deny that. The problem is that SF4 itself isn't one of the good things.
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Feb 25, 2012 19:45
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This was supposed to be about the complexity or lack thereof of SF4's system not yet another "why SF4 is/isn't bad" debate. I mean don't let me tell you guys what to discuss but does anyone really want that? And yes I appreciate I probably shouldn't make offhand derogatory comments about the game and then say this but there is a categorical difference between offhand flippant comments and Getting Into It imo.
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Feb 25, 2012 19:53
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Why would you argue its complexity at all? The inclusion of focus attacks alone makes it completely different from any version of sf2. Like what more is there to say?
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Feb 25, 2012 19:58
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SF2:HF was very simple, and it was the height of popularity for Street Fighter (at least in America, I'm not Japanese.) However, that was twenty years ago. All of these standard modern features weren't out yet. I just have some random thoughts and no real conclusions: It is possible that fighting games have just accumulated so much junk over the years, that something like a reboot is necessary. SF4 was marketed as a return to SF2, which it was in many ways. However, watching a Seth vs CViper match you wouldn't realize it. SF2 was designed to keep you pumping quarters into the machine, while SFxT is designed to get the most pre-orders. You just can't convince people pre-release that a game is extremely solid and will give people zillions of hours of enjoyment, but you can sell zillions of pre-orders by giving people 50+ of their favorite characters or having the wildest super animations. I think this is just a reality of the current market, that can't be negotiated with. It is tricky because you would assume casual players would want a more simple product, but I think it is safe to say that isn't true with FGs. Adding more and more systems into games seems to make them more scrub-friendly. What I wouldn't be opposed to, is that the old style games just fork away into their own competitive space. I don't see why ST or HF shouldn't just become a sport. If the unique conditions that created them won't ever happen again, that is okay, because we still have the games. Life would be easier with a proper port or two, though. We have seen this on a small scale with the USA ST Revival, and the NZ HF revival, etc. ^ I don't see this happening immediately, or whatever. Just as FGs get more and more complex and nutty, there may be growing participation in this retro FG revival. I don't think it is too crazy to imagine. 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 20:04
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Sade posted:Well yeah duh, SF4's design makes perfect business sense for Capcom, and one game's success completely revitalizing an entire genre is undeniably impressive. Plus, SF4's success has made FG developers start giving a poo poo again, giving us Soul Calibur 5, KOF13, Tekken Tag 2, VF5 coming to consoles soon... SF4 has given us good things, it's pretty hard to deny that. The problem is that SF4 itself isn't one of the good things. Well we already had VF5 on consoles, it's just that Sega didn't give it a poo poo about it for like 5 years. Not that it takes anything away from your point though, I'm just being pedantic as hell.
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Feb 25, 2012 20:07
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40 OZ posted:It is tricky because you would assume casual players would want a more simple product, but I think it is safe to say that isn't true with FGs. Adding more and more systems into games seems to make them more scrub-friendly. I would add that of all the ways to make a game more "scrub friendly" adding systems does the least harm to the game's competetive depth, at least potentially. Obviously it depends on whether the added systems interact well with fundamentals or just trivialize them, and how well they stand on their own, but MvC2 and the later GG:XX iterations seem like a pretty good proof of concept to me. (That is to say, they're proof that being systems-heavy isn't bad for games. Whether systems-heavy games are more popular or not is another question, I'm just assuming you're right about that for the moment.)
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Feb 25, 2012 20:17
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I would add that of all the ways to make a game more "scrub friendly" adding systems does the least harm to the game's competetive depth, at least potentially. I'm not saying games can't have lots of systems and be great games, I'm just saying it feels like there is some correlation with 'more systems' and 'more scrub friendly.' Maybe it is just because there are so many bunk systems these days! I suppose I have a huge bias for simplicity. I want the core experience distilled, with less 'poo poo to remember,' gem loadouts, groove settings, levels of x-factor, pandoras, bulgarian hyper drive cancels, etc. Less can be nice sometimes, but there isn't any games going for 'less' anymore. Regardless, I wanted to leave that comment out, because I knew it would attract the most controversy. I'm willing to accept I'm just flatly wrong about it, I'm not that married to it. 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 20:21
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I was agreeing with you.  Like I said in an earlier post, I think the reason it's true is because every system you add to your game is another thing a player could potentially master to get a leg up. If you're playing a game that is almost 100% fundamentals there's a very limited field of skills that will make you good at the game, by definition. Skill at the game becomes a very linear, hierarchical thing, you're either better or worse and there aren't many clever ways around it. On the other hand, if you start adding new systems, you can potentially get good at one of those and use it as a partial substitute for being good at something else. This can be bad if the new system overwhelms all the others, but it can also be good thing because now the abstract idea of "a good player at game X" includes more playstyles and variation. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 20:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I was agreeing with you. Oh, I saw MvC2 and GG and I figured the mob was outside my door already. I was furiously backpedaling. I see what you were saying, now. 
40 OZ fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 20:32
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In case anybody is interested, Blue Revolution U.S. Finals are being held today at 5:00 PST, 8:00 EST, look forward to seeing Sparks thoroughly embarrass some scene celebrities.  edit: Oh poo poo, link to stream here- http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive
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Feb 25, 2012 20:40
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Every MvC2 system makes sense for the kind of game that it is. It's a really elegant ecosystem, it's not like they had a solid design already and then said "this needs gimmicks!" and put a bunch of extraneous poo poo on top. GG is the same way. That's the difference between those games and, say, Alpha 3 or SFxT. I don't think there's necessarily any correlation between the elegance of the system and quality though. 3S = elegant badgame, CvS2 = gimmicky goodgame. That said CvS2 can exist because we already had the gimmick-free epitome of that kind of game. It would be a crying shame if they'd added X-Factor into MvC2 (even if X-Factor wasn't the utter abortion that it is) and the gimmick-free MvC2 had never happened.
Spermgod fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 20:41
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40 OZ posted:^ I don't see this happening immediately, or whatever. Just as FGs get more and more complex and nutty, there may be growing participation in this retro FG revival. I don't think it is too crazy to imagine. Not all the new fighting games are super far away from retro, KOF is pretty similar to older KOFs. SFIV is a pretty straightforward game sure lots of mechanics but most of them are pretty straight forward and don't have silly execution requirement on them. SC V is just a 3D fighter with EX's and supers which isn't really too hard to grasp. Doujin games in general love doing kind of basic old school footies with 1/2 new mechanic(s) that is/are weird, Heck just look at Akatsuki, Ougon, Vanguard, Koihime(arcade only).
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Feb 25, 2012 20:43
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If you're playing a game that is almost 100% fundamentals there's a very limited field of skills that will make you good at the game, by definition. Skill at the game becomes a very linear, hierarchical thing, you're either better or worse and there aren't many clever ways around it. Indeed. One of more interesting things with complex games, is that it can be difficult to figure out if someone is actually skilled at the game. This is this recent explosion of "FRAUD" lately. There are MvC3 players who have placed top 8 at a big tourney, and been considered a 'fraud' who is one gimmick or trick away from being an average player. I don't mean in the joking sense or that this is 'poo poo stream monsters say', I mean that there is huge disagreement between good players on whether or not some guys are actually skilled. It is really tough, as you said, to be some big FRAUD of a simple game like SF2. There's nowhere to hide. I'm not saying things should be one way or another, I can appreciate in some way this kind of thing. A top player can get beat by a nobody, people get to go crazy when the new trick is shown on stream, etc. ShinsoBEAM! posted:Not all the new fighting games are super far away from retro, KOF is pretty similar to older KOFs. SFIV is a pretty straightforward game sure lots of mechanics but most of them are pretty straight forward and don't have silly execution requirement on them. SC V is just a 3D fighter with EX's and supers which isn't really too hard to grasp. Doujin games in general love doing kind of basic old school footies with 1/2 new mechanic(s) that is/are weird, Heck just look at Akatsuki, Ougon, Vanguard, Koihime(arcade only). This is a relevant scale thing, and by the context of the discussion, SF4 and KOF13 would be considered complex games. I don't mean to say that SF4 is in some other galaxy than SF2, again, this is within a certain scale. I won't dare comment on 3D games and I'm also too ignorant to comment on doujin fighters. 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 20:49
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40 OZ posted:I won't dare comment on 3D games and I'm also too ignorant to comment on doujin fighters. I see people say "doujin fighters" sometimes, but I don't know what it means  .
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Feb 25, 2012 21:01
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Mr. Fun posted:I see people say "doujin fighters" sometimes, but I don't know what it means Mizuumi.net posted:An obligatory definition at this point: “doujin” simply means independent, published apart from a professional or “mainstream” company. Ironically, many doujin titles these days boast production values comparable with “real” games, as seen with the upcoming Umineko fighting game, and even back during its original release, Melty Blood was noted for having a number of high-profile voice actors and actresses in its lineup. While the word “doujin” has been vernacularized into becoming synonymous with airdashes, poor production values, or anime-styled designs, none of these perceptions are correct (although with doujin fighters typically being based off of anime sources, the latter is more often true than not with only a few exceptions). Well, it depends...
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Feb 25, 2012 21:03
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Mr. Fun posted:I see people say "doujin fighters" sometimes, but I don't know what it means Anime games, specifically the ones based on japanese comic books. Their design is heavily influenced by guilty gear, but most of them don't really understand why guilty gear is the way it is so they just lump big piles of extra mechanics and bars all over the place.
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Feb 25, 2012 21:04
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Doujin games are pretty much indie games. This is about the most straightforward description you can get.NecroMonster posted:Anime games, specifically the ones based on japanese comic books. Their design is heavily influenced by guilty gear, but most of them don't really understand why guilty gear is the way it is so they just lump big piles of extra mechanics and bars all over the place. Wow this is wrong on so many levels.
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Feb 25, 2012 21:09
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A synonym for "a bad game". 
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Feb 25, 2012 21:12
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:Wow this is wrong on so many levels. Why? Because I didn't include the bit about them being indipendent japanese comic books? Or because most of them have gameplay informed by their various gimmick systems when guilty gears "gimmick" systems were put in place to inform the gameplay? Would you like to argue about whether doujin games gimmicks are there to inform the gameplay in specific ways, or whether they are there to represent something in the doujin they are based on? It is worth noting that I don't "hate" doujin games, A lot of the later games in some of these series are quite good.
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Feb 25, 2012 21:19
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By definition, "doujin" refers to Japanese comics, and doujin fighters as a term initially referred to garage-developed fighters based off Japanese comics/visual novel games. Over time, the term has become divorced from its roots. Doujin is used more often than not to say "indie fighter with anime-style characters" but it doesn't have any solid meaning.
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Feb 25, 2012 21:27
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It means amateur or self-published. "Indie" is probably close enough.
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Feb 25, 2012 21:38
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