The Toyobaru thread: We got the car we asked for, and WE'RE ALL ANGRY ABOUT IT

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > The Toyobaru thread: We got the car we asked for, and WE'RE ALL ANGRY ABOUT IT

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Literally Lewis Hamilton: Feb 22, 2005

I know the Subaru has the steering wheel controls, do those come in on the Scion as well?

# ? Feb 25, 2012 19:04

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 13:18

Powershift: Nov 23, 2009

Bovril Delight posted:

I know the Subaru has the steering wheel controls, do those come in on the Scion as well?

Doesn't look like it, not on the base model at least

edit: I don't seem them on the subaru either.

# ? Feb 25, 2012 20:00

Ziploc: Sep 19, 2006; MX-5

Ugh. gently caress that FR-S center stack. lovely red clock, bulbous audio... blech.

# ? Feb 25, 2012 20:43

ppp: Feb 13, 2012; by angerbot

Ziploc posted:

Ugh. gently caress that FR-S center stack. lovely red clock, bulbous audio... blech.

The clock looks the same as in the brz, and the head unit is a double din so you can put whatever you want in it? It seems like this is better than 90% of the entire market now.

# ? Feb 25, 2012 20:52

awesome-express: Dec 30, 2008

Both center consoles look pretty bad tbh.

# ? Feb 25, 2012 20:53

DEUCE SLUICE: Feb 6, 2004; I dreamt I was an old dog, stuck in a honeypot. It was horrifying.

BRZ will have steering wheel buttons.

# ? Feb 25, 2012 21:04

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

this ain't really a car you buy for the interior

# ? Feb 25, 2012 21:29

japtor: Oct 28, 2005

Pics of the 86 have the same center stack as the BRZ, so it's just the Scion (base only?)?

# ? Feb 25, 2012 21:39

blk: Dec 19, 2009; .

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

this ain't really a car you buy for the interior

Sure, but it doesn't hurt to make the most of what's available.

# ? Feb 25, 2012 22:09

Seat Safety Switch: May 27, 2008; MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.; Pillbug

Apparently Vorshlag and a few others have had their way with measuring a display model. At the risk of being a jerk, here's what they had to say (emphasis mine):

quote:

Today Matt and I from Vorshlag and Brian from AST/Moton were able to preview a real live production 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited. This is the Subaru version of the joint Subaru/Toyota "FT86" chassis. I like Subaru a lot mor than Scion, so that's what we wanted to see. The 40+ "pre-release pictures" were taken by Vorshlag on Feb 25, 2012 start here. The BRZs go on sale in a week and should start arriving in early May.

The folks at Subaru of Plano only had the car for a day, and I had hoped to weigh this thing and get a "real number" on this car. Weight is key to everything for performance, to me. I've read these will be anything from 2600 to 2800 pounds. Big range there. We were also hoping to be able to pull off the front and rear wheels and measure strut and shock lengths as well as look at a few things like that up close. The guy in charge (some random car dealer there) said "no dice". We couldn't drive it, start it, move it, jack it up, but we could open the hood and trunk, and people were allowed to sit inside. Matt and I were the first ones at the dealership to see the car at 9 am today, and Brian Hanchey rolled up shortly after, followed by Sean Goodpasture and some other local folks that heard about this car being on display today.

We measured all sorts of things and Brian figured out what shocks and strut its going to take (a unique front strut, but not all THAT new), what camber plate it needs (Vorshlag already makes one that works perfectly - but it wasn't what I thought! I brought several we make and quickly figured out which Subaru chassis they stole the front suspension from), and verified some of the published numbers - like wheelbase (101"), total length (167"), etc. I also measured "outer track width" (from outer sidewall to sidewall, not center of tire) and it was over 68" wide, even with the skinny rear end 215/45/17 tires! That's a good bit wider than an E36 BMW.

Take all of the "driving preview" impressions and throw them out the window, because they are meaningless - the factory tires coming on US models SUCK. These pathetic, skinny things are the same tires that come on a Toyota Prius... not kidding. As in "the opposite of performance tires". So it probably spins the rear tires easily and slides around like mad, but its likely making 0.7g lateral on these all weather, super-low-rolling-resistance microtires. Anyone that drives one of these on the factory rubber needs to know that it will make NO GRIP in bone stock form, but with a proper wheel and tire upgrade it should be considerably better. After crawling around and under it for 2 hours I know what its going to take to fit 17x9" wheels front and rear - it won't be super easy, but we'll make it happen, even if it means having a run of wheels custom made.

The car is begging for negative front camber, needs to be lowered at least 2", and is going to lose a considerable amount of weight with typical track/autocross prep. The rear muffler is a massive suitcase sized box, easily 50 pounds, and there's another resonator upstream (where a proper race muffler will easily fit). The exhaust routing is FUNKY - typical Subaru turbo car routing, with the driver's side manifold routed across the front of the motor (where a turbo would normally go) and into the passenger side, then routed back. Yuck! There will be a market for custom headers and full exhaust systems for NA cars, which should lose 60-80 pounds or more (in STX legal trim) in the exhaust alone.

Left: The BRZ engine is almost entirely behind front axle centerline. Right: AWD Impreza engine is almost entire in front of front axle centerline

What else... oh, the motor placement really is pretty much perfect, and this chassis was NEVER meant to be an AWD car. Engine is supposed to be 9" further back than a typical AWD Subaru boxer 4, and it looks more like 2 feet further back. The front axle centerline is almost lined up with the front of the motor, unlike most Imprezas and the like (see comparison above).

The strut tower bracing is simple yet super effective, with stand-offs welded to the strut towers and rods going to the firewall (no wacky top-mounted intercooler in the way); it would be easy to make a 3-point brace using the stock bolt holes. Engine bay is plenty long and wide - you could put an LS1 under the hood if you wanted to, but the oil pan would need surgery and the front of the V8 engine would sit pretty far forward. The battery is huge and begging for a lightweight replacement (-20 pounds). There's tons of room for a FMIC when they make a turbo version (maybe in a year or so). Front end cosmetics are good and the lighting is well done.

Interior... wow, they really did this right. Best looking interior for a 25 grand car I've ever seen. The plastics have nice tactile feel (more rubber like than plastic), and the Alcantara/leather seats in this "Limited" model were very nice. Shifter is in the right spot, the steering wheel can adjust for tilt and telescope, plenty of head room, plenty of interior width (not knocking shoulders with your passenger, like in an NA/NB Miata or Elise), and the materials are great.

The stock seats are awesome, and almost as good as the ones in the EVO X MR. Like the EVO seats, they won't work at all for fat guys (hey, calling it like it is - sorry) but you won't be tempted to swap them out for race seats unless it becomes a full-on caged race car. The height adjustment of the all-manual (thank you!) seats has a large range, and both Matt (vertically challenged) and I could each fit in the car with a race helmet on. The center stack on this Limited model had automatic climate control, and if it works like on other Subarus (as in: not well), I'd skip the Limited package and get the "base" model for $2K or so less. The auto climate control, heated seats, rear wing, and leather inserts on the seat edges are all that goes into this pricier Limited model... I'd pass, but its not a big deal either way (supposedly only a 16 pound difference between the US packages).

The total height of the roof was super short (comes up to the bottom of my rib cage), and shorter than any Subaru I've ever seen by a foot or more. The rear wing from the Limited package does sort of make the rear lines look "right", so it might be worth the extra bucks of this Limited package just to get that. Or add your own later.

The rear seat is... very limited. Small children or child seats, maybe. With me sitting fairly upright in my normal driving position, at 6'3" tall, the front seat back was 2-3" from touching the rear seat bottom (almost zero rear seat leg room). The front seat could slide back that extra few inches, to where the seats touch (zero rear leg room), and I had to really reach for the controls... so I suspect up to a 6'7" driver would fit - there is a lot of head room. With a slimmer seat bottom (custom floor bracket) even these tall folks could race the car with a helmet on. Surprisingly roomy up front... but not so much in the back seat. The rear seats fold flat and you can fit a set of wheels and tires there, though.

Not to mention, there's a full sized spare wheel and tire, and a scissor jack and tire iron back there. So figure on losing another 45 lbs when the "trunk junk" is removed. Whatever the actual weights end up being (if you take the middle of the range of weights I've seen published that might be ~2700 lbs?), figure you could take out another 100-175 pounds from exhaust, battery and trunk junk in STX autocross trim. And that's the only logical ST class it should go into - its close to the RX8's 2800 lb weight and 200 horsepower (and low torque), but has less tire room (245/40/17 should fit but 255/40/17 might be a tick too tall to clear up front and full lock).

This blue exterior color looked HAWT in the sunlight as it rolled in, super quietly

Should be fun tinkering with this thing, regardless. Matt has a deposit on one already, but not at Subaru of Plano - those jokers were taking $1000 non-nonrefundable deposits on a car they didn't know the prices of. And marking them up $900 over MSRP for "paint protection" dealer add-on crap, that you couldn't opt out of. Sleazeballs. "We're only getting 15 for the year!" I suspect the low production numbers predictions are total BS, but who knows. Its a $25K car - its not going to be super exclusive, you know? Once they start cranking these out, I think they will be made in "Miata like" numbers.

Again, all 40+ pictures I took are avilable here. I will post info and pics as soon as we get our hands on one - within the first hour of one arriving here at the Vorshlag shop it will be corner weighed, measured, disassembled, and the rest of the car will be dissected and weighed further. We have several new FT86 specific products in mind - some will be developed before it arrives, the rest soon after. I will share them during development, too.

Cheers,
__________________
Terry Fair - Vorshlag Motorsports - https://www.vorshlag.com

# ? Feb 26, 2012 01:05

cakesmith handyman: Jul 22, 2007; Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

I don't know who vorshlag are but my interest is not in slamming it to the ground & altering the suspension geometry of a car I've never driven :rolleyes:

however the ability to lose 100+lbs with new exhaust & battery is a nice bonus.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 01:16

Seat Safety Switch: May 27, 2008; MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.; Pillbug

Vorshlag is a fairly popular supplier of suspension gubbins for autocrossers - they make some super nice camber/caster plates for my car and offer a variety of custom-tuned coilover setups. They are really popular in the Mini world.

But yes, slamming it for slamming's sake is probably not going to end up with a spectacular result.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 01:32

japtor: Oct 28, 2005

I liked the part about the tires, they're garbage therefore the previews were all garbage!

# ? Feb 26, 2012 02:25

OXBALLS DOT COM: Sep 11, 2005; by FactsAreUseless; Young Orc

They better make it easy to get rid of the inevitable nav system lockout for when you're in motion, because that poo poo is the worst. I wish there was an enthusiast community that hacked factory nav units like they do for cell phones. The silver plastic trim in the Subaru version looks pretty bad, too, but the bodywork looks much cleaner and I've always liked the STi alcantara seats from their other cars.

I also think this car would look amazing in deep green. I wonder what it would cost to get a wrap or something.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 03:17

Dick Burglar: Mar 6, 2006

I'm absolutely shocked that it has a full-size spare. Those are like unicorns these days.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 03:19

CAT INTERCEPTOR: Nov 9, 2004; Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

I think I'll sell the 04 STI off, it's simply not doing anything these days. Trying to have two turbo race machines is too much and I would love to get the first one off the boat

Wish list -

- Absolutly bare bones interior. If there's no radio option, I will take it.
- Biggest brakes I can get, so that'll be the STI options.
- STI suspension / wing kit
- A aftermarket lightweight exhaust
- I can swap rims and tyres between the WRX and the BRZ.
- Subaru's traditional ECU openess and ability
- I dont mind DBW IF it follows exactly what my foot commands. Sounds like it will
- Kits to crank on castor/camber come out fairly quickly.
- Ease of installing 6 point harness / half cage.
- Release date of July / August
- Really is as good as it sounds on a track or a tarmac rally
- Under 40K AUD

If I can worm another 20Kw out of the engine that'll be nice

# ? Feb 26, 2012 04:08

2ndclasscitizen: Jan 2, 2009; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Cat Terrist posted:

I think I'll sell the 04 STI off, it's simply not doing anything these days. Trying to have two turbo race machines is too much and I would love to get the first one off the boat

Wish list -

- Absolutly bare bones interior. If there's no radio option, I will take it.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/24/subaru-announces-stripped-out-track-minded-brz-for-uk/ Not a loving chance it'll come down here though.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 04:24

CAT INTERCEPTOR: Nov 9, 2004; Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

2ndclasscitizen posted:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/24/subaru-announces-stripped-out-track-minded-brz-for-uk/ Not a loving chance it'll come down here though.

quote:

by omitting items like the LSD

That's a very strange thing to remove for weight reduction reasons, it's not that much weight at all. Plus the stock one is a torsen, that's pretty decent choice and you would have to set up a plated diff well to beat that

http://www.tune86.com/ft-86-news/17563-subaru-brz-official-jdm-price-details

What Japan is getting

# ? Feb 26, 2012 04:38

Jean Eric Burn: Nov 10, 2007

I bet you a dollar they took off the LSD because of drifters.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 04:43

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Piano posted:

I bet you a dollar they took off the LSD because of drifters.

Or it may just not need one, for the same reason the Elise doesn't come with an LSD.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 05:04

ppp: Feb 13, 2012; by angerbot

Seat Safety Switch posted:

Apparently Vorshlag and a few others have had their way with measuring a display model. At the risk of being a jerk, here's what they had to say (emphasis mine):

Wikipedia says the e36 m3 coupe is 67.3" wide. If that's measuring from the middle of the tires then it doesn't sound like the brz is actually wider than the m3 at all. And if the two cars are measured the same, then it's still only an inch wider. And with the tires, they are still about as wide as the stock ones that came on an e36 m3, so it really sounds like he's just complaining that the car isn't the track special he wanted.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 05:17

CAT INTERCEPTOR: Nov 9, 2004; Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

Throatwarbler posted:

Or it may just not need one, for the same reason the Elise doesn't come with an LSD.

Ummmm the Elise definitely needs an LSD. The BRZ will not be drift machine without one either. What I think Subaru would be thinking is that for the stripper version, some will just be tossing the std unit and putting in some sort of Cusco or KAAZ that has silly numbers that means exactly nothing to what the diff really does so why bother putting in a costly and very decent option if it's ripped out?

# ? Feb 26, 2012 05:19

Franco Caution: Jul 18, 2003; Wicked. Tricksy. False.

quote:

-BRZ will have steering wheel buttons.

-The stock seats are awesome, and almost as good as the ones in the EVO X MR.

I'm slowly starting to care more and more about this vehicle now.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 14:22

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

That guy has some interesting points but even if the car is in miata-like volumes that's 5700 units, divided by Subaru NA's dealer network (about 370 or so), giving 15 units per dealer per year, so the guy at the dealer clearly knows a hell of a lot more about how many cars they'll receive as compared to some guy who tunes cars for a living, which makes sense.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 17:01

Ether Frenzy: Dec 22, 2006; Nap Ghost

I'll be surprised if Bumblefuck, Wyoming's Subaru dealer gets as many as each of the 8 Subaru dealers in Los Angeles will.

So units/dealers = 15 is probably a guess based on simple math, with a helping of dealer dishonesty thrown in to gouge people for extra money.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 21:29

Laserface: Dec 24, 2004

Cat Terrist posted:

I think I'll sell the 04 STI off, it's simply not doing anything these days. Trying to have two turbo race machines is too much and I would love to get the first one off the boat

Wish list -

- Absolutly bare bones interior. If there's no radio option, I will take it.
- Biggest brakes I can get, so that'll be the STI options.
- STI suspension / wing kit
- A aftermarket lightweight exhaust
- I can swap rims and tyres between the WRX and the BRZ.
- Subaru's traditional ECU openess and ability
- I dont mind DBW IF it follows exactly what my foot commands. Sounds like it will
- Kits to crank on castor/camber come out fairly quickly.
- Ease of installing 6 point harness / half cage.
- Release date of July / August
- Really is as good as it sounds on a track or a tarmac rally
- Under 40K AUD

If I can worm another 20Kw out of the engine that'll be nice

The biggest brakes you can get are probably the TRD ones - 6 pot front and 4 pot rear. although the direct price conversion from trd.co.jps price was $10,000 AUD.

# ? Feb 26, 2012 23:37

track day bro!: Feb 17, 2005; #essereFerrari; Grimey Drawer

Laserface posted:

The biggest brakes you can get are probably the TRD ones - 6 pot front and 4 pot rear. although the direct price conversion from trd.co.jps price was $10,000 AUD.

Honestly those seem like overkill for a car like this. Also if the hubs are simmilar to other subie hubs I wonder if sti brakes will end up a common upgrade.

Although I bet some decent pads/fluid will be enough for most people if they track the car.

Edit: arent the standard brakes 4 pot fronts and 2 pot rear anyway?

# ? Feb 27, 2012 02:30

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Ether Frenzy posted:

I'll be surprised if Bumblefuck, Wyoming's Subaru dealer gets as many as each of the 8 Subaru dealers in Los Angeles will.

So units/dealers = 15 is probably a guess based on simple math, with a helping of dealer dishonesty thrown in to gouge people for extra money.

I'm guessing Plano, TX is not a tremendously high volume Subaru store but what do I know?

# ? Feb 27, 2012 04:53

Belldandy: Sep 11, 2001; Do not try to boost in peace, because that is impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth, there is no boost.

Idiot race posted:

Honestly those seem like overkill for a car like this. Also if the hubs are simmilar to other subie hubs I wonder if sti brakes will end up a common upgrade.

Although I bet some decent pads/fluid will be enough for most people if they track the car.

Edit: arent the standard brakes 4 pot fronts and 2 pot rear anyway?

A caliper upgrade is really necessary only in cars which have inherent problems due to poor caliper design (4th Gen Mustang) or issues with pad thickness (C5 Corvette). I suspect the BRZ will have none of these issues hence anyone who spends money on a cool tooner kit without first upgrading their fluid and pad compound is a certified car moron.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 05:04

Meatsicle: Sep 11, 2001; by FactsAreUseless

This car is drop-dead gorgeous. If only it had some more horses, I'd go drop a deposit right now.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 05:25

track day bro!: Feb 17, 2005; #essereFerrari; Grimey Drawer

Belldandy posted:

A caliper upgrade is really necessary only in cars which have inherent problems due to poor caliper design (4th Gen Mustang) or issues with pad thickness (C5 Corvette). I suspect the BRZ will have none of these issues hence anyone who spends money on a cool tooner kit without first upgrading their fluid and pad compound is a certified car moron.

Doesnt the 370Z have brake problems on track? or is it just the standard pad compound, but then again the 370 is a fair bit heavier and has more power anyway.

I mean I did say those trd brakes look like overkill on a car like this anyway and that a pad/fluid change would be the way to go first.

The only thing I dont like is that the calipers are the slider type, but I guess its a price thing.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 05:43

oRenj9: Aug 3, 2004; Who loves oRenj soda?!?; College Slice

Idiot race posted:

Doesnt the 370Z have brake problems on track? or is it just the standard pad compound, but then again the 370 is a fair bit heavier and has more power anyway.

That's an issue with the aerodynamics on the Z. AFAIK, installing cooling ducts fixes the issue.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 06:21

Laserface: Dec 24, 2004

someone mentioned that STI brembos from a certain year STI should bolt straight on.

I do agree that the TRD options are gigantic overkill, but gently caress, they look awesome.

EDIT:

blk posted:

I don't what I've seen of the F-RS center stack:

I like what I've seen of the BRZ stack better. I think this might only be in the Limited trim:

Is Scion going to have an option that will include this improved center stack?

Just saw you post this on the FRS forum and it was pretty hilarious how :smug:

some of the posts were, and how many low content/SA bannable posts were used to put you in your place.

no to mention my favorite one directed at another poster that was along the lines of "well I guess you havent spent a lot of time researching the BRZ :smug:

Car isnt even on sale yet and the community is full of douchebags.

Laserface fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Feb 27, 2012

# ? Feb 27, 2012 07:03

Dick Burglar: Mar 6, 2006

Laserface posted:

Car isnt even on sale yet and the community is full of douchebags.

Welcome to car forums.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 08:23

CAT INTERCEPTOR: Nov 9, 2004; Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

I dunno if the TRD brakes are overkill. Not for me they wont be, I'm the last of the late brakers and it'll cop some loving hard track work. But to begin with, the STI brakes will be fine

# ? Feb 27, 2012 10:30

Mental Hospitality: Jan 5, 2011

Dick Burglar posted:

Welcome to car forums.

Slight derail: I signed up at Focus Fanatics because I've been looking into the new Focus as my next car, and there was a thread about the new Dodge Dart. Half the posts were "It's just a rebadged Neon, now with Fiat electronics, it will suck!"

Seriously? :psyboom:

Depending on the cost of FR-S though, I may just say "to hell with the Focus", since I'm sure even the Scion will be a lot more thriftier on fuel than my drat SHO.

edit: There's that weird cross-shopping again.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 12:21

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

I think I'm cross shopping the Fiat 500 Abarth, the BRZ, some sort of gofast version of the Dart, the Focus ST and the 128 so I completely understand nonsense cross-shops.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 13:38

Sockington: Jul 26, 2003

Laserface posted:

someone mentioned that STI brembos from a certain year STI should bolt straight on.

2004 would have the 5x100 bolt pattern the BRZ is stuck with.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 13:42

Guinness: Sep 15, 2004

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

I think I'm cross shopping the Fiat 500 Abarth, the BRZ, some sort of gofast version of the Dart, the Focus ST and the 128 so I completely understand nonsense cross-shops.

The last time I bought a car (last year), I was cross-shopping the WRX, S2000, A3, and 330Ci. So, yeah, weird competition.

I don't get why so many people in AI think that people don't cross-shop across segments. Even my non-AI friends do car shopping starting out with "okay, my budget is X, what good/cool/fun cars can I get for that?", and then start eliminating from there.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 18:40

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 13:18

jamal: Apr 15, 2003; I'll set the building on fire

Sockington posted:

2004 would have the 5x100 bolt pattern the BRZ is stuck with.

for the front, any calipers plus 04 rotors.
for the rear, they have to be 08+ sti calipers and 08+ sti rotors redrilled to 5x100. The 04 rear rotors won't work because the spacing between the rotor hub and caliper mount is different.

Also, since the front calipers mount on the leading side of the rotor and the pistons are staggered, you would have to swap the bleed screws and crossover lines to the opposite side.

# ? Feb 27, 2012 20:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > The Toyobaru thread: We got the car we asked for, and WE'RE ALL ANGRY ABOUT IT

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